CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[317 forever]

There were 3 more 197s than usual on Liverpool services yesterday for eurovision, so that's why there was probably a substitution.

Ok thanks for explaining it. Admittedly I saw a 197 just outside Chester with Crewe on it. I would have thought the Crewe service more suitable to retain a 175 for now.

I was heading to Liverpool indirectly due to Eurovision but travelled via Shotton and Upton as it was cheaper and more assuring than a direct train from Piccadilly. Judging by how many people on the platform at Piccadilly who did not join our train, I probably chose a more comfortable option.

I started my bus trip at Upton rather than Liverpool as a result.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sadly my train from East Didsbury to Shotton yesterday was not a 197 but still a 175. I did see a 197 pass in the opposite direction just before we reached Chester.

I suppose at least this way you’ve had a last ride on the legacy class of the route. From this time next week no 175s are booked to run to East Didsbury or on Chester/North Wales-Manchester services at all.

 

[Philip]

I suppose at least this way you’ve had a last ride on the legacy class of the route. From this time next week no 175s are booked to run to East Didsbury or on Chester/North Wales-Manchester services at all.

Maybe not booked, but I'd say it's very likely they'll still appear on the route sporadically, quite possibly right up to withdrawal from all other routes as they're still booked to run to Chester for maintenance and I think Manchester-Llandudno is a useful 'road-test' diagram after maintenance, as Chester depot is in the middle of the route.

 

[317 forever]

I suppose at least this way you’ve had a last ride on the legacy class of the route. From this time next week no 175s are booked to run to East Didsbury or on Chester/North Wales-Manchester services at all.

Actually yes I am inclined to agree. I had been on a refurb 175 on my way home from London having done CrossRail last August. The 175 kinda washed over me at the time.

Also, I can repeat that routing next time I go to Merseyside and potentially do my first 197 and 230 together.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Maybe not booked, but I'd say it's very likely they'll still appear on the route sporadically, quite possibly right up to withdrawal from all other routes as they're still booked to run to Chester for maintenance and I think Manchester-Llandudno is a useful 'road-test' diagram after maintenance, as Chester depot is in the middle of the route.

The point still stands that they’ll be a rarity. They are today, in fact.

 

[childwallblues]

Maybe not booked, but I'd say it's very likely they'll still appear on the route sporadically, quite possibly right up to withdrawal from all other routes as they're still booked to run to Chester for maintenance and I think Manchester-Llandudno is a useful 'road-test' diagram after maintenance, as Chester depot is in the middle of the route.

Maintenance trips were normally Chester to Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[Philip]

Maintenance trips were normally Chester to Liverpool Lime Street.

They don't go to Liverpool for maintenance, I meant that recently they have sometimes worked Manchester-Llandudno diagrams after going back into service following a spell of maintenance at Chester depot.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just passed a 197 at Dallam (Warrington), on a 5Zxx service from Crewe.
Didn't get the number.

 

[sd0733]

Just passed a 197 at Dallam (Warrington), on a 5Zxx service from Crewe.
Didn't get the number.

197020 and 042 on proving runs to be signed off for full use on Crewe-Manchester via Stockport, Styal and Warrington running over the next couple of days.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

197020 and 042 on proving runs to be signed off for full use on Crewe-Manchester via Stockport, Styal and Warrington running over the next couple of days.

Thanks for the info and plans - looks promising.
I counted 5x175s in the sidings/depot at Chester, and about the same number of 197s (at least one of which was a 3-car).

 

[Wrexham12]

When are we realistically going to see more 197’s introduced?

 

[sd0733]

When are we realistically going to see more 197’s introduced?

Not really a question anyone can answer at the moment. Until whatever holding up unit acceptance is resolved then no more can be introduced

 

[CaergwrleKen]

The Chester Crewe shuttle is down for 197 from today however there will be issues with traincrew as lots from Crewe and Shrewsbury still haven’t trained on them

 

[childwallblues]

197012 is on CTR-LIV this morning. Is this new in service as I have not seen this one before.

 

[Jamesrob637]

197012 is on CTR-LIV this morning. Is this new in service as I have not seen this one before.

