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Grand Union approved for Cardiff to London open access by ORR from December 2024

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4-SUB 4732

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How many passengers travel in groups of six these days? Compartments are only popular when people get one to themselves. You only have to go to a preserved railway to see the frown you get when you join someone in a compartment.
The only way this works is if you do what the Italians do and make it into a sort of conference room designed explicitly for business group travel. Even then, I don’t see it. It’s a silly idea for London to Carmarthen. Edinburgh maybe, Carmarthen not.
 
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route101

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The only way this works is if you do what the Italians do and make it into a sort of conference room designed explicitly for business group travel. Even then, I don’t see it. It’s a silly idea for London to Carmarthen. Edinburgh maybe, Carmarthen not.

Yes they are great for groups but a single traveller a bit claustrophobic when I have used them in Europe. Prefer looking down an open carriage.
 

stj

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About time GWR got some competition from South Wales to London.Fares on this route are far too high.Most in South Wales are not on "London wages"
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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About time GWR got some competition from South Wales to London.Fares on this route are far too high.Most in South Wales are not on "London wages"
You say that, but I can often get a £17 advance from Cardiff to London or even a £35/£40 (with railcard) walk-up off peak ticket, whereas a journey of similar distance and time on Avanti West Coast or LNER will usually cost more than double.
 

RailWonderer

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Lumo and Hull Trains have been very successful so far so no surprise they want this Grand Union to work.

How many passengers travel in groups of six these days? Compartments are only popular when people get one to themselves. You only have to go to a preserved railway to see the frown you get when you join someone in a compartment.
Back in the day the person would have smiled and said, oh hello, my travel partner for 2 hours, how do you do? :D
 
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JonathanH

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Hull Trains have been very sucessfull so far
I wonder how Hull Trains is actually doing without the peak business travel income it used to have? I suspect they are finding paying for five 802s challenging and aren't on the stable footing you think is assured.
 

Parallel

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You say that, but I can often get a £17 advance from Cardiff to London or even a £35/£40 (with railcard) walk-up off peak ticket, whereas a journey of similar distance and time on Avanti West Coast or LNER will usually cost more than double.
I agree, I always found the off-peak, super off-peak and advance fares very reasonable London-Swindon to/from South/West Wales.

I can’t imagine GWR will be too happy about another company competing with them on one of their key routes, and wonder if extending to Carmarthen more often is them standing their ground…
 
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Horizon22

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I agree, I always found the off-peak, super off-peak and advance fares very reasonable London-Swindon to/from South/West Wales.

I can’t imagine GWR will be too happy about another company competing with them on one of their key route, and wonder if extending to Carmarthen more often is them standing their ground…

They won't but apparently the hordes of people on these forums complaining about the current Reading and Swindon stops will showcase the high demand for the service!

I don't see theoretically an issue with an "express" S. Wales service - LNER has competition along its route for some time now and seems to be doing just fine.
 

Peter Sarf

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There is competition. It’s called national express. @Peter Sarf can explain.
Ah right

Return coach for one person London to Cardiff next Friday after 18:00 returning Following Sunday after 18:00 so popular times for a weekend away (or I see many London workers returning home to South Wales for the weekend).

National Express cheapest £18.80, upto £22.20. Only a few days earlier about £15.
Megabus cheapest £15.96 upto £20.16. Availability on the return has declined in the last few days. Only a few days earlier around £12 iirc.
Flixbus (new to this route) £11.48 upto £19.48. But that is returning earlier than 18:00 - availability gone iirc (maybe never there).

Further ahead for for 25-27/11/2022 return is
National Express £15.80.
Megabus £13.56.
 
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Techniquest

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Those are good fares, no-one can surely argue against that, but it does mean enduring the M4. I've done Megabus and National Express long-haul plenty of times in my budget days, I would certainly choose the train in preference. Much, much nicer to travel on an IET than a coach! If I was in need of urgent travel and the budget was being stretched, then I'd have to consider the coach, but I'd have to be desperate!
 

