Avanti West Coast Cancellations

[Snow1964]

Are we expecting an announcement before the markets open at 08:00?

No, only First Group announcement is it gaining London cable car contract.

Just because Northern leaders want Avanti contract cancelled, doesn't mean DfT will actually do anything

 

[dk1]

No, only First Group announcement is it gaining London cable car contract.

Hence the modest share price growth in the last few days.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Likewise with LNER. They don't need to reinvent the wheel, just put a sticker that says 'InterCity West Coast' or something on the trains.

The external branding is already Avanti West Coast (Avanti being a surprisingly common brand outside the rail industry - my LPG gas supplier for instance).

 

[danbarjon]

The BBC have a DfT spokespersons statement.

BBC News Article Link

Stripping Avanti's contract would just cause more upheaval for passengers rather than solving the challenges the operator is facing.

These include restrictive working practices that can't be reformed without Aslef's agreement.

However, improvements still need to be made, which is why it's important the operator continues to address the underlying challenges it faces and the government continues to hold it to account, if it doesn't.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I've noticed some good prices recently including some Avanti First Class GLC to WBQ for £46! Not too bad if you ask me.

I've just had a random look at fares for travel next Thursday.

Avanti "logic":

06:17/07:45 Warrington to Glasgow- both £70.50 Advance First singles.
From Preston to Glasgow on the same trains it's £91.50.

 

[Bletchleyite]

06:17/07:45 Warrington to Glasgow- both £70.50 Advance First singles.
From Preston to Glasgow on the same trains it's £91.50.

That may actually be logical - more demand from Preston.

 

[voyagerdude220]

That may actually be logical - more demand from Preston.

You're probably right, I'd guess that more pax would board at Preston than Warrington, but I feel it's unfair on those making the shorter journey from Preston being charged considerably more than those boarding at Warrington.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're probably right, I'd guess that more pax would board at Preston than Warrington, but I feel it's unfair on those making the shorter journey from Preston being charged considerably more than those boarding at Warrington.

It's unfair and creates a need for break of journey restrictions, but in the purest "pricing pairs of stations based on what you can get" there is sense in it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That may actually be logical - more demand from Preston.

There's also direct competition (from TPE) at Preston, but not at Warrington, unless you consider the routeing via York (which does impact on fares policy).
Warrington has a wider range of fares than you would expect, because of its history of being served by both LNWR and CLC routes.

 

[Toby268]

I have said the last few weeks since this rumour started that there was going to be a lot of disappointed people today. We have heard several times now Avanti are going to lose the contract and here we are again. This was another rumour started off the back of a regular management meeting that’s happening today. And surprise surprise Avanti are here to stay.

 

[Howardh]

You're probably right, I'd guess that more pax would board at Preston than Warrington, but I feel it's unfair on those making the shorter journey from Preston being charged considerably more than those boarding at Warrington.

Well that's a heads-up for me when going south, check the fares from Wigan, Preston, Warrington, Manchester as well as Bolton to see which is the cheapest!

Suspect the cheapest advances will be from Picc but worth a try. But to travel from further for less seems a bit bizarre.

 

[danbarjon]

I have said the last few weeks since this rumour started that there was going to be a lot of disappointed people today. We have heard several times now Avanti are going to lose the contract and here we are again. This was another rumour started off the back of a regular management meeting that’s happening today.

I will be surprised if we hear that today they are being stripped of the contract as DfT said yesterday it would only make more problems.

 

[Hazlehead]

https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1770752412879290779?t=A1XhRXPZrQz1PNu92tq27A&s=19

 

[danbarjon]

https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1770752412879290779?t=A1XhRXPZrQz1PNu92tq27A&s=19

I thought it was wishful thinking...

 

[Krokodil]

I will be surprised if we hear that today they are being stripped of the contract as DfT said yesterday it would only make more problems.

They've learned from their post-election panic re:TPE then.

 

[LMonty]

I have said the last few weeks since this rumour started that there was going to be a lot of disappointed people today. We have heard several times now Avanti are going to lose the contract and here we are again. This was another rumour started off the back of a regular management meeting that’s happening today. And surprise surprise Avanti are here to stay

I have said the last few weeks since this rumour started that there was going to be a lot of disappointed people today. We have heard several times now Avanti are going to lose the contract and here we are again. This was another rumour started off the back of a regular management meeting that’s happening today. And surprise surprise Avanti are here to stay.

It’s not just been back office natter, there has been an incredible amount of movement within the company so of course it’s gonna start speculation. I wouldn’t rule out anything given what has happened internally

 

[bengley]

I don't think there was any suggestion the government were going to strip them of the franchise anyway. It was rumoured they were going to hand the keys back

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I don't think there was any suggestion the government were going to strip them of the franchise anyway. It was rumoured they were going to hand the keys back

This has all just been rumours and people adding 2 + 2 and getting 20.

FG’s announcement today was about the Cable Car. Someone had decided to take it on amongst themselves that as FG was making an announcement it must be them handing the keys back on Avanti. There was absolutely no substance behind this.

 

[Efini92]

That may actually be logical - more demand from Preston.

There was a case some years ago where virgin took a passenger to court for having a Lancaster-Euston season ticket but was boarding and alighting at Preston. For that very reason, it was cheaper from Lancaster than Preston.