No my mate caught it from Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Lime Street yesterday.

 

[craigybagel]

The Chester Crewe shuttle is down for 197 from today however there will be issues with traincrew as lots from Crewe and Shrewsbury still haven’t trained on them

Guards should be fine as nearly all guards in the North sign them, just a few trips worked by Cardiff that might need covering. Shrewsbury drivers don't currently have any work on the shuttle on weekdays, so it's just a few trips with Crewe drivers that are being covered by Chester as required.

 

[berneyarms]

197012 is on CTR-LIV this morning. Is this new in service as I have not seen this one before.

It has been in service since early February, so no, it's not new.

The list of new units in 2023 is maintained here:

New Units in Service in 2023

All help appreciated in keeping this thread updated. Have got it on a few forums so that as many eyes as possible can help with it. Updates in bold. Entering service in 2023 have been..... UNIT ORDER..... 196001 WM: 10/01/23: 2J32 17:26 BHM-SHR. 196004 WM: 23/02/23: 2J02 05:56 BHM-SHR. 196005...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bob Price]

197049 was dragged to Crewe L&NWR site today from Donnington by 70014.

 

[glenbogle]

Have been reading this thread, the 197’s have been cleared to Aberystwyth, what about Pwllheli ?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Have been reading this thread, the 197’s have been cleared to Aberystwyth, what about Pwllheli ?

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure they have done an overnight run or two up to Pwllheli.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure they have done an overnight run or two up to Pwllheli.

I preface this by saying this is all things I have heard at the depot. They have done some overnight gauging runs to Pwllheli but there are some problems that need to be solved before they're cleared for running on the route. Llanbedr and Tygwyn need some station alterations as when stopped at the platform the drivers white light for the crossings is not visible. I also hear that as these units are heavier (44.95T per 197 driving car compared to 39T per 158 car) there is issues with the axel weight of them and as a result will not be seen between Mach and Pwllheli untill atleast 2027.

Have been reading this thread, the 197’s have been cleared to Aberystwyth, what about Pwllheli ?

I heard from people involved in the testing of them that there were some issues with the track being so rough (and 197's having smaller airbags on the suspension and smaller wheel diamater) that it broke a few things on them and was incredibly uncomfortable to ride on. There have been large sections of track replaced in the last 12 months so might be largely resolved but there are definitely a few areas that are still a bit rough even on the 158's.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I preface this by saying this is all things I have heard at the depot. They have done some overnight gauging runs to Pwllheli but there are some problems that need to be solved before they're cleared for running on the route. Llanbedr and Tygwyn need some station alterations as when stopped at the platform the drivers white light for the crossings is not visible. I also hear that as these units are heavier (44.95T per 197 driving car compared to 39T per 158 car) there is issues with the axel weight of them and as a result will not be seen between Mach and Pwllheli untill atleast 2027.

I heard from people involved in the testing of them that there were some issues with the track being so rough (and 197's having smaller airbags on the suspension and smaller wheel diamater) that it broke a few things on them and was incredibly uncomfortable to ride on. There have been large sections of track replaced in the last 12 months so might be largely resolved but there are definitely a few areas that are still a bit rough even on the 158's.

2027!?!?! That is a very long wait and a huge setback.... they're going to have to resolve that somehow...

 

[glenbogle]

I preface this by saying this is all things I have heard at the depot. They have done some overnight gauging runs to Pwllheli but there are some problems that need to be solved before they're cleared for running on the route. Llanbedr and Tygwyn need some station alterations as when stopped at the platform the drivers white light for the crossings is not visible. I also hear that as these units are heavier (44.95T per 197 driving car compared to 39T per 158 car) there is issues with the axel weight of them and as a result will not be seen between Mach and Pwllheli untill atleast 2027.

I heard from people involved in the testing of them that there were some issues with the track being so rough (and 197's having smaller airbags on the suspension and smaller wheel diamater) that it broke a few things on them and was incredibly uncomfortable to ride on. There have been large sections of track replaced in the last 12 months so might be largely resolved but there are definitely a few areas that are still a bit rough even on the 158's.

2027, good news for the haters!!
Suspect it’ll be 158’s up and back to Pwllheli with the 197’s working to Aberystwyth and passengers changing at Machynlleth.

 

[Lurcheroo]

2027!?!?! That is a very long wait and a huge setback.... they're going to have to resolve that somehow...

Yep, rather crazy, if its problems with strength of structures then I'm not sure how they'll be able to do it sooner, we've seen how long its taken to get barmouth viaduct restored. Well I'm hearing it will be mid 2025 before we see 197's in service even on the cambrian mainline. I'm not sure exactly what the plan will be when 197's are running on the mainline and 158's on the coastline as they cant work in multiple together they will lose the ability to have direct trains from Pwllheli to Shrewsbury and birmingham. Maybe they will run some services on the mainline as 159's to allow the multipole working, maybe it will always be change at Mach. what I do also hear is that they are looking at running 4 car 158's again on the coastline this summer on select services. At the moment unit availabilty is a problem for doing that, but as more 158 diagrams are taken over by 197's that will free up units and might make it very viable. With the new timetable, provision has also been made for having 2 conductors on services when a spare is available (not just the 4 car services). Having 4 cars and 2 conductors will mean passengers should never get left behind like they do at times in the summer now whilst still being able to collect a significant amount more revenue to make that service provision more viable (and have TFW see reason to keep 4 cars running on the coast.

2027, good news for the haters!!
Suspect it’ll be 158’s up and back to Pwllheli with the 197’s working to Aberystwyth and passengers changing at Machynlleth.

Yes! I'm excited to work the 197's particularly to Birmingham, I'm not so sure about them on the cambrian coastline though. The 158's might be better suited to the work and better for passengers but time will tell, the 197's might muvh nicer.

 

[sd0733]

2027, good news for the haters!!
Suspect it’ll be 158’s up and back to Pwllheli with the 197’s working to Aberystwyth and passengers changing at Machynlleth.

Hadn't heard it being that long before but was always the plan until all the issues are rectified.

 

[Dai Corner]

Hadn't heard it being that long before but was always the plan until all the issues are rectified.

I seem to remember reading that the existing signalling on the Cambrian wasn't compatible with the 197s and would have to be changed, and that the new system would be incompatible with the 158s. Thus the changeover would have to be done in one go. Stand to be corrected though.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I seem to remember reading that the existing signalling on the Cambrian wasn't compatible with the 197s and would have to be changed, and that the new system would be incompatible with the 158s. Thus the changeover would have to be done in one go. Stand to be corrected though.

No I believe the update has been done already. There was a saturday where all time table services ran but as ECS and there was a bus replacment for passenegers as part of the upgrade. I dont think it would be possible to just one day switch from 158's to 197's on the cambrain.

 

[Dai Corner]

No I believe the update has been done already. There was a saturday where all time table services ran but as ECS and there was a bus replacment for passenegers as part of the upgrade. I dont think it would be possible to just one day switch from 158's to 197's on the cambrain.

Right. Thanks. I did think it was, er, ambitious!

 

[Jacob Porrett]

70016 has brought 197108 to Donnington RFT this morning from Crewe Basford Hall SSM.

 

[33017]

I preface this by saying this is all things I have heard at the depot. They have done some overnight gauging runs to Pwllheli but there are some problems that need to be solved before they're cleared for running on the route. Llanbedr and Tygwyn need some station alterations as when stopped at the platform the drivers white light for the crossings is not visible. I also hear that as these units are heavier (44.95T per 197 driving car compared to 39T per 158 car) there is issues with the axel weight of them and as a result will not be seen between Mach and Pwllheli untill atleast 2027.

I heard from people involved in the testing of them that there were some issues with the track being so rough (and 197's having smaller airbags on the suspension and smaller wheel diamater) that it broke a few things on them and was incredibly uncomfortable to ride on. There have been large sections of track replaced in the last 12 months so might be largely resolved but there are definitely a few areas that are still a bit rough even on the 158's.

So 197s with an axle weight of c. 11 tonnes are too heavy for the coast but 97s with an axle weight of c. 18 tonnes are ok? Hmmm.