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TPE Liverpool - Cleethorpes Timetable 2022

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Ianno87

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That would be my view, however when I suggested this the response was “nah, that would be too much faffing around, and what it the connection got cancelled?”.

Illogical on a number of fronts, not least that there’s just as much chance of the Clee-Airport service being turned short, or even being cancelled outright.

What would perhaps be more of an issue is on the return journey having to board the Cleethorpes service at Piccadilly through platforms mid-journey, as opposed to boarding at origin, but people don’t seem to think about getting back from the airport, only getting *to* it!

For me I’d have it going to Liverpool, but then I don’t live in North-East Lincs and I don’t generally do foreign holidays…

I get the impression that Cleethorpes/Grimsby-ites see it as "that's the train you get to go on holiday!" (I overhead that exact phrase once!)

But yes, I'd wager that curtailing the service at Piccadilly was probably necessary quite often anyway to recover the service, and there's hardly a shortage of connecting Piccadilly-Airport trains. Or, if push came to shove, a taxi from Stockport!
 
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bramling

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I get the impression that Cleethorpes/Grimsby-ites see it as "that's the train you get to go on holiday!" (I overhead that exact phrase once!)

But yes, I'd wager that curtailing the service at Piccadilly was probably necessary quite often anyway to recover the service, and there's hardly a shortage of connecting Piccadilly-Airport trains. Or, if push came to shove, a taxi from Stockport!

That’s exactly it, either to go to Manchester Airport, or for one-off rail journeys to elsewhere via connections at Doncaster. Certainly there has always IME been a quite substantial turnover of passengers at Doncaster.

But for the airport journeys I’d imagine the service could be split at Sheffield if it were operationally beneficial to do that, without too much fuss.
 

Killingworth

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A friend of mine in Cleethorpes isn’t happy, as they (pre Covid) used to use this service to the airport regularly - it was their usual means of going on holiday. He says this is common practice in that area.

But having said that I tend to agree that the potential for regular journeys to Liverpool outweighs a handful of irregular airport journeys.
As one who uses the TPE South Pennine services I can confirm that pre-Covid there were significant numbers travelling regularly to the airport, including those boarding in Grimsby, Scunthorpe and Doncaster, not so many from Cleethorpes. On the one occasion I boarded the 5.09 out of Sheffield at Dore I was one of 6 that day. The other 5 all went on to the airport. The following early morning trains always had a few airport users too. It's not just holiday makers and business travellers using the trains. TPE had a special railcard for regulars commuting to the airport both as air crew and ground staff. Further evidence of airport demand was the number of cars left in the free Dore car park for a week or two while away! That's stopped now.

However, I'd agree that the much bigger majority wanted Manchester city centre, or various connections from Piccadilly, north, south and west. Running 6 coaches through to the airport was too much capacity. Operationally splitting and reversing.... was not good! A quick same platform change on many stations would be fine. The scrum on Platforms 13/14 is not a very attractive prospect for any journey.

In truth quite a lot were going to the airport on EMR (from the East Midlands) and Northern (much cheaper) trains, happy enough to change at Piccadilly. It's the business people who want a comfortable and fast journey, often happy to travel first class.

If the Sheffield - Liverpool route is increased to 2 tph there may be an increase in through journeys. At present EMR route's reliability doesn't attract new custom. They tended to be very crowded across Oxford Road/Piccadilly as users from the universities were joined by those going east catching it there to miss mayhem at Piccadilly. I never saw large numbers from Sheffield carrying on west beyond Oxford Road. A 6 coach TPE service, running to time, will be a big incentive for more to make the journey to and from Liverpool.
 

175mph

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Upon studying the westbound timetable, I really liked how there will now be later departures out of Cleethorpes/Grimsby. I can see the extra times both east and westbound opening up job opportunities for some people. :smile:
 

stephen rp

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It's fine to go via Castlefield, provided that you have decent turnround before coming back again. And the Liverpool-Cleethorpes working is part of the general thinning out of service to make the whole thing robust.

Adding an extra stop potentially makes the different between a decent 16 minute turnround time, and a getting-cosy 10 minute turnround time (adding 3 minutes or so each way)
Except on the draft timetable it would be a difference between 24 mins and a decent 19 mins (current Airport service 18 mins). If that's not realistic because of inbound delays, it's daft to send it via Castlefield. I'm still not sure why reversing in Piccadilly is that difficult (4 mins occupying a platform rather than a longer turnround time).

At least the current Norwich - Liverpool can recover 20 minutes or so by taking the Dore curve and missing out Sheffield. Once a Cleethorpes service starts late it's chances of recovery aren't great, rather the reverse.

