49€ Ticket to come and worry about slashing rail services

[Watershed]

What an excellent development and well done Germany.

When are we going to have our £43 monthly rail pass Mr Sunak ?

Do note that it's on not valid on IC, ICE, EC or open access services. So it wouldn't be much use on most longer distance commutes. That being said, it's still an amazing deal and goes to show the enormous difference between the attitude to climate change and public transport here vs on the continent...

 

[yorksrob]

Do note that it's on not valid on IC, ICE, EC or open access services. So it wouldn't be much use on most longer distance commutes. That being said, it's still an amazing deal and goes to show the enormous difference between the attitude to climate change and public transport here vs on the continent...

Indeed. It's worth noting that if replicated on our current set up, one could get from London to Manchester or Liverpool relatively easily. Scotland even, in a long-winded way.

Is Germany afflicted with our short trains problem ?

I suppose, getting away from London-centricism, it would solve problems such as relatively slow, inconvenient journeys across the North being over-priced in comparison to their quality (think Leeds - Crewe or most of TPE's price gouged routes).

 

[blackfive460]

I've never travelled on it, but does the German railway network have vastly more capacity than we do ?

Simple answer; yes.

Longer answer;
At the moment, in Germany has problems with long distance trains often being late and occasionally cancelled or part cancelled but generally regional trains, which this ticket is aimed at, are reliable. Individual train capacity is usually good with many popular regional services being made up of decent length trains of double deck stock. In Germany a three car single deck train turning up for a something similar to our Trans Pennine route would be seen as some kind of joke!
Things aren't perfect in Germany but they are streets ahead of the UK.

 

[yorksrob]

Simple answer; yes.

Longer answer;
At the moment, in Germany has problems with long distance trains often being late and occasionally cancelled or part cancelled but generally regional trains, which this ticket is aimed at, are reliable. Individual train capacity is usually good with many popular regional services being made up of decent length trains of double deck stock. In Germany a three car single deck train turning up for a something similar to our Trans Pennine route would be seen as some kind of joke!
Things aren't perfect in Germany but they are streets ahead of the UK.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

So with the exception perhaps of services radiating from London, our constraint is more short trains than infrastructure !

 

[AdamWW]

What do you mean by that?

Presumably that a return costs twice what a single does, not about the same.

 

[dutchflyer]

Simple answer; yes.

Longer answer;
At the moment, in Germany has problems with long distance trains often being late and occasionally cancelled or part cancelled but generally regional trains, which this ticket is aimed at, are reliable. Individual train capacity is usually good with many popular regional services being made up of decent length trains of double deck stock. In Germany a three car single deck train turning up for a something similar to our Trans Pennine route would be seen as some kind of joke!
Things aren't perfect in Germany but they are streets ahead of the UK.

Sorry, but this is not quite so. It differs an awful lot per region, but in those I myself travel most often , the situation in ´Nahverkehr´=local transit is nearly as bad as for long-distance: cancellations, delays are rife and on many lines. In some areas where a new operator has won a contract, ti had to give up as it could not find enough staff for its promised and accepted offer in what to run. OR-f.e. on international routes where special trained staff has to be on, these are even scarcer and bustitution then comes into use for these sectors.
The main cause is widespread staffing shortages. As such DB itself seems to be in a slightly better position as its the biggest and best-known operator. All in all not really much different from most countries around.
Someone else remarked about dayreturns: these do not exist, if sold as such its simply 2x single. An again remember: about all major regions have PTE-lookalike Verkehrsverbund with integrated ticketing, mostly on zonal base. That mostly means flat fares in cities and that citybus/tram in arrival town is hence mostly included in the price. Heavy discounts are already offered for seasons, sometimes even on weekly, mostly monthly, but with the usual german burocracy around it: apply at last 10th or 15th of month before, remember to cancel also before that day in advance etc. Current price for a larger town is most often already above that 49€ mark.

 

[J-2739]

I've probably missed out on this, but will this be available for foreign tourists?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wel

What do you mean by that?

Well, I think you normally buy return journeys as two single legs, without discount.
In the UK many journeys are sold as returns with a variable discount from the 2 single legs - the cheapest (off-peak day return) can be cheaper than the single fare.
So it's hard to revise the fare structure without creating "winners and losers".
We are also obsessed with peak/off-peak fares and enforcing time restrictions, also not common elsewhere.

