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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

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Goldfish62

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TRAX said:
I’m not sure it’s perfect yet
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Ready as in the trains have been running in passenger service for ages.

I don't think the software on the 458s has ever been perfected, but they've managed 22 years and counting.
 
Mikey C

Mikey C

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Goldfish62 said:
Ready as in the trains have been running in passenger service for ages.

I don't think the software on the 458s has ever been perfected, but they've managed 22 years and counting.
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The 710s started entering service 3 years ago, and seem to be operating ok with the Bangalore software
 
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CDM

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samuelmorris said:
If it's not all about the cab ends, how have so many 720s been accepted for service? I'm not doubting the reports of the issues, just baffled at why the 701s are so much worse. The introduction of the previous Aventra fleets was far from problem-free but it was long ago now that I can't understand how things have got this bad.
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Same platform, but actually wildly different trains to 345/710/720.
First DC Aventra, first 10-car Aventra etc.

Energy said:
Wonder what happened to Bombardier? While the electrostars and turbostars aren't the most reliable things in the world they are nowhere near this bad, I guess the early ones were more Adtranz than Bombardier though.
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Turbostar is a simpler train than Electrostar, in lots of ways. As for Electrostars, they were also appalling in various ways throughout their introduction - even right up into the last series off the production line, they were generating new faults!
For most of the later Electrostar builds though, the pressures on introduction dates weren't as tight though (they weren't so heavily linked to cascade plans) so they didn't cause such an obvious problem. Plus each of the builds was overall less 'new and novel' to Bombardier.
Aventra was a new platform and (as above) 701's are a new/novel Aventra, plus Bombardier was in absolute choas - taking on far too many orders in too short a space of time, while having gone through several restructurings and lay-offs, changing their supply chains, relying heavily on contract labour (so you lose retained knowledge/motivation/care about quality etc) and overall, being absolutely cash strapped - none of which helps you build a good product and be able to solve problems quickly and properly, when they do arise.
fgwrich said:
Part of me feels that they were quite happy to let their reputation and brand proceed themselves, particularly after the Thameslink debacle where they quite often pretended to be a British firm heavily let down by the government after awarding it to a big bad German firm (despite Siemens having more UK pedigree, and Bombardier Transportation being a French Canadian firm headquartered in Berlin). Quite often they seemed to be good at selling you the dream, without either delivering it (See London Underground's SSL re-signalling project for another Bombardier farce) or delivering it late (Class 172s for another example).
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Yep - Bombardier are the masters at over-promising, over-selling and under-delivering. They're an absolute shambles, IMO.
tomuk said:
I can't understand how the 701s can be so bad there are other Aventras in service. Heck Elizabeth line are running near 100% PPM in the core with the more complicated 345s.
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345's arguably less complex - running pretty much Electrostar software and with additional redundancy (which can help you work round faults when they arise). Either way though, they're still *massively* late don't forget - the tunnel late delivery entirely masking the atrociously late delivery of the units themselves! If the tunnel had been on time, it would have been sat there empty for years, waiting for the train to catch up.
fgwrich said:
As well as being different (don’t forget there’s a few years difference between the earliest 345 and the first 701), the software is completely different as well - unless it’s been updated since, they were running around with an updated Electrostar Software package in them - In short, they were built before Bombardier Bangalore had the Aventra software package ready.
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Correct.
Goldfish62 said:
It's clearly ready on the 710 and 720!
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Different train as mentioned earlier - DC pick up rather than AC pickup. And 10-car versus 5-car or 4-car (makes a big difference).
Also, you're assuming that 720 software is stable, fully functional etc (hint: it isn't, it's no-where near which is why some services aren't being run as 720 yet and why some aren't being run at full length!)
 
Mikey C

Mikey C

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CDM said:
Same platform, but actually wildly different trains to 345/710/720.
First DC Aventra, first 10-car Aventra etc.
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Some of the Class 710s are dual voltage, as they operate on the Watford DC line
 
43096

43096

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CDM said:
345's arguably less complex - running pretty much Electrostar software and with additional redundancy (which can help you work round faults when they arise). Either way though, they're still *massively* late don't forget - the tunnel late delivery entirely masking the atrociously late delivery of the units themselves! If the tunnel had been on time, it would have been sat there empty for years, waiting for the train to catch up.
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The 701 is a bog standard 750V DC EMU, whereas the 345, which although it is 25kV AC only, has to run with multiple signalling systems (ETCS, TPWS/AWS, Crossrail core) with the changes between them. That alone makes them more complicated than the Aventras, all of which are nothing really new or revolutionary.
 
