Brexit matters

[ainsworth74]

I am not sure Farage expected, or even wanted, to win the referendum. His grift relied on continuing to campaign for Brexit, not for it to actually happen.

Oh absolutely! It's been disastrous for Farage! A close loss would have been perfect. He can keep pulling down his MEP wage, have another run at becoming an MP, continue appearing on the media as well other speaking engagements and just general stay in the public eye.

Winning has taken basically all of that away from him. He's been reduced to making social media "Happy Birthday [NAME] from Nigel!" and setting up a dodgy newsletter. It's one of the true Brexit positives that Farage has so thoroughly ruined his career

 

[317 forever]

It's not at all fair or reasonable to claim that all 48% of those who voted Remain supported Freedom of movement. I've already pointed out that I myself am a direct counter-example to that kind of claim - I voted Remain despite being on balance opposed to freedom of movement in its current form. People would have had all sorts of reasons for voting Remain - and it's very notable that the Remain campaign at the time scarcely mentioned Freedom of Movement, instead focusing almost entirely on the (alleged) economic benefits of staying in the EU.

Indeed, I voted Remain for reasons including trade such as food imports, and for the open border to suit Irish communities. I already disagreed with the freedom of movement to/from eastern Europe but recognised that it was an inevitable part of membership.

 

[DerekC]

Because Brexit transition rules (effectively no change from when we were in UK) have expired.

Now each passport has to be scanned, checked it matches the holder, and a French entry stamp added.

It is another disadvantage of Brexit. But Brexiteers think slow extra administration like this is a good idea which is presumably why they voted for it.

Not at all - the Leave campaign told everyone that we could have our cake and eat it - all the benefits of EU membership plus all the "opportunities" of Brexit, but most important, no Freedom of Movement for damn foreigners. Oh, and "sovereignty" so that our government can do exactly what it likes including tearing up all the EU-derived rules covering environment, food standards and everything else on a Ministerial whim without consulting Parliament. What's not to like?!

 

[317 forever]

Given the history of the Irish situation, any sensible Government would not dare meddle with it. Thankfully nothing bad has happened, but the Government was playing with fire by not talking into account NI properly.

It's part of the reason, I am afraid, why I am utterly cynical and distrustful of this Government. And the "we have to respect the referendum" argument, made by many, is not enough. They could have done a soft, customs union Brexit, correctly claim they respected the referendum result, and the whole NI situation would never have arose.

Given that Liz Truss has drafted the legislation to tamper with the NI protocol, this is a significant reason why I'd hate for her to become the next Prime Minister.

 

[alex397]

I am finding it mildly amusing how many people on the few online forums I’m on, and on Facebook groups, are insisting the problems at Dover are all to do with ‘the French’ and nothing to do with Brexit.

It’s really quite simple. As mentioned here, every passport has to be properly checked now because of Brexit, and not because of ‘the French punishing us because they have never liked us’. I don’t know why that’s so difficult to understand.

 

[Cloud Strife]

It’s really quite simple. As mentioned here, every passport has to be properly checked now because of Brexit, and not because of ‘the French punishing us because they have never liked us’. I don’t know why that’s so difficult to understand.

It's worth noting that this isn't actually a consequence of Brexit, but Schengen rules. According to the updated Schengen Borders Code, each document must be scanned as opposed to being merely visually checked. We've seen changes elsewhere as a result of this, such as in Ceuta where new booths were built for passengers to accommodate these scans, or in La Linea.

Something on the BBC worth noting today:

A French MP has claimed the British government rejected a proposal to double the number of passport booths given to the French Police in Dover a few months ago.
Pierre-Henri Dumont, Republican MP for Calais, also said the traffic jams at the port were because of Brexit.
He tweeted: "No need to blame French authorities for the traffic jams in Dover that’s an aftermath of Brexit. We have to run more and longer checks."
Dumont also said yesterday the Port of Dover was “too small” and there were too few kiosks due to lack of space.
The chief executive of the Port of Dover, Doug Bannister, has said that in a post-Brexit environment "there will be increased transaction times at the border" but also said the port had created more capacity.

I highlighted this yesterday...

 

[Lost property]

Coming soon...the staycation every Leaver dreams of....two weeks sat in queue overlooking Dover !

From the BBC

" Holidaymakers have been facing long delays again today - but some predict they could become a regular feature for those heading for a European getaway.

From September, the EU will be introducing even more checks - with biometric testing at the border for non-EU nationals.