 

[johncrossley]

Sometime a day ticket is much less than twice the single, meaning that you effectively no longer have single leg pricing. For example, Hamburg to Bremen is 25.60 on the regional train, but the Niedersachsen-Ticket is 25.00, available after 09:00 weekdays, anytime weekends. So other than in morning peak, the single is effectively the same price as a day return

Germany may not have UK-style peak and off-peak versions of single and return tickets, but in the case above, you effectively have a peak surcharge.

 

[The exile]

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

So with the exception perhaps of services radiating from London, our constraint is more short trains than infrastructure !

Although in many cases one of the reasons for the short trains is infrastructure (short platforms) .

 

[yorksrob]

Although in many cases one of the reasons for the short trains is infrastructure (short platforms) .

But if someone came up with a sensibly costed way of lengthening platforms, the necessary railways are already there.

 

[The exile]

In Germany a three car single deck train turning up for a something similar to our Trans Pennine route would be seen as some kind of joke!
Things aren't perfect in Germany but they are streets ahead of the UK.

Although in many cases if you consider a "capacity per hour" the difference is much less - which is half the problem. "Shorter trains more often" did indeed increase passenger numbers - far more that expected/ intended.

But if someone came up with a sensibly costed way of lengthening platforms, the necessary railways are already there.

Assuming there aren't other constraints at key locations such as Salford Crescent, yes - though the other problem we have that (in the main) Germany doesn't is the massively rationalised infrastructure - particularly at major stations / junctions etc.

 

[yorksrob]

Although in many cases if you consider a "capacity per hour" the difference is much less - which is half the problem. "Shorter trains more often" did indeed increase passenger numbers - far more that expected/ intended.


Assuming there aren't other constraints at key locations such as Salford Crescent, yes - though the other problem we have that (in the main) Germany doesn't is the massively rationalised infrastructure - particularly at major stations / junctions etc.

Well, we have selective door opening. And Salford Crescent could be moved if need be.

I think that the key point is that outside of the London trains, we have the potential to run the same number of trains but longer

 

[johncrossley]

But not on LNER/XC/Avanti/GWR/TPE?

Long distance commuters in Germany are already well served by the Bahncard 100, giving unlimited travel on all trains, including ICE, IC and EC, for 4339.00 EUR per year. From May, they will also have the option of paying 588 EUR a year to restrict themselves to regional trains so maybe some commuters will switch.

 

[yorksrob]

Whatever way you look at it, our shoddy system doesn't compare well at all.

 

[Fleetmaster]

What an excellent development and well done Germany.

When are we going to have our £43 monthly rail pass Mr Sunak ?

Never.

It would take a newspaper editor five seconds to think of a way to cast such a scheme as the most communist anti-car green-lobby whackadoodle policy this country has ever seen.

Even worse, in the absence of any transformational modal shifting policies beyond the already much maligned HS2, Powerhouse Rail and Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods, it's pretty easy to cast such a scheme as both the biggest welfare giveaway ever seen (subsidising public transport for those whose lives on perma-benefits and credits mean they already contribute virtually nothing to their cost of proivison) and as the biggest ever giveaway to wealthy people the country has ever seen (slashing the cost of a rail commute for people who for sound economic/life reasons are already at peace with the fact that suffering the cost of a rail commute is worth the massive wages, pension and stock options it brings them).

This ticket makes no sense as a demand multiplier at a time when UK bus provision is already slashed to the bone because funding it isn't a local or national priority, and UK rail is already at capacity on the most in demand routes, and lacks the resources to significantly increase services on those where growth is feasible.

It only makes sense in the UK, if it comes with wholesale rationalisation of both buses and trains, and you roll back several decades of devolution and localism to persuade people that bargaining with the treasury for your due share of the magic money tree, is how to fund a public utility which is, at its core (bus provision) an exceedingly local issue.

It is a recipe for epic and entirely pointless party political fights that will make bus franchising and TfL funding look like sane, sensible, everyday business of governance. Not a good look at a time when the climate emergency and cost of living crises calls for swift and cross party solutions.

It is a bonkers policy. Electoral suicide.

Right up Labour's street!

 

[yorksrob]

Never.

It would take a newspaper editor five seconds to think of a way to cast such a scheme as the most communist anti-car green-lobby whackadoodle policy this country has ever seen.

