Class 319 Northern departure

[D6700]

all but one of the 331/1s have now transferred over

Looks like the last one should go over next Thursday:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:28770/2023-12-28/detailed

 

[507021]

What about the interiors makes them "far superior?"
They have a TV-style PIS and a USB sockets, and:

Better seats which don't feel like I'm sat on the floor and allow me to see out of the window properly, more legroom, an interior colour scheme which isn't headache inducing, a quieter saloon, being warm in the colder months and windows that don't rattle or fall open when another train passes at speed are what I can think of at the moment. The ride quality of the 323s is also better, come to think of it. When you've actually had to put up with regularly travelling on poor quality rolling stock like 142s, 150s and 319s for several years or more, maybe you'd understand why many of us in the North West are welcoming the arrival of more 323s with open arms and appreciate the improvement in the quality of rolling stock.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Better seats which don't feel like I'm sat on the floor and allow me to see out of the window properly, more legroom, an interior colour scheme which isn't headache inducing, a quieter saloon, being warm in the colder months and windows that don't rattle or fall open when another train passes at speed are what I can think of at the moment. The ride quality of the 323s is also better, come to think of it. When you've actually had to put up with regularly travelling on poor quality rolling stock like 142s, 150s and 319s for several years or more, maybe you'd understand why many of us in the North West are welcoming the arrival of more 323s with open arms and appreciate the improvement in the quality of rolling stock.

I don't appreciate that. Living north of Cardiff, those are the exact trains I have had to put up with, and still do.

I don't disagree the 323s are an improvement, I just don't think they're particularly great. They're soon to be among the oldest EMUs in England, and I personally don't think any stock with open and close windows or lack of air con should be part of a long term fleet plan these days.

 

[prod_pep]

I could think of many words to describe the service the 319s have provided during their stint up North, but 'sterling' certainly isn't amongst them. They were dreadfully reliable for years and have been nothing like the advancement on diesel traction they should have.

During the over two-year stint I used the Chat Moss line weekly from 2017 to early 2020, diesel substitutes for 319s were an almost daily occurrence, and other 319-booked service were often cancelled. In that time I didn't see a 323 subbed for any other traction once. I quickly learnt to aim for the 323-booked runs for a more comfortable - and reliable - journey.

323s aren't perfect and I concede the 331s are better in many ways, but both are enormously superior to the 319s in all departments.

 

[507021]

The thing with 323s is, while yes there's not much of a difference between the amount of seats it's the standing room that'll be reduced which as a personal opinion is more important. You say that 323s are warm in the winter, however being squashed into a 323 doorway during the summer will feel like hell on earth, especially if there's no air con like the 331s have. They could make the aisles 2+2 seating for more standing room, however it's Northern and they obviously won't do that.

A fair point, but as I said, the 323s can be deployed in pairs which will negate the slight reduction in capacity. I've highlighted the 323s having better heating because I spent a few years travelling between Liverpool and Manchester every weekend, and during the winter months, every single 319 journey was freezing at best. I've also been using 323s for several years and have yet to experience a single unit which was even slightly cold.

I don't appreciate that. Living north of Cardiff, those are the exact trains I have had to put up with, and still do.

I really don't have any sympathy, I'm afraid. I lived in South Wales from 2000 until 2005 and regularly travelled to Barry Island, Penarth and on the Valley Lines on rolling stock which was of appalling quality and the service provision wasn't great either. I can tell you now, 150s refurbished to TfW specification would have been welcomed with open arms back then. Thankfully, rail transport in South Wales has improved massively since then, with further significant improvements still to come. In the North West, our knackered 1980s cast-off EMUs are being replaced by further cast-offs which are a marked improvement, but aren't much newer. Meanwhile, our 15x fleet is likely to be here for several more years. I'll also add there's a huge difference between a well-refreshed 150 on Cardiff radial services to a single unrefurbished 142 or 150 on Liverpool-Manchester and Manchester-Sheffield services, a wholly unacceptable service provision I endured for three years, many others for far longer.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I really don't have any sympathy, I'm afraid. I lived in South Wales from 2000 until 2005 and regularly travelled to Barry Island, Penarth and on the Valley Lines on rolling stock which was of appalling quality and the service provision wasn't great either. I can tell you now, 150s refurbished to TfW specification would have been welcomed with open arms back then. Thankfully, rail transport in South Wales has improved massively since then, with further significant improvements still to come. In the North West, our knackered 1980s cast-off EMUs are being replaced by further cast-offs which are a marked improvement, but aren't much newer. Meanwhile, our 15x fleet is likely to be here for several more years. I'll also add there's a huge difference between a well-refreshed 150 on Cardiff radial services to a single unrefurbished 142 or 150 on Liverpool-Manchester and Manchester-Sheffield services, a wholly unacceptable service provision I endured for three years, many others for far longer.