So, now we're not in the EU anymore, we'll see facial recognition and fingerprinting becoming the norm.

It's already prompting warnings of more delays.

 

[alex397]

From September, the EU will be introducing even more checks - with biometric testing at the border for non-EU nationals.

So, now we're not in the EU anymore, we'll see facial recognition and fingerprinting becoming the norm.

It's already prompting warnings of more delays.

Ah but that’s just “Project Fear scaremongering”

 

[Cloud Strife]

From September, the EU will be introducing even more checks - with biometric testing at the border for non-EU nationals.

So, now we're not in the EU anymore, we'll see facial recognition and fingerprinting becoming the norm.

Nope, not true. The land/sea border won't be subject to biometric checks, only the air borders. The EU experimented with biometric checks at the land borders for people in cars, and the results were....let's say rather negative due to the huge amount of time needed to do them.

 

[alex397]

Nope, not true. The land/sea border won't be subject to biometric checks, only the air borders. The EU experimented with biometric checks at the land borders for people in cars, and the results were....let's say rather negative due to the huge amount of time needed to do them.

Good to know. But this will presumably still have a negative impact on air travel and Eurostar. It doesn’t seem St Pancras can cope very well with the increased checks.

 

[jon0844]

British people love to queue, so surely long queues are a Brexit benefit and JRM should add it to his list.

 

[TwoYellas]

British people love to queue, so surely long queues are a Brexit benefit and JRM should add it to his list.

It was obviously a masterstroke from the gallant Brexiteers. It's all becoming clear to us mere mortals now. In their steadfast and prescient wisdom they told us before the referendum only the benefits we needed to know at the time. Knowing that slowly we would become aware of the several other advantages of leaving the EU. All of course, in the build up to becoming the no 1 country in the whole wide world.

 

[duncanp]

Coming soon...the staycation every Leaver dreams of....two weeks sat in queue overlooking Dover !

From the BBC

" Holidaymakers have been facing long delays again today - but some predict they could become a regular feature for those heading for a European getaway.

From September, the EU will be introducing even more checks - with biometric testing at the border for non-EU nationals.

So, now we're not in the EU anymore, we'll see facial recognition and fingerprinting becoming the norm.

It's already prompting warnings of more delays.

Imagine that, the BBC not giving the full facts in order to make things seem worse than they actually are.

Who would have thought them capable of twisting the facts to suit their own narrative.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Imagine that, the BBC not giving the full facts in order to make things seem worse than they actually are.

Who would have thought them capable of twisting the facts to suit their own narrative.

Well said !

 

[duncanp]

Well said !

Although there may be extra checks required at the border, this need not be a problem if there are sufficient staff to carry them out in a timely manner.

There is the suspicion, with France in particular, that they are deliberately making things slower than they need be in order to "punish" the UK for Brexit. (eg. not all passport booths at Dover in operation)

 

[alex397]

Imagine that, the BBC not giving the full facts in order to make things seem worse than they actually are.

Who would have thought them capable of twisting the facts to suit their own narrative.

And what is their own narrative?

Pretty sure articles in the past warning of border delays were brushed off as “Project Fear” and “scaremongering”, and yet here we are…

Although there may be extra checks required at the border, this need not be a problem if there are sufficient staff to carry them out in a timely manner.

Reportedly, the French border posts were fully staffed today, and yet we still had severe delays. How do you explain that?

There is the suspicion, with France in particular, that they are deliberately making things slower than they need be in order to "punish" the UK for Brexit. (eg. not all passport booths at Dover in operation)

Do you have any evidence that the whole nation of France wants to “punish” us for leaving the EU? It seems lazy to just blame the French.

 

[najaB]

There is the suspicion, with France in particular, that they are deliberately making things slower than they need be in order to "punish" the UK for Brexit. (eg. not all passport booths at Dover in operation)

There's also a suspicion that Big Foot exists and that Lord Lucan is living in Australia.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Although there may be extra checks required at the border, this need not be a problem if there are sufficient staff to carry them out in a timely manner.