Even worse, in the absence of any transformational modal shifting policies beyond the already much maligned HS2, Powerhouse Rail and Fifteen Minute Neighbourhoods, it's pretty easy to cast such a scheme as both the biggest welfare giveaway ever seen (subsidising public transport for those whose lives on perma-benefits and credits mean they already contribute virtually nothing to their cost of proivison) and as the biggest ever giveaway to wealthy people the country has ever seen (slashing the cost of a rail commute for people who for sound economic/life reasons are already at peace with the fact that suffering the cost of a rail commute is worth the massive wages, pension and stock options it brings them).

This ticket makes no sense as a demand multiplier at a time when UK bus provision is already slashed to the bone because funding it isn't a local or national priority, and UK rail is already at capacity on the most in demand routes, and lacks the resources to significantly increase services on those where growth is feasible.

It only makes sense in the UK, if it comes with wholesale rationalisation of both buses and trains, and you roll back several decades of devolution and localism to persuade people that bargaining with the treasury for your due share of the magic money tree, is how to fund a public utility which is, at its core (bus provision) an exceedingly local issue.

It is a recipe for epic and entirely pointless party political fights that will make bus franchising and TfL financial stable look like sane, sensible, everyday business of governance. Not a good look at a time when the climate emergency and cost of living crises calls for swift and cross party solutions.

It is a bonkers policy. Electoral suicide.

Right up Labour's street!

And yet it doesn't appear to be "electoral suicide" in Germany. Could it be that our political parties should have prioritised transport more than they have.

Basically, the the policy is sound, but would be problematic here because various Governments have turned our public transport system into a basket case.

As for "electoral suicide", the Tory party have already written the book on that. Time is ticking ........

And who reads newspapers these days anyway !

 

[Fleetmaster]

As for "electoral suicide", the Tory party have already written the book on that. Time is ticking ........

And who reads newspapers these days anyway !

Things that have been said and proven to be untrue in several recent elections.

With policies like this, Sunak vs. Starmer becomes a fight that is both eminently winnable on simple ideology, and because it helps persuade undecideds that voting for reasons other than the differences between Sunak and Starmer wouldn't exactly be logical. And Corbyn was a timely reminder that for those not voting out of logic, headlines decrying your opponent as a communist and eco-warrior can be extreme effective.

 

[duesselmartin]

I've probably missed out on this, but will this be available for foreign tourists?

It should be. The app gave me PayPal and Credit/ Debit Card as an option of payment.
You just have to see if the DeutschlandTicket app accepts a UK address.

 

[yorksrob]

Things that have been said and proven to be untrue in several recent elections.

With policies like this, Sunak vs. Starmer becomes a fight that is both eminently winnable on simple ideology, and because it helps persuade undecideds that voting for reasons other than the differences between Sunak and Starmer wouldn't exactly be logical. And Corbyn was a timely reminder that for those not voting out of logic, headlines decrying your opponent as a communist and eco-warrior can be extreme effective.

Every survey taken shows that the majority of the travelling public view train travel as poor value for money. A genuinely good offer on train fares would prove as popular here as it has done abroad. It's just unfortunate that our out of touch Establishment are obsessed with regurgitating the same stale ideas on railway funding that have been festering since before Beeching.

The Truss fiasco was electoral suicide, as they will find out in due course.

 

[Fleetmaster]

Every survey taken shows that the majority of the travelling public view train travel as poor value for money. A genuinely good offer on train fares would prove as popular here as it has done abroad. It's just unfortunate that our out of touch Establishment are obsessed with regurgitating the same stale ideas on railway funding that have been festering since before Beeching.

The Truss fiasco was electoral suicide, as they will find out in due course.

This hopelessly optimistic view flies in the face of the rather obvious fact that Starmer will be facing off against a Tory government which has reacted to Covid latterly and passenger dissatisfaction before that, with policies like allowing bus franchising and effectively taking back control over the whole railway.

What's looking more stale then, going into the next election? Labour going full throttle back to full public ownership and effectively full public subsidy with a £49 transport subscription, or the Tories going hard on system level franchising as a way to combine private management with public subsidy? Which looks more European as a management model, to a Brit not remotely used to continental pricing?

Truss will be irrelevant. Starmer banging on about Johnson (hugely popular precisely for his ability to be a pragmatist and a disruptor) would be hilariously counter-productive, exposing as it would his own weaknesses, in policy and personality, as a standalone leader and In contrast to Sunak.