Dai Corner

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Those are good fares, no-one can surely argue against that, but it does mean enduring the M4. I've done Megabus and National Express long-haul plenty of times in my budget days, I would certainly choose the train in preference. Much, much nicer to travel on an IET than a coach! If I was in need of urgent travel and the budget was being stretched, then I'd have to consider the coach, but I'd have to be desperate!
Or hire a car?
 

JonathanH

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GWR have recently increased many of the advance fares on their network. The coaches haven't yet followed suit. To be honest, there would be considerable scope for the coach operators to each separately take decisions to increase prices. (I recognise that the coach companies taking a combined decision would be illegal.)

Cheapest advance fare from Cardiff to London at any time on Wednesday 16 November is £27.60 single. That is £55 return. The days of advance fares being cheap is gone.
 
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Techniquest

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Or hire a car?

For someone like me, that isn't an option, as I cannot currently drive. Circumstances being what they are, I'm having to soon begin learning. Not through choice, I would rather not do so, I dislike driving and get really wound up last time I tried to do it. Somehow I have to find a way to deal with that, and the anxiety things like parking and hill starts give me!

Wish me luck!

I'm looking to go to London very soon, and I did actually look up the coaches but they were poorly timed for the way back. The trains actually work out better as it turns out :D Coach fares may be cheap, but they're cheap for a reason!
 

Envoy

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The buses can get stuck on the M4 in mega jams - especially as the Welsh Government refuse to build a new motorway south of Newport. Some buses also take detours into Bristol and maybe Chepstow. Flixbus sometimes hire in any old bus they can get hold off - hence you don’t see their branding on the side.

If Grand Union do get permission to operate Carmarthen to London every other hour via the Swansea District Line, then surely something else will also have to operate this line to at least provide an hourly service at a new Felindre Parkway station? I would suggest that the Manchester’s still go via Swansea as that city will already be losing the every other hour service that is being switched to Cardiff to Manchester only - apart from one early and late train. So, what plugs the gap on the District Line? Perhaps the TfW Cheltenham to Maesteg* service could be extended to west Wales - but do they have enough FLIRTS to do that - probably not? Perhaps the Heart of Wales trains could be diverted to link with Cardiff direct from Pontarddulais with a bus link provided to Llanelli? (Swansea passengers would lose out). * Maesteg could be served by an Ebbw Vale to Maesteg service.

Another possibility would be to build a new station (with M4 parkway) in the triangle just south of Pontarddulais. This would enable passengers to/from the Heart of Wales Line to easily change trains with the express trains now using the Swansea District Line. Such a station could also have bus links to places like Cross Hands and Capel Hendre and perhaps even run through to Carmarthen via the National Botanic Garden of Wales. The fast services from Cardiff to this link with the Heart of Wales Line would surely boost tourist traffic for those doing the 'southern Wales triangle’ including The Marches Line.
 
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Techniquest

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I do like that idea about the new station near Pontarddulais, it would certainly have potential for a lot of use if the bus links were there too.
 

Western 52

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I do like that idea about the new station near Pontarddulais, it would certainly have potential for a lot of use if the bus links were there too.
Yes, I like that idea too. Right next to J48 so a natural Parkway location. Add in a Llanelli to Ammanford hourly service connecting with the main line services. Pontarddulais has grown massively in recent decades and really needs a better train service. Ammanford services could run to the former town station, right in the centre.
 

Peter Sarf

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GWR have recently increased many of the advance fares on their network. The coaches haven't yet followed suit. To be honest, there would be considerable scope for the coach operators to each separately take decisions to increase prices. (I recognise that the coach companies taking a combined decision would be illegal.)

Cheapest advance fare from Cardiff to London at any time on Wednesday 16 November is £27.60 single. That is £55 return. The days of advance fares being cheap is gone.
I would say that very roughly the coach fares have doubled since Covid with now only every other seat being occupied. So the coach revenue is probably unchanged but I pay more for more breathing space.

Big change is most (all ?) f the Megabus services to/from Cardiff go via Heathrow. Flixbus do the same thing so Megabus might be aimed at competing with Flixbus.