There is the suspicion, with France in particular, that they are deliberately making things slower than they need be in order to "punish" the UK for Brexit. (eg. not all passport booths at Dover in operation)

This whole subject can be very emotive, so I will stick to my observations (on TV) of the BBC's reporting: yesterday morning (Fri 22nd) I watched a TV report showing long lines of cars waiting to be processed at Dover. By this morning, (Sat 23rd) the report from Dover showed that things had visibly improved, with some delays, but vehicles were seen (behind the reporter) to be moving and the situation was obviously far better than yesterday morning. Now, come to this evenings early evening report, and again, long lines of cars at a standstill etc., until I twigged what I was seeing was actually yesterday mornings report being re-aired this evening, so to anyone looking in, the impression being given was that the horrendous delays were still ongoing!
Whether this was a case of no other (new) news to report this evening, or a case that their expensive reporters don't work at weekends, who can say, but to re-air a piece that is likely to have been out of date, and in the process of doing so, implying that transport problems are worse than they are in reality, is at best, dis-ingenuous, but it certainly in my mind, and I'm sure others likewise, will question the motives of some of the media's reporting decisions.

I could expand on the impartiality (or more to the point, not) of some of the BBC's reporting, but that's not for here!

 

[Cloud Strife]

Good to know. But this will presumably still have a negative impact on air travel and Eurostar. It doesn’t seem St Pancras can cope very well with the increased checks.

The rail border is counted as the land border, so they won't be implemented there. Most rail connections across the EU land border have onboard controls, and it's just not feasible to carry out biometric controls in that way.

There is the suspicion, with France in particular, that they are deliberately making things slower than they need be in order to "punish" the UK for Brexit. (eg. not all passport booths at Dover in operation)

Dover's infrastructure is woefully inadequate, and even with every lane open, there's just not enough capacity to handle the requirements of so many non-EU citizens crossing the EU border. Dover was built and designed for controls as they were in 2003, when France often didn't even control every vehicle. It was nothing extraordinary after the implementation of the Treaty of Le Touquet to see the PAF booths empty, or for them to simply wave people through.

What needs to be done now is to rebuild the frontier control area so that it has a more modern design along with considerably more booths.

 

[Snow1964]

Dover's infrastructure is woefully inadequate, and even with every lane open, there's just not enough capacity to handle the requirements of so many non-EU citizens crossing the EU border. Dover was built and designed for controls as they were in 2003, when France often didn't even control every vehicle. It was nothing extraordinary after the implementation of the Treaty of Le Touquet to see the PAF booths empty, or for them to simply wave people through.

What needs to be done now is to rebuild the frontier control area so that it has a more modern design along with considerably more booths.

Even if most people hadn’t heard of the changes to passport checking, the Port of Dover would have, and they haven’t bothered to increase the number of booths, and it isn’t even a case of extra ones aren’t yet ready. They just don’t like spending money, and those queuing are treated like it is not their problem

 

[gysev]

There is the suspicion, with France in particular, that they are deliberately making things slower than they need be in order to "punish" the UK for Brexit. (eg. not all passport booths at Dover in operation)

The same problem exists at Brussels. British immigration causes long queues of people, sometimes stretching half way through the station. Eurostars leave with delays up to 30' because of this. Oddly enough, there is not one single French official in sight

 

[The Ham]

I am finding it mildly amusing how many people on the few online forums I’m on, and on Facebook groups, are insisting the problems at Dover are all to do with ‘the French’ and nothing to do with Brexit.

It’s really quite simple. As mentioned here, every passport has to be properly checked now because of Brexit, and not because of ‘the French punishing us because they have never liked us’. I don’t know why that’s so difficult to understand.

It's worth noting that this isn't actually a consequence of Brexit, but Schengen rules. According to the updated Schengen Borders Code, each document must be scanned as opposed to being merely visually checked. We've seen changes elsewhere as a result of this, such as in Ceuta where new booths were built for passengers to accommodate these scans, or in La Linea.

Something on the BBC worth noting today:



I highlighted this yesterday...

Although there may be extra checks required at the border, this need not be a problem if there are sufficient staff to carry them out in a timely manner.

There is the suspicion, with France in particular, that they are deliberately making things slower than they need be in order to "punish" the UK for Brexit. (eg. not all passport booths at Dover in operation)

As with all things is never straight forwards, at there's many factors which come into play.

With the historic method glance at passport and wave through (say 30 second per passport) processing 1,200 would require 10 man hours of time.

Now assuming that Brixit was based on older rules of glance at and stamp passport (say 60 second per passport) then there's then a need for double the staffing levels (20 man hours of time).

Then comes along Covid causing issues with building things and at the same time new rules come into play saying that it's for to be look at, check and stamp passport (say 90 seconds per passport, and that time had been reported as the likely timeframe recently) and you now need 50% more staff than you did on the level assumed at Brexit (30 man hours).