As a Sheffield user of the services I can see the Northern stopper being a very useful backup. 20 minutes longer, usually cheaper, and now with decent rolling stock.

Of course the resolved (?) Castlefield congestion will help, but delays further west and east will still happen.
On that basis, this train would indeed be a cause of delay on Castlefield, promoting further congestion.
 

Ianno87

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Except on the draft timetable it would be a difference between 24 mins and a decent 19 mins (current Airport service 18 mins). If that's not realistic because of inbound delays, it's daft to send it via Castlefield. I'm still not sure why reversing in Piccadilly is that difficult (4 mins occupying a platform rather than a longer turnround time).

But adding further stops would erode the 18 minutes further to something riskier.

The key thing is to get the train our of the Airport and build in some spare capacity there for recovery. Combining it with the Liverpool-Airport service both works nicely in the timetable and gets two hourly services out of the Airport.

Plus a 4 minute reversal at Picc means any late arrival invariably bounces back late to the Airport.
 

stephen rp

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But adding further stops would erode the 18 minutes further to something riskier.

The key thing is to get the train our of the Airport and build in some spare capacity there for recovery. Combining it with the Liverpool-Airport service both works nicely in the timetable and gets two hourly services out of the Airport.

Plus a 4 minute reversal at Picc means any late arrival invariably bounces back late to the Airport.
It would be 19 minutes with the stop at Warrington West

If it goes to Liverpool any late arrival at Piccadilly bounces it late through Picc, Ox Rd and Castlefield, causing delays (and to the Warrington-Liverpool local at Warrington if they go through with the not-very-bright idea of improving reliability by introducing 2 shunts an hour in and out of the siding at Warrington Central).
 

Ianno87

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It would be 19 minutes with the stop at Warrington West

If it goes to Liverpool any late arrival at Piccadilly bounces it late through Picc, Ox Rd and Castlefield, causing delays (and to the Warrington-Liverpool local at Warrington if they go through with the not-very-bright idea of improving reliability by introducing 2 shunts an hour in and out of the siding at Warrington Central).

The whole point of Option B+ is to thin out the Castlefield service so that some trains presenting late don't knock on for as long as they do today - make late presentation tolerable and recoverable.
 

Greybeard33

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The whole point of Option B+ is to thin out the Castlefield service so that some trains presenting late don't knock on for as long as they do today - make late presentation tolerable and recoverable.
A "Manchester Services and Infrastructure Update" paper for the 15 September Rail North Committee meeting says that:
Following [the TfN Board meeting of 27 July 2021], a positive dialogue has taken place between [Rail North] Committee Members and the DfT. As a result of the positive progress Rail North Committee Members agreed to carry on the work developing the 2022 timetable (an enhanced version of the B+ timetable proposed by the Task Force).
The Train Operators, supported by the Manchester Recovery Task Force (MRTF), are finalising detailed timetables in readiness for the second consultation process which is planned to commence this Autumn and run for a 6-week period. This will ensure that industry timetable bidding timelines are met.
The Task Force is making good progress on detailed proposals including an improved cross-Warrington service pattern and in assessing options to maintain some direct connectivity between Sheffield and Manchester Airport for inclusion in the second round of consultation.
To ensure that the timetable is delivered robustly, the Manchester Recovery Task Force will oversee timetable simulation modelling alongside the consultation of the final all-day timetable and monitoring industry readiness.
The next main milestone is the planned second phase of public consultation on the detailed timetable plans for December 2022. This is likely to commence in the next few weeks to meet industry timelines for planning and delivering a robust timetable.

I would guess that the "improved cross-Warrington service pattern" might include Warrington West calls by the Cleethorpes and/or Nottingham service.
 

tbtc

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If that is the reason did it have to be Liverpool? A through train to Preston or even Blackpool North might have been useful to provide new through journey opportunities from Sheffield. I’ve often observed that that quite a number of people get off the EMR service at Manchester Piccadilly and remain on platform 14 for the Blackpool North train.