This isn’t a competition, nor is it a need to be unnecessarily hard or resentful. It isn’t my fault my local trains are in a better state than they were when you lived there. A situation can still be unfortunate when another situation is arguably worse. Let’s just agree that we’ve both had to deal with crappy trains and it’s high time the 319s were gone! Hopefully they’ll be gone this time next month.

Does anyone know what happened to the lone 323 that transferred up north?

 

[Liam L]

Does anyone know what happened to the lone 323 that transferred up north?

Been at Allerton since Transfer.

I personally don't think any stock with open and close windows or lack of air con should be part of a long term fleet plan these days.

Agreed. I won't miss the boiling summers on the cross city once the 730s are in.

 

[jfollows]

They get used on the Stoke line.

6-car sets cause problems to Stoke; clearly they won’t fit in the bay platform, and down platforms at Prestbury and Cheadle Hulme are too short, so the rear one or two carriages are locked out for the down journey. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-6-car-stoke-diagrams.225378/

 

[stan claire]

A fair point, but as I said, the 323s can be deployed in pairs which will negate the slight reduction in capacity. I've highlighted the 323s having better heating because I spent a few years travelling between Liverpool and Manchester every weekend, and during the winter months, every single 319 journey was freezing at best. I've also been using 323s for several years and have yet to experience a single unit which was even slightly cold.

Some routes that might've used 319s in the past might not have the right platform lengths for 6 car units and with them not having SDO they'd end up having to lock part of the train out of use. I've seen an 8 car 319 one time and they've had to do a similar thing
Also even though 323s have better heating for the winter would they have better ventilation for the summer? Or will there be more news articles about how people have been passing out on trains and Northern with all their competence saying that the train is safer when it's overcrowded?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Some routes that might've used 319s in the past might not have the right platform lengths for 6 car units and with them not having SDO they'd end up having to lock part of the train out of use.

That's what the platform extensions are for, Ince, Hindley, Westhoughton and Newton-le-Willows.
Although not sure how the small stations between Bolton and Salford Crescent are going to work, I'm not aware of them being extended and they're not long enough.

 

[darylyates17]

Is it safe to assume they’ll be no more non scrap 319 diagrams other than the unit at Springs Branch returning to Allerton?

 

[50032]

Is it safe to assume they’ll be no more non scrap 319 diagrams other than the unit at Springs Branch returning to Allerton?

Hard to say for definite, but that's my best guess. There have been no 319s out today.

I suppose a spate of 331 failures could see the odd 319 pressed into service - until they've all gone for scrap, that is.

 

[52290]

That's what the platform extensions are for, Ince, Hindley, Westhoughton and Newton-le-Willows.
Although not sure how the small stations between Bolton and Salford Crescent are going to work, I'm not aware of them being extended and they're not long enough.

They've extended the platforms at Leyland using the overgrown bits that had been taken out of use many years ago.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

They've extended the platforms at Leyland using the overgrown bits that had been taken out of use many years ago.

that's how they're doing both at Ince and Hindley's Wigan bound platform.

 

[darylyates17]

Hard to say for definite, but that's my best guess. There have been no 319s out today.

I suppose a spate of 331 failures could see the odd 319 pressed into service - until they've all gone for scrap, that is.

I’ve just heard what sounded like a 319 (might have been a 769) just pass near Lea Green but not showing on RTT. It’s showing up on Traksy as 5Y66 but with no info.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I’ve just heard what sounded like a 319 (might have been a 769) just pass near Lea Green but not showing on RTT. It’s showing up on Traksy as 5Y66 but with no info.

No picture on it but it is showing on the menu to the left, formed from 2W66 1832 Southport to Manchester Victoria, which didn't go to Stalybridge (train crew)

 

[507021]

This isn’t a competition, nor is it a need to be unnecessarily hard or resentful. It isn’t my fault my local trains are in a better state than they were when you lived there. A situation can still be unfortunate when another situation is arguably worse. Let’s just agree that we’ve both had to deal with crappy trains and it’s high time the 319s were gone! Hopefully they’ll be gone this time next month.

Does anyone know what happened to the lone 323 that transferred up north?

I know it's not your fault. I was just pointing out that while 150s of any sort still being in service today is far from ideal, the TfW examples really aren't that bad compared to what came before them. They're still dreadful trains, but as they are now, they'd have been a been a significant improvement. The 150s which replaced our Pacers are no improvement whatsoever, even after a refresh. It's now I get to my main point and steer us back on topic, it's scenarios like those which is why the arrival of more 323s is being celebrated. No, they're not perfect and could do with air conditioning if they're sticking around long term, but they are a rare improvement in rolling stock quality for local rail services in the North West. Yes, I'm more than happy to agree binning the 319s is a very good thing, hopefully the equally dreadful 769s can follow at the first opportunity.

As far as I know, 323208 hasn't entered traffic up here yet and won't be reliveried until more have transferred.