Covid had made it hard to build the infrastructure, likewise there would have been reports from the assumed at Brexit level saying that the system has sufficient capacity so governments (both the British and French) would have been less willing to do anything to fix a problem that their reports had said wouldn't be an issue.

Another factor is that given the levels of issues with flying reported at Easter and ongoing; I wouldn't be surprised if the Port of Dover was saying more use than normal. This making things worse than it otherwise would have been.

As such it's likely that if we hadn't left there would have been issues, however Brexit has likely added to the issues (how much is hard to say) however still being within the EU it may have been that when it became obvious that there were a lack of French Boarder staff that the UK could have offered some of there's too help clear the backlog - an offer, given that it would be EU boarder staff checking EU documents could have been more likely to have been accepted than if such an offer was made post Brixit.

 

[Lost property]

Imagine that, the BBC not giving the full facts in order to make things seem worse than they actually are.

Who would have thought them capable of twisting the facts to suit their own narrative.

Presumably you subscribe to either / both Fox News / GB News then and are a member of the anti-BBC lobby....Nadine will welcome your support if this is the case

However, the incontrovertible fact, is, UK citizens no longer enjoy the privilege of seamless immigration admission to the EU...and this isn't suddenly going be resolved for the benefit of the UK.

 

[REVUpminster]

We are not in the the Schengen area along with Ireland so when did we have seamless entry.

 

[alex397]

We are not in the the Schengen area along with Ireland so when did we have seamless entry.

Seamless as in just waving a passport, if at all. Now every passport has to be properly checked and stamped, as well as other rules to comply with. It seems every person now takes around double the time to process at Dover, which all adds up to significant delays. We are now a third-country and have a hard border, which is exactly what this government wanted but is now trying to blame others for the mess.

 

[Doppelganger]

We are not in the the Schengen area along with Ireland so when did we have seamless entry.

I've travelled in the past from Dover to Ostend and there were zero passport checks, despite leaving an EU country, as the UK was then, and entering the Schengen zone.

Also how many passports are checked when leaving the UK from an airport?

Hardly secure borders when you don't know who is actually leaving.

 

[duncanp]

Presumably you subscribe to either / both Fox News / GB News then and are a member of the anti-BBC lobby....Nadine will welcome your support if this is the case

However, the incontrovertible fact, is, UK citizens no longer enjoy the privilege of seamless immigration admission to the EU...and this isn't suddenly going be resolved for the benefit of the UK.

Actually I don't subscribe to either Fox News or GB News, just so you know the facts.

 

[jon0844]

I've travelled in the past from Dover to Ostend and there were zero passport checks, despite leaving an EU country, as the UK was then, and entering the Schengen zone.

Also how many passports are checked when leaving the UK from an airport?

Hardly secure borders when you don't know who is actually leaving.

You know when you're told to add your passport information when checking in online? That info is, in theory, passed to the Government so they know you are leaving.

I am not sure it always is passed on though.

 

[Mag_seven]

Now every passport has to be properly checked and stamped, as well as other rules to comply with.

But at least its now "blue".

 

[dosxuk]

This whole subject can be very emotive, so I will stick to my observations (on TV) of the BBC's reporting: yesterday morning (Fri 22nd) I watched a TV report showing long lines of cars waiting to be processed at Dover. By this morning, (Sat 23rd) the report from Dover showed that things had visibly improved, with some delays, but vehicles were seen (behind the reporter) to be moving and the situation was obviously far better than yesterday morning. Now, come to this evenings early evening report, and again, long lines of cars at a standstill etc., until I twigged what I was seeing was actually yesterday mornings report being re-aired this evening, so to anyone looking in, the impression being given was that the horrendous delays were still ongoing!
Whether this was a case of no other (new) news to report this evening, or a case that their expensive reporters don't work at weekends, who can say, but to re-air a piece that is likely to have been out of date, and in the process of doing so, implying that transport problems are worse than they are in reality, is at best, dis-ingenuous, but it certainly in my mind, and I'm sure others likewise, will question the motives of some of the media's reporting decisions.

I could expand on the impartiality (or more to the point, not) of some of the BBC's reporting, but that's not for here!

The BBC (and other broadcasters) have had reporters at Dover doing live reports into their various news outlets all weekend. I think the chances of them intentionally reusing a complete report that is over 24 hours old in those circumstances is pretty much zero. Sure, parts of a report may be reused (there's often follow up to previous vox-pop contributions), which may give a casual viewer/listener the impression the whole thing is the same, but those claims generally don't stand up to scrutiny.