Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[43066]

Only going by what I’ve been told from my source, which was the date they had been told for handover (June), would not happen, but as we all know, many people say different things, or have not even been updated with the latest news.

Thoroughly fair comment, old chap, and always good to compare notes. For the record, I’m not suggesting your gen is wrong. I realise you’re a genuine source, and I appreciate your informed input, as always.

And am sure we can both agree, I don’t think any milestone on this project has been adhered to, and until I see a unit handed to EMR, I won’t actually believe any dates quoted

Abso-bloody-lutely.

A pay deal to learn them and drive them still needs to be thrashed out with ASLEF at some point. That “delicate” matter still hasn’t been broached, AFAIK. Potentially in the current pay talks.

 

[tram21]

Interesting that the alleged entry in to service is in November and not the December timetable change

There's already a couple (4?) 810-ready diagrams, so there's no need to wait until then. They can be introduced as and when they are ready. I may be wrong but I think minor tweaks will be needed for the entire introduction, but that'll be December 2026+, so not something to worry about just yet

 

[Kneedown]

It's surprising, they were always so reliable. Their cousins, the Voyager fleet works similarly hard and has no issues. Etches Park depot was designed with the 222s in mind and the fleet becomes a "closed" fleet every night, with no units stabled at stations or in sidings, I believe*. It's a shame to see a good fleet of trains being run down.

No 180s or HSTs to take up the slack = less maintenence time for 222s. They're on depot for fuel, quick clean, then out in traffic again. It's even hard to get on a 222 on nights at Etches for Driver training as the turnround is so short. I was lucky to be allowed 30mins on a set last week, and even then Hitachi umm'd and arr'd before agreeing.

 

[Meerkat]

A pay deal to learn them and drive them still needs to be thrashed out with ASLEF at some point. That “delicate” matter still hasn’t been broached, AFAIK. Potentially in the current pay talks.

Do you mean a general pay deal or asking for more money to drive new trains?

 

[43066]

Do you mean a general pay deal or asking for more money to drive new trains?

Call it what you like. There will need to be a training agreement, as per long standing railway industry practice.

 

[Meerkat]

Call it what you like. There will need to be a training agreement, as per long standing railway industry practice.

That really should be a tick box without any financial implications.

 

[43066]

That really should be a tick box without any financial implications.

Should be according to whom?

It’s longstanding industry practice that such agreements are part of pay negotiations, and that’s expected to be the case here. Not a lot of point discussing it any further really!

 

[Meerkat]

Should be according to whom?

It’s longstanding industry practice that such agreements are part of pay negotiations, and that’s expected to be the case here. Not a lot of point discussing it any further really!

Things don’t get better by doing whats always been done, and it would be shocking for introduction of the 810s to be held to ransom.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Thoroughly fair comment, old chap, and always good to compare notes. For the record, I’m not suggesting your gen is wrong. I realise you’re a genuine source, and I appreciate your informed input, as always.



Abso-bloody-lutely.

A pay deal to learn them and drive them still needs to be thrashed out with ASLEF at some point. That “delicate” matter still hasn’t been broached, AFAIK. Potentially in the current pay talks.

Do drivers need to be paid a wage increase to learn a new train then ?
Just wondering if airline pilots get a salary increase if they upgrade from say an A330 to an A350

 

[LowLevel]

Do drivers need to be paid a wage increase to learn a new train then ?
Just wondering if airline pilots get a salary increase if they upgrade from say an A330 to an A350

To be fair the normal agreements are things like changing the usual rest day patterns of crews for training and handling which particularly for drivers doesn't usually fit in a standard 4 day week working pattern.

Otherwise it depends on if responsibilities/workload change.

I'd expect more of a push back from the train managers depending on what they want to do with crewing - currently double sets are diagrammed two TMs, they're inevitably going to want to follow LNER and GWR in having one.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Incidentally just noticed there's what I assume is an 810 out today, 5Q41/5Q42.

Ran Wed, Thu, Fri this week, and was in for Tue but cancelled, acc to realtimetrains

 

[chuff chuff]

Do drivers need to be paid a wage increase to learn a new train then ?
Just wondering if airline pilots get a salary increase if they upgrade from say an A330 to an A350

Can't ever remember getting a pay increase to learn a new traction,accepting a new method of working doo or docco or whatever would attract a payment of some kind.There can be agreements to be reached regarding length of training and training weeks being 5 days instead of the usual rostered 4.

 

[Aspen90]

I believe LNER got a £7k lump sum when the Azuma’s came in. Don’t quote me but I’ve heard that a lot in the mess rooms.

 

[43066]

Things don’t get better by doing whats always been done, and it would be shocking for introduction of the 810s to be held to ransom.

It would more shocking if industry norms were disregarded, and a training agreement wasn’t reached in the usual way. Unless you want another fleet of brand new trains sitting in sidings gathering dust? I’d suggest that’s unlikely to happen and, with respect, the opinions of people outside the industry aren’t really relevant.

Do drivers need to be paid a wage increase to learn a new train then ?
Just wondering if airline pilots get a salary increase if they upgrade from say an A330 to an A350

No idea, but what does that have to do with what we’re discussing on this thread? Pilots AIUI get flight pay and health insurance, train drivers don’t. It’s interesting how the comparisons only ever go one way!

To be fair the normal agreements are things like changing the usual rest day patterns of crews for training and handling which particularly for drivers doesn't usually fit in a standard 4 day week working pattern.

Otherwise it depends on if responsibilities/workload change.

I'd expect more of a push back from the train managers depending on what they want to do with crewing - currently double sets are diagrammed two TMs, they're inevitably going to want to follow LNER and GWR in having one.

Indeed. Odd how much this subject seems to bother certain posters on here. A tiny cost in the scheme of things, which buys cooperation and (even more) flexibility than traincrew are usually expected to show to do things like come off roster for a five day week, attend training at distant locations and etc. In this case it’s fairly likely to be a one off payment AIUI, as not all depots are signing them. Something similar was agreed for the 360s IIRC.

I gather talks are in progress, so it’s fairly likely something will be agreed sooner rather than later, ahead of training commencing later this year.

 

[800001]

I believe LNER got a £7k lump sum when the Azuma’s came in. Don’t quote me but I’ve heard that a lot in the mess rooms.

£5k was the talk, as they named the door open button in the cab the ‘£5k button’.

 

[Aspen90]

£5k was the talk, as they named the door open button in the cab the ‘£5k button’.

Ah I see. I knew I’d heard something but now I know, thanks!

 

[name_required]

with respect, the opinions of people outside the industry aren’t really relevant.

Where by “people outside the industry” you mean the people paying the fares and taxes with which the railway is funded.

I have no problem with drivers being paid for any extra hours they work to train for driving the 810s, but I think most people would consider it strange if drivers asked for a salary increase for driving a new type of train (assuming the drivers’ responsibilities stayed broadly the same).

 

[43066]

Where by “people outside the industry” you mean the people paying the fares and taxes with which the railway is funded.

I have no problem with drivers being paid for any extra hours they work to train for driving the 810s, but I think most people would consider it strange if drivers asked for a salary increase for driving a new type of train (assuming the drivers’ responsibilities stayed broadly the same).

I doubt many people give it any thought, or particularly care either way, any more than I know the finer points of how civil servants or NHS staff are paid. It has been explained above why these payments are made and agreements reached, and so if people don’t like it or don’t understand it, I just don’t see the relevance? Things vary by industry, and you could equally ask why don’t drivers get private health care, when most people earning £70k-£100k probably do.

It’s just odd that it seems to wind a few people up so much, especially when they’re tiny amounts in the scheme of things (and the same people complaining seem silent on much bigger areas of questionable expense, such as rolling stock leasing etc.).

 

[Verulamius]

New article on the 810 in Rail Engineer magazine with some information on key safety imperatives during introduction.

Aurora - A new dawn for the East Midlands - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article To learn about the major rolling stock changes planned for the Midland Main Line, Rail Engineer was pleased to meet Rachel Turner, head of new trains at East Midlands Railway (EMR). The Midland Railway Main Line from London St. Pancras to Nottingham, Sheffield, Derby, and...

www.railengineer.co.uk

At the core of the new vehicle’s introduction are a significant basket of Key Safety Imperatives (KSIs). Though the overall change is deemed significant, many of the activities present either no change or minimal changes to how the railway operates today.


To ensure the focus of the independent external safety review by the Assessment Body (ASBO) is commensurate with the risk, it has been deemed that items that are new and/or novel to EMR operation, extensive and complex, and which impact safety are KSIs.


For the Aurora project, meeting these criteria are Power Changeover, Automatic Selective Door Opening, and a distributed, high-pressure, water fire suppression system for the engines.

 

[43066]

New article on the 810 in Rail Engineer magazine with some information on key safety imperatives during introduction.

Aurora - A new dawn for the East Midlands - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article To learn about the major rolling stock changes planned for the Midland Main Line, Rail Engineer was pleased to meet Rachel Turner, head of new trains at East Midlands Railway (EMR). The Midland Railway Main Line from London St. Pancras to Nottingham, Sheffield, Derby, and...

www.railengineer.co.uk

A good overview. Although the 170s appeared in the late nineties/early 00s, not the early nineties, and were of course woefully inadequate for the route.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

the opinions of people outside the industry aren’t really relevant.

Until they can't get to work because the pay deal for working new trains isn't agreed on and suddenly there are strikes plaguing the railway.