 

[GPR]

I know it's not your fault. I was just pointing out that while 150s of any sort still being in service today is far from ideal, the TfW examples really aren't that bad compared to what came before them. They're still dreadful trains, but as they are now, they'd have been a been a significant improvement. The 150s which replaced our Pacers are no improvement whatsoever, even after a refresh. It's now I get to my main point and steer us back on topic, it's scenarios like those which is why the arrival of more 323s is being celebrated. No, they're not perfect and could do with air conditioning if they're sticking around long term, but they are a rare improvement in rolling stock quality for local rail services in the North West. Yes, I'm more than happy to agree binning the 319s is a very good thing, hopefully the equally dreadful 769s can follow at the first opportunity.

As far as I know, 323208 hasn't entered traffic up here yet and won't be reliveried until more have transferred.

208 is in and out of the sheds at Allerton receiving modifications

 

[507021]

208 is in and out of the sheds at Allerton receiving modifications

Great news, thanks. Do you know anything about when it could enter service?

 

[GPR]

Great news, thanks. Do you know anything about when it could enter service?

No sorry. I don’t have any further info. I’m just a pair of boots on the ground there.

 

[507021]

No sorry. I don’t have any further info. I’m just a pair of boots on the ground there.

Thanks anyway, hopefully it's not too long.

 

[darylyates17]

No picture on it but it is showing on the menu to the left, formed from 2W66 1832 Southport to Manchester Victoria, which didn't go to Stalybridge (train crew)
View attachment 149031

I found it after i posted it forgot 769s ran on Chat Moss empty.

 

[507020]

208 is in and out of the sheds at Allerton receiving modifications

I don’t understand why it needs modifications. It ran fine with WMR and they’re the same specification aren’t they, other than for different coloured interiors?

And no 319s out tomorrow I’m guessing?

 

[childwallblues]

I don’t understand why it needs modifications. It ran fine with WMR and they’re the same specification aren’t they, other than for different coloured interiors?

And no 319s out tomorrow I’m guessing?

No trains full stop!

 

[reecestrains]

There are no trains out now until the 27th.

 

[childwallblues]

That's what the platform extensions are for, Ince, Hindley, Westhoughton and Newton-le-Willows.
Although not sure how the small stations between Bolton and Salford Crescent are going to work, I'm not aware of them being extended and they're not long enough.

Very few stations on the City Line out of Lime Street can currently take six car trains hence the use of four car trains to Blackpool North, Wigan NW and Manchester Airport,

 

[D7666]

Friday 22nd December @ 06.00:

319369

Springs B 06+11 5V01
Wigan NW 06+25 06.36 2V01
Mancr Vic 07.07 07.13 2G91
Wigan NW 07.47 08.36 2V03
Mancr Vic 09.09 09.13 2G93
Wigan NW 09.46 10+09 5W03
Springs B 10+22

319381

BlckplNCS 06+30 5V02
Wigan NW 07+36 07.39 2V02
Mancr Vic 08.09 08.13 2G92
Wigan NW 08.47 09.24 2F01
Lime St 10.12 10+30 5Y01
AllrtnDep 10+52

I suspect these may well be the final passenger workings...

Were those the last ones SO FAR i.e. did those both end on Friday at 10:22 and 10:52 per those diagrams legs, or did they come out again in the afternoon, or others ? No post after that 22\12 06:00 gen post appears to have appeared for the rest of 22\12 or after to end of traffic 24\12..

323208

I don’t understand why it needs modifications. It ran fine with WMR and they’re the same specification aren’t they, other than for different coloured interiors?

Unis can vary depot by depot within one TOC, never mind between different TOCs. There are often a myriad of differences between nominally same train type for different TOCs. Just because The ABC Of Train Numbers has them both as Class 323 does not make them the same. For a start, CIS info almost certainly needs changing, for external as well as internal displays; the respective CIS systems could possibly be quite different.

 

[50032]

Were those the last ones SO FAR i.e. did those both end on Friday at 10:22 and 10:52 per those diagrams legs, or did they come out again in the afternoon, or others ? No post after that 22\12 06:00 gen post appears to have appeared for the rest of 22\12 or after to end of traffic 24\12.

Correct, these were the last workings to date. No 319s ran on 23/12 or 24/12. It remains to be seen whether any will make it out tomorrow and beyond.

One thing's for certain, 319369 is still at Springs Branch and will have to return to Allerton at some point. But whether this is as a one-off ECS move, or placed onto a passenger diagram to get it home, I do not know.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Correct, these were the last workings to date. No 319s ran on 23/12 or 24/12. It remains to be seen whether any will make it out tomorrow and beyond.

One thing's for certain, 319369 is still at Springs Branch and will have to return to Allerton at some point. But whether this is as a one-off ECS move, or placed onto a passenger diagram to get it home, I do not know.

Nothing was needed on Christmas Eve because Northern barely ran anything in the first place!

 

[D7666]

Correct, these were the last workings to date. No 319s ran on 23/12 or 24/12. It remains to be seen whether any will make it out tomorrow and beyond.

One thing's for certain, 319369 is still at Springs Branch and will have to return to Allerton at some point. But whether this is as a one-off ECS move, or placed onto a passenger diagram to get it home, I do not know.

tx