 

[Watershed]

and 50% of their take home

Many of the kind of people you describe will be paying marginal rates of tax of 42%, if not 47%. Add on student loans, pensions, child tax credit clawback and you would struggle to even take 30% of their take home - as it simply can't be taxed any further.

That said, even though they likely pay amongst the highest marginal tax rates in the developed world, I suspect that public sympathy with such individuals is rather limited.

 

[J-2739]

It should be. The app gave me PayPal and Credit/ Debit Card as an option of payment.
You just have to see if the DeutschlandTicket app accepts a UK address.

That's good. Downloaded the app, so fingers crossed. €49 is a big bargain to get round Germany for a month.

My town does end in "ton" but it's not islington.

A lot of ordinary people have mortgages and a lot of ordinary working people aspire to a home. Those are the sorts of people the Tories need. It's not the home counties they need to worry about.

Darton!

 

[yorksrob]

That's good. Downloaded the app, so fingers crossed. €49 is a big bargain to get round Germany for a month.

Darton!

Not far off as it happens !

 

[Snow1964]

I've probably missed out on this, but will this be available for foreign tourists?

Yes
Should be available at Bahn.com or DB Navigator app
Appears it is subscription basis, so would need to cancel when don't want it to renew.

Tickets likely to go on sale around 3rd April for May passes. They are calendar months, so if your trip straddled May and June, would need 2 monthly passes.

 

[Seehof]

I got an e mail from DB today saying I can now order the Deutschlandticket. I am a bit concerned about the subscription element of it as I only want it for a short holiday in Germany in May.
I appreciate nobody has had any experience of it yet, but I presume (hope!) it will be easy to cancel.
I also hope I can get a paper copy of what will go on my phone. My phone once decided to go blank on me (not battery issue) at Leeds airport and I never want that experience again!
I am sure there will be a lot of people who want just one for a short period. Thanks.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The FAQ section on the DB site has some more detail:

The Deutschland-Ticket is here: for just 49 euros per month.

Travel conveniently throughout Germany with just one ticket. With the Deutschland-Ticket– D-Ticket for short – you can travel easily by all means of local public transport from for just 49 euros per month.

www.bahn.com

The Deutschland-Ticket can be used throughout Germany in all regional and local trains. It is also valid for any number of journeys in all means of public transport of the participating regional ticketing systems, transport associations and transport companies according to their area of validity and conditions. This is true regardless of which transport company, association or regional ticketing system is indicated on the ticket. A Deutschland-Ticket purchased in Munich, for example, can therefore also be used for journeys in Frankfurt and the surrounding area.
Please note, however, that the Deutschland-Ticket is not valid on trains operated by DB Fernverkehr AG or other long-distance providers such as FlixTrain (e.g. IC, EC, ICE, as well as RE operated by DB Fernverkehr AG). DB Fernverkehr is currently in talks with the German state governments and authorities about exceptions on certain sections of line.
Furthermore, the Deutschland-Ticket is not valid on means of transport that are operated predominantly for tourist or historical purposes.

Life is more complicated for dogs and bikes (depends on local regulations).
There's also this on using long-distance services:

No, it is not possible to upgrade from local to long-distance trains. A separate ticket is required for long-distance transport. Customers who already pay a surcharge for long-distance transport as part of their regular subscription or annual ticket in their transport association/regional ticket system can of course continue to use it on the route for which the ticket is valid.
DB Fernverkehr and the relevant associations are currently in discussion regarding the possibility of combining a Deutschland-Ticket with a supplementary ticket for long-distance trains.

 

[duesselmartin]

I got an e mail from DB today saying I can now order the Deutschlandticket. I am a bit concerned about the subscription element of it as I only want it for a short holiday in Germany in May.
I appreciate nobody has had any experience of it yet, but I presume (hope!) it will be easy to cancel.
I also hope I can get a paper copy of what will go on my phone. My phone once decided to go blank on me (not battery issue) at Leeds airport and I never want that experience again!
I am sure there will be a lot of people who want just one for a short period. Thanks.

On the DeutschlandTicket App its only a click to cancel the subscription. Not tried the DB Navigator as I will buy it via my local operator.

 

[Seehof]

Thank you.
I am sure to cancel it will be easy.
Is the DeutschlandTicketApp a separate app to DB for this ticket?

 

[Golghar]

This video contains some clarifications: