Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

43096

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
9,095
London Midland had a 350 random allocation machine, it was pretty common for 3+2 seated /2 units to be on the long distance routes and the 2+2 seated units on the shorter routes.
The London Midland random unit allocator was inherited from Central Trains.
All of this reminds me of the 323 interior spec, where some units had additional luggage racks for serving Manchester Airport. Apparently nobody told them that the Airport runs share their diagrams with the Stockport ones.
From memory, when first built (both the 323s and the Manchester Airport branch) there was a dedicated shuttle from Piccadilly to the Airport that needed either 2 or 3 units (can't remember which), hence the three units built with extra luggage space. The service pattern soon changed, however.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

dk1

Established Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
9,149
Location
East Anglia
Is it fair to say that AGA would be utterly stuffed if Covid had not happened? Or is Covid causing a major staff shortage at Crown Point which translates to a shortage of 745s?
Oh yes, it wouldn’t be a shining example for sure. It’s only the last week that staffing has been an issue.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,303
Location
East Anglia
Greater Anglia have been bailed out by COVID really, the flaws in their bid would have been heavily exposed without it for being as flawed as they were and there would be serious shortages of rolling stock leading to overcrowding and they'd have took a massive financial hit as well.

Now with the franchising system dead, demand suppressed and temporary timetables they've been very fortunate to say the least.
 

RailWonderer

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2018
Messages
434
Location
All around the network
London Midland had a 350 random allocation machine, it was pretty common for 3+2 seated /2 units to be on the long distance routes and the 2+2 seated units on the shorter routes.
Bit unfair on LM, they did a much better job than LNR at keeping /1s and /3s on longer distance services and /2s on shorter ones.

This time last year I was voicing serious concerns about a looming crisis of gross stock shortages on GA, a month before COVID hit. No one could have known it would be GA's saving grace.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
1,886
Bit unfair on LM, they did a much better job than LNR at keeping /1s and /3s on longer distance services and /2s on shorter ones.

This time last year I was voicing serious concerns about a looming crisis of gross stock shortages on GA, a month before COVID hit. No one could have known it would be GA's saving grace.
I'd imagine that the 745s would be concentrated on the Norwich line with more 317s retained to fill the gaps on West Anglia.
 

Chiltern006

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2018
Messages
333
how easy is it to retrofit tables to the /1s and can it be done at Crown Point with Stadlers help? even if the /1s had tables i think a lot more people would be happier

do the 379s have tables?
 

Astro_Orbiter

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2019
Messages
132
Location
UK
how easy is it to retrofit tables to the /1s and can it be done at Crown Point with Stadlers help? even if the /1s had tables i think a lot more people would be happier

do the 379s have tables?
Yes, the 379's are really decent spec inside (at least they would be with a quick refresh), the first class section on them is pretty lavish for the south east of England!
It does seem bizarre that the /1 don't even have tables, they look unfinished. Like you say, if they had tables but no 1st, buffet or vestibule doors nobody would care so much.
 

dk1

Established Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
9,149
Location
East Anglia
how easy is it to retrofit tables to the /1s and can it be done at Crown Point with Stadlers help? even if the /1s had tables i think a lot more people would be happier

do the 379s have tables?
No doubt it could be done at Crown Point however I dont think there is any will to do it. That's how they where ordered and designed to be. Fold down tables are available at airline seats.
 

Astro_Orbiter

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2019
Messages
132
Location
UK
I'd imagine that the 745s would be concentrated on the Norwich line with more 317s retained to fill the gaps on West Anglia.
Trouble is, GA are being constantly chased by PRM deadlines and other things. Made sense to replace the hauled sets first, and the DMU's, but a fair chunk of the 317 fleet was not compliant and couldn't stay, which meant the 745 *had* to come in to free up 379 for 317 diagrams.
Only other option I reckon would have been to take on 315's from TFL for Hertford East services, I don't reckon the 75mph top speed would affect it that much as the only sections where trains realistically get above 60mph is between Tottenham and Ponders End, and Cheshunt/Broxbourne.
The West Anglia, particularly stations along the Lea Valley is constructed by the necessity for lookback DOO, which means 321 is not able to work over there.
 

306024

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2013
Messages
2,991
Location
East Anglia
how easy is it to retrofit tables to the /1s and can it be done at Crown Point with Stadlers help? even if the /1s had tables i think a lot more people would be happier

do the 379s have tables?

Spot On. As someone who likes to work on the train a table is more important to me than a first class seat. 379s have tables in 1st.
 

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
1,743
Location
Surrey
That's how they where ordered and designed to be. Fold down tables are available at airline seats.
It's rather unusual as this seems to be the spec that the 332s and HeX 387s were given. Gatwick Express has always had a more intercity-style layout. I would've thought tables would be desired as they make the fleet a bit more uniform, and the lack of first class too seems odd at first sight, although I assume they must've had some data to show that not many people used it or something. At least if the fleet was uniform it wouldn't have been an immediate downgrade if you had to swap out a 745/0.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
1,886
Trouble is, GA are being constantly chased by PRM deadlines and other things. Made sense to replace the hauled sets first, and the DMU's, but a fair chunk of the 317 fleet was not compliant and couldn't stay, which meant the 745 *had* to come in to free up 379 for 317 diagrams.
Only other option I reckon would have been to take on 315's from TFL for Hertford East services, I don't reckon the 75mph top speed would affect it that much as the only sections where trains realistically get above 60mph is between Tottenham and Ponders End, and Cheshunt/Broxbourne.
The West Anglia, particularly stations along the Lea Valley is constructed by the necessity for lookback DOO, which means 321 is not able to work over there.
There are still non PRM 317s running as I type. A few more wouldn't make much difference. The likely alternative in a non Covid world would be dozens of cancellations.

Good point about 315s. They used to have booked work to Hertford East and from Stratford to Stansted Airport. Timekeeping was not a problem.
 

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
2,239
Spot On. As someone who likes to work on the train a table is more important to me than a first class seat. 379s have tables in 1st.
The 379's have tables in standard class too. I do expect to see the odd 745/1 on a Norwich diagram - going to/from the depot. But it is the amount of 745/0's on Stansted's that really makes the situation laughable. I'm sure it was 50% or more on some days in the hands of 754/0's.
On another note, it seems like WA drivers don't like using the speed hold feature as much as they do on the GEML.
 

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
2,239
Seems to be a number of reasons. Class 379's tend to be driven in an on/off fashion reach line speed, coast until speed drops by 5 to 10mph - then full power back to line speed. So it might be a cultural thing. On the Lea Valley section there are a lot of level crossings that can sometimes be slow to close and offer a clear signal - so maybe drivers avoid running too fast. Then again - you could set the speed hold to 70-75mph. And finally the section times are all more than easily attainable with a 379, whereas a 317 seems to require almost being driven flat out to achieve the sectional times - mainly due to their slower acceleration.
Just my observations. Not a criticism!
 

20atthemagnet

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2019
Messages
161
Location
England
Seems to be a number of reasons. Class 379's tend to be driven in an on/off fashion reach line speed, coast until speed drops by 5 to 10mph - then full power back to line speed. So it might be a cultural thing. On the Lea Valley section there are a lot of level crossings that can sometimes be slow to close and offer a clear signal - so maybe drivers avoid running too fast. Then again - you could set the speed hold to 70-75mph. And finally the section times are all more than easily attainable with a 379, whereas a 317 seems to require almost being driven flat out to achieve the sectional times - mainly due to their slower acceleration.
Just my observations. Not a criticism!
Sort of. Used to drive them and I can tell you 379s are useless at holding speed. When they coast they drop of rather quickly and don't roll well at all. Also they are one of only a few units I've driven where the power notches equate to a set rate as opposed to an effort. This makes it impossible to hold a speed, as even at 90mph in the first notch of power, you'll still accelerate, just very very slowly. So indeed for any great distance to hold a speed as you describe is on off on off on off. 317s complete opposite, get up to speed back off 2 notches and it will sit there all day long.