 

[Howardh]

There was a case some years ago where virgin took a passenger to court for having a Lancaster-Euston season ticket but was boarding and alighting at Preston. For that very reason, it was cheaper from Lancaster than Preston.

Did the passenger win?

 

[Efini92]

Did the passenger win?

I’m not sure what the outcome was, just remember reading it in one of the Lancashire papers.
I’ll see if I can find the article and post on here.

I will be surprised if we hear that today they are being stripped of the contract as DfT said yesterday it would only make more problems.

Huw meriman has just said they won’t be stripping Avanti. According to him, the problems with Avanti date back to 1997 then tried to pass the blame off to labour….

Did the passenger win?

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2017-02-03/virgin-trains-apologises-for-acting-like-the-gestapo

Here’s the link, I stand corrected. He wasn’t taken to court.

 

[Krokodil]

So First Group will continue getting "free money" (their words).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was a case some years ago where virgin took a passenger to court for having a Lancaster-Euston season ticket but was boarding and alighting at Preston. For that very reason, it was cheaper from Lancaster than Preston.

It won't have been a season ticket, it will have been an Off Peak Return which has a break of journey restriction. It's like this because of the relative lack of evening service north of Preston - tickets to Preston south have evening restrictions, tickets to Lancaster north don't.

It's one of the few break of journey restrictions Avanti actually enforce.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I’m not sure what the outcome was, just remember reading it in one of the Lancashire papers.
I’ll see if I can find the article and post on here.


Huw meriman has just said they won’t be stripping Avanti. According to him, the problems with Avanti date back to 1997 then tried to pass the blame off to labour….

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2017-02-03/virgin-trains-apologises-for-acting-like-the-gestapo

Here’s the link, I stand corrected. He wasn’t taken to court.

So he's pinpointing when Virgin took on the West Coast, yet even despite the involvement of Stagecoach in Virgin Trains for 22 years they didn't have the poisonous industrial relations that Avanti now do and will always have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So he's pinpointing when Virgin took on the West Coast, yet even despite the involvement of Stagecoach in Virgin Trains for 22 years they didn't have the poisonous industrial relations that Avanti now do and will always have.

There was always a "cachet" of working for Virgin, so people I think tolerated things being not quite as generous as they might have needed to be at other TOCs.

FirstGroup, by contrast, carries no cachet at all. Trenitalia could have done, but the whole thing is a huge failure of marketing so doesn't.

 

[Efini92]

So he's pinpointing when Virgin took on the West Coast, yet even despite the involvement of Stagecoach in Virgin Trains for 22 years they didn't have the poisonous industrial relations that Avanti now do and will always have.

It’s a cheap dig, that’s all he seems to be capable of. He’s hellbent on getting t&c’s changed. But instead of allowing it to be done in the proper manner, he’s trash talking whenever he gets an opportunity to justify the mess he’s making.

There was always a "cachet" of working for Virgin, so people I think tolerated things being not quite as generous as they might have needed to be at other TOCs.

FirstGroup, by contrast, carries no cachet at all. Trenitalia could have done, but the whole thing is a huge failure of marketing so doesn't.

In fairness to Branson, he looked after his staff, which in turn meant that his customers were looked after. The brand meant everything to him.First group are only interested in money and they’ll do the bare minimum to make maximum profits.
Has any TOC that’s been under FirstGroup control not been in dispute with them?

 

[Krokodil]

There was always a "cachet" of working for Virgin, so people I think tolerated things being not quite as generous as they might have needed to be at other TOCs.

Pre-2012 Virgin Trains was a great employer to work for, with some pretty enviable perks across the wider group. It started to go downhill after the refranchising debacle.

 

[Toby268]

This has all just been rumours and people adding 2 + 2 and getting 20.

FG’s announcement today was about the Cable Car. Someone had decided to take it on amongst themselves that as FG was making an announcement it must be them handing the keys back on Avanti. There was absolutely no substance behind this.

Spot on.

 

[The Chimaera]

It’s a cheap dig, that’s all he seems to be capable of. He’s hellbent on getting t&c’s changed. But instead of allowing it to be done in the proper manner, he’s trash talking whenever he gets an opportunity to justify the mess he’s making.


In fairness to Branson, he looked after his staff, which in turn meant that his customers were looked after. The brand meant everything to him.First group are only interested in money and they’ll do the bare minimum to make maximum profits.
Has any TOC that’s been under FirstGroup control not been in dispute with them?

The irony is Avanti , courtesy of the restructuring done over the years by Virgin, already have one of worst set of conditions of any (former) TOC, hence the higher rate of pay. The new, seemingly national set of conditions that this government favour appear to have been largely based on what Avanti already have.
The reference to ‘historic Annual Leave conditions’ always make me laugh as those weeks are rostered by agreement up to 12 months in advance so shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. The number of drivers off AL at the same time is strictly regulated by management quotas. So what do they want? The ability to cancel AL at the last moment to suit the company? Not good if you’ve booked a holiday that..

 

[LMonty]

This has all just been rumours and people adding 2 + 2 and getting 20.

FG’s announcement today was about the Cable Car. Someone had decided to take it on amongst themselves that as FG was making an announcement it must be them handing the keys back on Avanti. There was absolutely no substance behind this.

Plenty of substance behind this when you look at the changes that have happened internally with FG directors leaving the business along with other senior FG staff