From a South Yorkshire perspective, it'd be great if Sheffield had direct trains to Llandudno/ Holyhead/ Liverpool/ Blackpool/ Morecambe/ Lake District/ Manchester Airport etc

But, realistically, the finite number of paths through central Manchester mean that capacity would be much better if we simplified things to have half hourly services from various directions into central Manchester rather than the mess of hourly services that we had pre-Covid (for example, nine trains per hour on the Airport branch with gaps of up to seventeen minutes... a Stockport - Preston and Stockport - Liverpool service which followed each other through Castlefield within a fairly short time rather than giving a balanced service on the shared route)

So, from Sheffield, I'd be fine with a half hourly service that terminated in the main Piccadilly shed... I'd be fine with a half hourly service to Liverpool via Warrington... I'd be fine with a service through to another destination beyond Manchester too but the number of through passengers would be so small to make any pairing fairly inconsequential (in the way that it doesn't really matter whether Metrolink services from Bury go to Didsbury or Altrincham or Ashton, as long as they provide a good frequency from Bury into central Manchester)

Whilst the Warrington Central route isn't the "fast" Liverpool line (the services from Lime Street get overtaken by Chat Moss services in terms of getting into central Manchester), it's an unelectrified line that probably needs something like a four coach 158 or six coach 185 every half hour, which means it ties up pretty neatly with the "fast" Hope Valley services - the two match up pretty well.

The alternative would be generally either wasting DMUs by running them under the wires (e.g. Sheffield to Blackpool) and I'd rather that we utilised our scarce DMU fleet on the unelectrified liens where possible... or running the Sheffield services to somewhere that doesn't require the same kind of middle distance DMU (e.g. an Atherton stopper). Liverpool - Sheffield every half hour would work fine, since each side of Manchester probably deserves a fairly similar frequency/ type of train

The CLC ought to have services to 13/14 (given that it can't go to Victoria), so where else can you send them? The Airport branch is electrified, which counts against it... Buxton is a possibility (half hourly DMU service) but that's been more of a "150" route than the 158s that have tended to run faster service on the CLC

Cleethorpes is a great day out on the train (I did it last month - the station is brilliantly located in the town), but it's not about through passengers (just like Metrolink aren't designing service because of the Oldham - Eccles market). That said, they do make an effort in Cleethorpes in terms of putting on things like Armed Forces days/ Mod days, which attract a few people from outside the area.

The problem is that, if you offer people a service to Oxford Road (for the University) and the Airport then they'll say yes - everyone would prefer a service to at least one of those two if they had the chance - but we can't cope with that number of services - so we should focus more on giving places a good balanced service into central Manchester and trying to tie up the places either side based on places that deserve a similar frequency/ type of stock (e.g. unelectrified lines east of Manchester to unelectrified lines west of Manchester)
 

childwallblues

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Liverpool did have two "fast" services per hour via the CLC to Scarborough and Norwich but the Scarborough service was transferred to Chat Moss/Victoria and replaced by a Manchester Airport service.
If the Cleethorpes service runs anywhere else but Liverpool the Airport service would need to be retained to maintain the two fast services that Warrington Central has had since 1992.
 

47827

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Liverpool did have two "fast" services per hour via the CLC to Scarborough and Norwich but the Scarborough service was transferred to Chat Moss/Victoria and replaced by a Manchester Airport service.
If the Cleethorpes service runs anywhere else but Liverpool the Airport service would need to be retained to maintain the two fast services that Warrington Central has had since 1992.

With 769 units being less robust than was hoped, so far, and the problem of short formed trains on some Northern routes still existing the paths will gladly be given back to TPE for an extra through Liverpool service to replace the Airport link and get shut of the fast Airport to Liverpool. If the usage from Cleethorpes/Doncaster/Sheffield areas to the Airport is sparse (added to the reduced flight options for another year or so at least) its going to be hard to make a case against this change. Recall Cleethorpes having through trains an odd time a day to Liverpool in the 80s with 31s latterly coughing their way across the Pennines.
 

Ianno87

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Liverpool did have two "fast" services per hour via the CLC to Scarborough and Norwich but the Scarborough service was transferred to Chat Moss/Victoria and replaced by a Manchester Airport service.
If the Cleethorpes service runs anywhere else but Liverpool the Airport service would need to be retained to maintain the two fast services that Warrington Central has had since 1992.

Does Warrington Central *need* 2 semi-fast services? Currently providing those is a detriment to serving other intermediate stations more regularly. The semi-fasts arguably no longer provide a meaningful Liverpool-Manchester fast service now there are fast services via Chat Moss, so this reason for their being has now significantly diminished.

Remember also that services from Bank Quay to Mancheater have increased from 1tph to 2tph I recent years with the Northern Leeds-Chester service.
 

stephen rp

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Does Warrington Central *need* 2 semi-fast services? Currently providing those is a detriment to serving other intermediate stations more regularly. The semi-fasts arguably no longer provide a meaningful Liverpool-Manchester fast service now there are fast services via Chat Moss, so this reason for their being has now significantly diminished.

Remember also that services from Bank Quay to Mancheater have increased from 1tph to 2tph I recent years with the Northern Leeds-Chester service.
If "need' is measured by "full and standing" yes it does. Cutting Oxford Road to Warrington Central from 4 tph to 3 tph means more services overcrowded. EM already make "intermediate" stops in the peak as it is.
 

Ianno87

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If "need' is measured by "full and standing" yes it does. Cutting Oxford Road to Warrington Central from 4 tph to 3 tph means more services overcrowded. EM already make "intermediate" stops in the peak as it is.

Perhaps 3tph more evenly spread is better for passenger loadings than 4tph that bunch up at either end (meaning most stations are only effectively 2tph at most, and people pile on the first train)
 

stephen rp

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Perhaps 3tph more evenly spread is better for passenger loadings than 4tph that bunch up at either end (meaning most stations are only effectively 2tph at most, and people pile on the first train)
So no "fast" trains between Warrington and Manchester?
 

Ianno87

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So no "fast" trains between Warrington and Manchester?

So?

What is important is not absolute journey time, but Generalised Journey Time, of which both frequency and absolute journey time are component parts.
 

stephen rp

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So?

What is important is not absolute journey time, but Generalised Journey Time, of which both frequency and absolute journey time are component parts.
Nah, people turn up for the fast train (especially now they can check if it's on time).
 

Ianno87

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Nah, people turn up for the fast train (especially now they can check if it's on time).

Just miss one and it feels like a long wait on a relatively short journey.

3tph more evenly spread (on more consistent journey time) becomes closer to turn up and go.
 

stephen rp

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Just miss one and it feels like a long wait on a relatively short journey.

3tph more evenly spread (on more consistent journey time) becomes closer to turn up and go.
Not if it doesn't turn up. The present pattern means if the fast train doesn't run or is late, the local is leaving 3 mins later.
 

childwallblues

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It would be 19 minutes with the stop at Warrington West

If it goes to Liverpool any late arrival at Piccadilly bounces it late through Picc, Ox Rd and Castlefield, causing delays (and to the Warrington-Liverpool local at Warrington if they go through with the not-very-bright idea of improving reliability by introducing 2 shunts an hour in and out of the siding at Warrington Central).
There is a loop at Glazebrook westbound which the stoppers use if the fast train is late.
 

stephen rp

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There is a loop at Glazebrook westbound which the stoppers use if the fast train is late.
And under the proposed new pattern of the only Manchester-Warrington stopping service stopping all stations, going into the loop to let the EM service past would delay the stopper enough to delay the following TPE - and the EM would still be further delayed because instead of 20 minutes from Ox Rd to get into Glazebrook loop, it would be 25 (a bit less if they alternate Trafford Park and Humphrey Park with Chassen Road). A late running "fast" could also delay the Warrington-Liverpool local (or get behind it).

Maybe they have already realised that the cure may be worse than the disease.
 

Killingworth

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And under the proposed new pattern of the only Manchester-Warrington stopping service stopping all stations, going into the loop to let the EM service past would delay the stopper enough to delay the following TPE - and the EM would still be further delayed because instead of 20 minutes from Ox Rd to get into Glazebrook loop, it would be 25 (a bit less if they alternate Trafford Park and Humphrey Park with Chassen Road). A late running "fast" could also delay the Warrington-Liverpool local (or get behind it).

Maybe they have already realised that the cure may be worse than the disease.

It's not just on the west side. Late running EMR Liverpool - Norwich services often cause delays to eastbound Northern stoppers who have to wait at Chinley. They may then delay the following TPE by Grindleford. Late running TPE Cleethorpes - Manchester services often delay westbound stoppers who start late from Sheffield to follow them.

There are rarely easy answers when running fast, slow, and freight along the same limited tracks! Castlefield being the best example.
 

stephen rp

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It's not just on the west side. Late running EMR Liverpool - Norwich services often cause delays to eastbound Northern stoppers who have to wait at Chinley. They may then delay the following TPE by Grindleford. Late running TPE Cleethorpes - Manchester services often delay westbound stoppers who start late from Sheffield to follow them.

There are rarely easy answers when running fast, slow, and freight along the same limited tracks! Castlefield being the best example.
They're all doing the same speed through Castlefield! (Actually the Freightliners are the fastest as they don't - normally - stop).
 

Greybeard33

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And under the proposed new pattern of the only Manchester-Warrington stopping service stopping all stations, going into the loop to let the EM service past would delay the stopper enough to delay the following TPE - and the EM would still be further delayed because instead of 20 minutes from Ox Rd to get into Glazebrook loop, it would be 25 (a bit less if they alternate Trafford Park and Humphrey Park with Chassen Road). A late running "fast" could also delay the Warrington-Liverpool local (or get behind it).

Maybe they have already realised that the cure may be worse than the disease.
But with the current service pattern, looping either stopper at Glazebrook inevitably causes it to arrive late at Lime Street, delaying the fast behind it. Even with all the skip-stopping, the stoppers have to leave Oxford Road hard on the heels of one fast in order to get to Lime Street just before the next fast. Looping delays the stopper more than 5 minutes at Glazebrook while the late-running fast overtakes it, and often makes the fast even later if it catches up before Glazebrook. Better to hold back the stopper at Oxford Road if the fast is only a few minutes late.

The advantage of splitting the stoppers at Warrington is that Trafford Park, Humphrey Park, Chassen Road and Glazebrook will all get a regular 1tph instead of 1tp2h.
 

stephen rp

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But with the current service pattern, looping either stopper at Glazebrook inevitably causes it to arrive late at Lime Street, delaying the fast behind it. Even with all the skip-stopping, the stoppers have to leave Oxford Road hard on the heels of one fast in order to get to Lime Street just before the next fast. Looping delays the stopper more than 5 minutes at Glazebrook while the late-running fast overtakes it, and often makes the fast even later if it catches up before Glazebrook. Better to hold back the stopper at Oxford Road if the fast is only a few minutes late.

The advantage of splitting the stoppers at Warrington is that Trafford Park, Humphrey Park, Chassen Road and Glazebrook will all get a regular 1tph instead of 1tp2h.
A local looped at Glazebrook can make up most of the lost time. There's a lot of slack (see 1046 from Oxford Road on Wednesday this week). Or run SL from South Parkway.

1tph from those little-used stations to Manchester makes no sense if there's a £20m new station with 0tph to Manchester.
 

Greybeard33

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A local looped at Glazebrook can make up most of the lost time. There's a lot of slack (see 1046 from Oxford Road on Wednesday this week). Or run SL from South Parkway.

1tph from those little-used stations to Manchester makes no sense if there's a £20m new station with 0tph to Manchester.
The 1046 from Oxford Road on 08 September was 2L at Irlam then 10L at Birchwood after being looped, so delayed 8 minutes. It was still 8L at South Parkway and held up the following Northern ex-Airport, which was 4L at Wavertree Jn and still 3L arriving at Lime Street. When the stopper is more heavily loaded, acceleration is worse and station dwell times longer, so little or no slack in the timetable.

Regarding Warrington West, a paper for the Rail North Committee meeting of 15 September indicates that the MRTF is on the case:
3.9
Following [the TfN Board Meeting of 27 July 2021], a positive dialogue has taken place between Committee Members and the DfT. As a result of the positive progress Rail North Committee Members agreed to carry on the work developing the 2022 timetable (an enhanced version of the B+ timetable proposed by the Task Force). Members made it clear that, in parallel, the need to have an agreed roadmap that sets out how a longer-term solution will be developed, one that moves beyond what is possible with the 2022 timetable.
3.10
Work is taking place on a new form of collaboration between the DfT and Transport for the North that links the development of infrastructure to the roadmap of future timetable enhancements. An update on this joint work will be provided before the next phase of public consultation on the 2022 timetable.
3.12
The Train Operators, supported by the Manchester Recovery Task Force (MRTF), are finalising detailed timetables in readiness for the second consultation process which is planned to commence this Autumn and run for a 6-week period. This will ensure that industry timetable bidding timelines are met.
3.14
There is also an infrastructure investment programme progressing to support the 2022 timetable changes to support the revised pattern of services including longer platforms at some locations.
3.15
The Task Force is making good progress on detailed proposals including an improved cross-Warrington service pattern and in assessing options to maintain some direct connectivity between Sheffield and Manchester Airport for inclusion in the second round of consultation.
3.16
To ensure that the timetable is delivered robustly, the Manchester Recovery Task Force will oversee timetable simulation modelling alongside the consultation of the final all-day timetable and monitoring industry readiness.

I would guess that the "improved cross-Warrington service pattern" might involve the Cleethorpes and Nottingham services calling at Warrington West.
 

childwallblues

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Having worked at Halewood Station many years ago there were many tickets sold beyond Warrington Central to Birchwood and Manchester Statuons. The same scenario also applied to Hough Green.
It appears to me that Manchester is trying to look after itself to the detriment of the Liverpool City Region
 
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