Also on WA the use of speed hold was prohibited for the duration I was there, as it can be used (although it shouldn't) for braking, resulted in an embarrassing failed to call many moons ago on the GE on a 90, so most likely as you say its habitual not to use it even if its allowed on the 745s
 

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
2,239
Sort of. Used to drive them and I can tell you 379s are useless at holding speed. When they coast they drop of rather quickly and don't roll well at all. Also they are one of only a few units I've driven where the power notches equate to a set rate as opposed to an effort. This makes it impossible to hold a speed, as even at 90mph in the first notch of power, you'll still accelerate, just very very slowly. So indeed for any great distance to hold a speed as you describe is on off on off on off. 317s complete opposite, get up to speed back off 2 notches and it will sit there all day long.

Also on WA the use of speed hold was prohibited for the duration I was there, as it can be used (although it shouldn't) for braking, resulted in an embarrassing failed to call many moons ago on the GE on a 90, so most likely as you say its habitual not to use it even if its allowed on the 745s
Is there speed hold on the 379's?
Thanks for your input.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
6,531
And finally the section times are all more than easily attainable with a 379, whereas a 317 seems to require almost being driven flat out to achieve the sectional times - mainly due to their slower acceleration.
No changes in Running times when Class 379s came into service over Class 317s so a Class 317 can still keep time with a Class 379.
 

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
2,239
No changes in Running times when Class 379s came into service over Class 317s so a Class 317 can still keep time with a Class 379.
Yes - the sectional running times are identical for a 379 and 317. The 379's superior acceleration allows them to achieve faster sectional times in practice due to a combination of better acceleration and better traction in the wet having more motored axles - plus more modern traction electronics / wheelslip detection etc.
Getting back to speed hold devices - I'm sure Class 90 drivers used it extensively for many years.
Maybe the ban on using Class 379 speed hold is WA specific. Though I have noted in use albeit rarely on the WA 745s.
 
Last edited:

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
1,886
Yes - the sectional running times are identical for a 379 and 317. The 379's superior acceleration allows them to achieve faster sectional times in practice due to a combination of better acceleration and better traction in the wet having more motored axles - plus more modern traction electronics / wheelslip detection etc.
Getting back to speed hold devices - I'm sure Class 90 drivers used it extensively for many years.
Maybe the ban on using Class 379 speed hold is WA specific. Though I have noted in use albeit rarely on the WA 745s.
There is no doubt that the 379s are more powerful but I've had some wild runs with 317s arriving early at every stop.
 

ChristopherJ

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2005
Messages
400
Location
London, UK
Perhaps there isn't enough juice to charge these new gas-guzzling smartphones in NR Anglia's power supply. :lol:

I did hear the 745s transformers and converters were failing due to high power demand, so perhaps the AC/USB outlets have been turned off to lighten the power load?

The 321 Renatus are the most bizarre, some units have plated over AC outlets, whilst others don't. It's a lottery if you get a unit with charging points.
 

20atthemagnet

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2019
Messages
161
Location
England
Yes - the sectional running times are identical for a 379 and 317. The 379's superior acceleration allows them to achieve faster sectional times in practice due to a combination of better acceleration and better traction in the wet having more motored axles - plus more modern traction electronics / wheelslip detection etc.
Getting back to speed hold devices - I'm sure Class 90 drivers used it extensively for many years.
Maybe the ban on using Class 379 speed hold is WA specific. Though I have noted in use albeit rarely on the WA 745s.

No. The ban was companywide. Would make no sense to ban it on WA when the incident happened on the GE on a Class 90. It was a ban for all units with speed hold function, previous to the incident it was used extensively on Class 90's, eventually I assume it was lifted between the time I left and the introduction of 745s
 

Top