Fincra5

Fincra5

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Bald Rick said:
certainly the 701s have ETCS. Whether it is activated or not is a different matter.
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Don't most of the more modern DMUs, EMUs, etc, have ETCS built in as standard for future use? With it just inhibited or isolated to Level NTC (Aws/Tpws).

Digital Ready if you like ;)
 
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Bald Rick

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Fincra5 said:
Don't most of the more modern DMUs, EMUs, etc, have ETCS built in as standard for future use? With it just inhibited or isolated to Level NTC (Aws/Tpws).

Digital Ready if you like ;)
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not all of them. Some are just ‘ETCS Ready’ which means systems architecture is fit, and there’s a space on the drivers desk For the ETCS screen.

be interesting to know if the 93s and 99s are coming fully fitted.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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43096 said:
The 701 is a bog standard 750V DC EMU, whereas the 345, which although it is 25kV AC only, has to run with multiple signalling systems (ETCS, TPWS/AWS, Crossrail core) with the changes between them. That alone makes them more complicated than the Aventras, all of which are nothing really new or revolutionary.
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The traction inverters are the same on 7xx Aventras either fed direct off DC or through a front end DC link off the 25kV transformer. The fact they are allowed on the main line for testing is because mechanically and electrically they are proven. Its the rest of the train that appears to be riddled with problems although I wouldn't be surprised to find SWR or their consultant reps have a different standard to what is acceptable to GA or even C2C who are cracking on with their micro fleet of Aventras. That said when you have poor initial build and the supplier continues to supply poor quality products despite saying they've sorted out their issues the customer doesn't want to give any concessions in my experience
 
TRAX

TRAX

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CDM said:
Same platform, but actually wildly different trains to 345/710/720.
First DC Aventra, first 10-car Aventra etc.


Turbostar is a simpler train than Electrostar, in lots of ways. As for Electrostars, they were also appalling in various ways throughout their introduction - even right up into the last series off the production line, they were generating new faults!
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Some 710s drink DC juice as well.

The later Electrostars were developing new faults because they were quite different under the hood as the previous ones, starting with the 379s up to the last 387s.
 
spark001uk

spark001uk

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Does anyone know for definite if they've actually started testing ABDO yet? And how it's going if so?
 
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Dibbo4025

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There's one other key difference between the 701s and other aventras, that they'll be maintained in house not by Alstom, and the comparatively small depots on the SWR network.

This means that a large portion of the fleet is outberthed every night and it's pretty common for for a unit not to see a depot for 3 or 4 days.

The aventras need prepping like any train every 24 or 48 hours, either by a driver or a fitter. The aventra's prep by driver is complex enough and with restricted access in platforms that it requires use of auto-prep software in the TMS to perform it and as I understand it that's one of the key faults, across all aventras, still not really close to being reliable enough to rely upon.

With other operators that's not an issue, the units are on depot regularly so can be prepped by fitters so not an issue, and if there are a few outberthed for more than a couple of days since maintenance is alstom's responsibility fitters can be provided for preps here to, at Alstom's expense, but on SWR the maintenance in house and sheer number of outberthed units means this is impractical and so until this particular fault is sorted they can't be introduced, whereas other operators have been able to work around it
 
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TEW

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spark001uk said:
Does anyone know for definite if they've actually started testing ABDO yet? And how it's going if so?
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It was planned to come after the initial introduction of 701s and the need for it was based on a timetable now never likely to see the light of day.
 
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Nicks

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Seems SWR are confident that issues will be "resolved shortly" with this fleet - this is announced in their new business plan issued yesterday.
 
fgwrich

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Nicks said:
Seems SWR are confident that issues will be "resolved shortly" with this fleet - this is announced in their new business plan issued yesterday.
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I’ll have to take a read of it, as BBC South and Rail’s Paul Clifton has said both on South Today and Twitter, that there is “Vanishingly Little” about the new fleet. Even on the 18:30 broadcast tonight, SWR didn’t really have much to expand on over them. Possibly I wonder, if First Groups Lawyers are now involved?

It also feels like deliveries seem to have slowed down at the moment?

And just to add to it all, SWR seem to have introduced a new comedy slogan of “We’re on a journey to Better”. Well, as a regular user of you, no, not really.
 
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