 

[43066]

Until they can't get to work because the pay deal for working new trains isn't agreed on and suddenly there are strikes plaguing the railway.

Which is why training agreements are reached specifically to help facilitate a smooth introduction to service. That’s the normal process every time a new fleet is introduced (most recently with the class 360s in EMR’s case). There’s no reason to suppose that won’t also happen here, so I have no idea why strikes are even being mentioned.

 

[Taunton]

It’s longstanding industry practice that such agreements are part of pay negotiations, and that’s expected to be the case here. Not a lot of point discussing it any further really!

I don't recall any such longstanding issues when all sorts of changes, and occasionally training, took place. It is something that has come in recent times, leading it seems to multiple cases of an entire fleet being manufactured and delivered before the first one gets used in service.

Given this substantial length of time, surely there is time there to train up new drivers from scratch. Existing drivers who want to move to the new stock, fine. Anyone who doesn't want to do so on these conditions, and is only prepared to drive the old trains now being scrapped can be made redundant. That's how it is everywhere else in the world.

 

[43066]

I don't recall any such longstanding issues when all sorts of changes, and occasionally training, took place. It is something that has come in recent times, leading it seems to multiple cases of an entire fleet being manufactured and delivered before the first one gets used in service.

Given this substantial length of time, surely there is time there to train up new drivers from scratch. Existing drivers who want to move to the new stock, fine. Anyone who doesn't want to do so on these conditions, and is only prepared to drive the old trains now being scrapped can be made redundant. That's how it is everywhere else in the world.

There is no “longstanding issue”. A training agreement will be reached with ASLEF (and RMT) in order for training to commence. This is not the same as the 701 situation at SWR, which I assume you’re referring to. The delays with the 810s, which are still being built and tested, are nothing to do with the forthcoming training agreement. None of the fleet have even been handed over to EMR as yet.

As already stated, when the class 360s were introduced to EMR, exactly the same process was followed, as it is for literally every new fleet. This is really not unprecedented, or anything that’s likely to cause a delay. And nobody is going to be made redundant!

The one issue that might cause some consternation on the RMT side, as @LowLevel alludes to above, is having one TM on multiple 810 ops. This already happens on the 360s, so I’m not sure when the state of play is there vis-a-vis intercity ops, or whether it’s even something the company will push for as it doesn’t generally happen on the Meridians.

 

[Yew]

I’d suggest that’s unlikely to happen and, with respect, the opinions of people outside the industry aren’t really relevant.

As long as your definition of 'the industry' includes it's funders, for example taxpayers.

 

[InOban]

The length and content of the training programme should be agreed between the operator and the appropriate safety committee, on which, of course, ASLEF and the RMT will be represented but should not have a veto.

 

[LowLevel]

The length and content of the training programme should be agreed between the operator and the appropriate safety committee, on which, of course, ASLEF and the RMT will be represented but should not have a veto.

It is. What is agreed upon is the means of delivery. I am not sure why this is so difficult to grasp on here.

Training is almost invariably a Monday to Friday business.

Train crew rarely work Monday to Friday without a rest day in it somewhere.

You might need to roster crews with a variety of different rest day patterns on the same course.

What is agreed is a means of changing those already fixed (in my case, contractual) rest days which people may have made plans for to allow the training course to take place.

That might mean a bit of an enhanced payment for the inconvenience, time off in lieu, whatever. That's your training agreement.

Otherwise you end up with people just refusing to change their days off at short notice to attend the training course and it ends up with people doing odd days here and there which is unworkable for the classroom element in particular.

 

[Cowley]

I think that can probably wrap things up for now as far as discussing unions go. This is meant to be about the introduction of these trains and although it is related, further discussion about that side of things would be better off in a new thread please.

Thanks all

 

[PJM]

This is from Neil O`Brien MP for Harborough, on Facebook.

I met with the Rail Minister today to chase on progress with the new electric trains. They should be rolling out from Autumn - about one a week, so it will take about six months. After the coming weekend closures to May there shouldn't be any more closures this year. We also talked about timings, and I pressed him on sorting out the wasteland around Market Harborough station.

 

[800001]

This is from Neil O`Brien MP for Harborough, on Facebook.

I met with the Rail Minister today to chase on progress with the new electric trains. They should be rolling out from Autumn - about one a week, so it will take about six months. After the coming weekend closures to May there shouldn't be any more closures this year. We also talked about timings, and I pressed him on sorting out the wasteland around Market Harborough station.

I find that very hard to believe.

From sources I can’t quote, testing is still not progressing well.

10 car testing in particular is still causing massive issues.

Also progress with building at the factory is extremely slow with build quality issues. Rectification work having to be undertaken on weld issues (not same as the 80X issues) on units that have been completed.