You say that, but I can often get a £17 advance from Cardiff to London or even a £35/£40 (with railcard) walk-up off peak ticket, whereas a journey of similar distance and time on Avanti West Coast or LNER will usually cost more than double.
Pray tell - how ?. I would be tempted at £17 for a change. Depends if it is available for the peak time Friday eve but I would still do it occasionally. I could even bring the Granddaughter that way as she is half fare on rail and she likes trains so it would be a treat.
 

mikeb42

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GWR have recently increased many of the advance fares on their network.

True and indeed quite the understatement.

In effect, prices have increased massively across the board on the routes from S Wales and Bristol in a few short years.

Not that long ago it was routinely possible to easily pick up undiscounted tickets for return journeys Bristol-Paddington for £20, Cardiff-Paddington for £23, Chippenham-Paddington for £12. This wasn't just for one ticket on one train at 5am purchased 1 second after 3 months prior to travel - it was for most services outside the obvious busy times, often purchased not that far in advance of travel and there were clearly many available on each train.

Now the absolute minimum is £40.80 for Bristol and £53.60 for Cardiff - the latter an increase to 233% of the former fare. That's before taking into account obviously more limited quotas making it harder to obtain even these inflated prices.

I and colleagues continue to make some journeys on this route by train. As they are mostly either counter-flow (i.e. into London in the mid afternoon) or at quiet times late at night or early morning, the trains concerned are never full, usually nowhere near it. Well, except for the grim and now routine experience of their being short-formed for the nth time...

Overall the combination of unreliability, unpunctuality, frequent short-forming, price gouging and general inconvenience frequently tips the balance in favour of the car+tube alternative instead. This is a stupid outcome in my view, particularly in environmental terms, and I keep trying to use the train on the increasingly rare occasions when they're not on strike or the line between Reading and Paddington hasn't descended into chaos yet again.

Some price competition on parts of this route would therefore be very welcome. Even if none of the other problems with it can really be addressed, someone undercutting GWR might exert some pressure to get pricing under control.
 

JonathanH

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Even if none of the other problems with it can really be addressed, someone undercutting GWR might exert some pressure to get pricing under control.
I imagine pricing is seen as being under control. With the implementation of electrification (to the extent achieved) and the IET fleet, now is the time to pay for it and it seems natural that prices have increased to reflect the investment. BR did this as well - eg higher fares on the ECML after electrification than on the WCML in the early 1990s.

The tricky thing is getting the balance right. When I travelled from Reading to Gloucester a few Saturday mornings ago the railway seemed very quiet but it was fairly early in the day. There was still a reasonable number of people taking the train up to London from the Cheltenham route. It comes down to people's need to travel and how price elastic that is.

I dont think the place of an open access operator is to come in and offer fares if that isn't an economic reality. They will just go out of business. Whether there is untapped demand on the South Wales route to London is a moot question at the current time.
 

Envoy

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The question is whether GWR are running trains with many empty seats? Sure, you need a few but if large numbers of empty seats are available, then that is surely potential revenue lost. Some people must travel but others would use the trains for leisure if the price was low enough. Remember how the likes of Ryan Air and Easyjet came along with low fares and massively boosted the number of people flying compared to the old days when it would be just state run British Airways charging sky high fares for the wealthy. Competition is what is needed - something that is sadly lacking on many rail routes in Britain.

Good to see some of you backing my idea for a new parkway station at Pontarddulais with an interchange with the Heart of Wales line. With reasonable fares and fast trains to Cardiff & beyond, it would help take some of the traffic off the overloaded 2 lane M4 in the Swansea & Port Talbot area.
 

Horizon22

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The question is whether GWR are running trains with many empty seats? Sure, you need a few but if large numbers of empty seats are available, then that is surely potential revenue lost. Some people must travel but others would use the trains for leisure if the price was low enough. Remember how the likes of Ryan Air and Easyjet came along with low fares and massively boosted the number of people flying compared to the old days when it would be just state run British Airways charging sky high fares for the wealthy. Competition is what is needed - something that is sadly lacking on many rail routes in Britain.

Good to see some of you backing my idea for a new parkway station at Pontarddulais with an interchange with the Heart of Wales line. With reasonable fares and fast trains to Cardiff & beyond, it would help take some of the traffic off the overloaded 2 lane M4 in the Swansea & Port Talbot area.

Not my experience on weekends on many routes. Major problems with overcrowding across most of the day (but particularly peak times of 1100-1300 and 1700-1900), even with 9 or 10 car trains. Services to Oxford are packed pretty much all day.
 

AlastairFraser

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Its hardly Piccadilly Circus congestion-wise though, unless you are travelling on a summer Saturday.

Right now, smack in the morning peak, with a train strike on, it’s a 17 minute drive from the site of the proposed parkway and Port Talbot (According to Google maps). I agree that journey time would be little different between rail and car, but Port Talbot will always have a much better service to the east than this proposed parkway, and will remain far more attractive.

The regional metro is no use if it doesn’t serve the local city.
But the regional metro is going to serve the city eventually, this is just an initial phase.
Port Talbot may be a suitable alternative for current demand, but a closer parkway to Swansea would induce more locals to use the service due to proximity.
Local public transport connections for especially north Swansea including a large hospital would link into this station much better than travelling into Swansea and out again on the mainline.
 

JonathanH

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Services to Oxford are packed pretty much all day.
Many Oxford trains are formed of 5 coaches though and people don't wait for those with longer formations.

Major problems with overcrowding across most of the day (but particularly peak times of 1100-1300 and 1700-1900), even with 9 or 10 car trains.
How much is done to try and move passengers to the more lightly loaded services?

Does the presence of an apparent Saturday peak bode well for an open access operator who might only be able to get one service, if that, within that period?
 

Horizon22

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Many Oxford trains are formed of 5 coaches though and people don't wait for those with longer formations.


How much is done to try and move passengers to the more lightly loaded services?

Does the presence of an apparent Saturday peak bode well for an open access operator who might only be able to get one service, if that, within that period?

That is true, and an issue. It’s probably the only place on route that a 10-car split would be sensible considering how over half the train tips out at Oxford.

As for your latter point, that’s when people want to travel on the weekend; a later start to the day, go into town for shopping / lunch / activities and head back not too late. Don’t think there’s much ability to move people into later services if that’s going to delay their journeys. Just like in a peak - how many commuters would be happy with someone asking “do you want to take this service 30 minutes later?” There are some “weekend peak extras” but not many and GWR especially has issues with how many sets Hitachi are contractually obliged to offer.
 

mrmartin

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I would say that very roughly the coach fares have doubled since Covid with now only every other seat being occupied. So the coach revenue is probably unchanged but I pay more for more breathing space.

This hasn't been the case for ages now? I get NX fairly frequently to/from Stansted and this stopped maybe a year ago?
 

Techniquest

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This hasn't been the case for ages now? I get NX fairly frequently to/from Stansted and this stopped maybe a year ago?

Certainly didn't apply to National Express on my ride with them today, and Megabus had stopped such a policy last year. NX would have done too but I don't know when. The whole physical distancing thing stopped ages ago, and don't even get me started on such things because we could be here a while!
 

Peter Sarf

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This hasn't been the case for ages now? I get NX fairly frequently to/from Stansted and this stopped maybe a year ago?

Certainly didn't apply to National Express on my ride with them today, and Megabus had stopped such a policy last year. NX would have done too but I don't know when. The whole physical distancing thing stopped ages ago, and don't even get me started on such things because we could be here a while!
I have not seen any ENFORCED social distancing. It is just me observation that about half the seats are unoccupied. That is the London/Cardiff coach route so I will see on Friday evening !. If the coach is then full then that means I am paying roughly double and National Express must be recovering the losses I assume they accrued over Covid.
 

WelshBluebird

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Worth saying that I made the coach journey to London from Bristol and back on the weekend just gone and NatEx were able to put multiple coach loads of passengers on a single service in order to reduce disruption caused by delays on the M4 (so on average each service must have been less than half full originally to get 2 lots of booked customers onto a single coach).
 
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