Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston

[Falcon1200]

Has anyone from Network Rail or the Train Operators ever answered the simple question 'why trains are so often boarded so late at Euston'? That is the crux of the issue.

 

[uglymonkey]

Has anyone from Network Rail or the Train Operators ever answered the simple question 'why trains are so often boarded so late at Euston'? That is the crux of the issue.

And why does every other station seem to manage it better ( OK not perfect)? What makes Euston "unique" for this to come up time and time again?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Has anyone from Network Rail or the Train Operators ever answered the simple question 'why trains are so often boarded so late at Euston'? That is the crux of the issue.

They just cite "safety" which is ironic, because it's far more dangerous! But, sadly, someone will have to die before the railway wakes up and does something. All rail safety procedures have taken someone to die before they get implemented. It's very sad the railway can't be more proactive when it comes to safety.

 

[Wolfie]

They just cite "safety" which is ironic, because it's far more dangerous! But, sadly, someone will have to die before the railway wakes up and does something. All rail safety procedures have taken someone to die before they get implemented. It's very sad the railway can't be more proactive when it comes to safety.

If, God forbid, that happens then some senior folk in Network Rail should get serious jail time. They can't deny that they have been made aware of the situation. Perhaps that is necessary to get those folk off their asses to earn their wages.

 

[david l]

Couple of weeks ago, travelling back from Euston to the north-west on a Sunday, arrived at Euston at 12.30 ish for the 13.19 Glasgow (direct but on this day having a tour of the West Midlands including a further non-RTT diversion via Birmingham New Street passed through non-stop but then routed via Bescot!). Looked at RTT - train was in platform 1, with departure boards showing as 'being prepared'. It was on its first run of the day and had been there for some time. Strolled down to No. 1, no-one about, no barrier check, boarded straightaway, even the buffet was ready, no-one else on train other than conductor. Boarded no problem. After 13.10 passengers started arriving, having presumably been advised to board. Why so late to provoke a rush?? Having said that coach B was virtually fully reserved but yet finished up just over a quarter full.

 

[uglymonkey]

You maybe need a Youtube "influencer" or something to film it all ( on a couple of occasions) and splash it all over the news channels. Even better have a youtuber with a disability try and get on the train (and before you say, a youtuber with disabilities, not using "assist from staff). See the reaction then. I think sadly even if someone dies, it will be "mistakes were made" and then carry on as normal (for Euston)

I know several of my friends ( some with disabilities) avoid Euston like the plague for this very reason.

 

[PG]

You maybe need a Youtube "influencer" or something to film it all ( on a couple of occasions) and splash it all over the news channels.

Going by contemporary events more some action would come following a prime time tv series.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Going by contemporary events more some action would come following a prime time tv series.

Wasn't there some 'fly on the wall' series about the operation of Paddington some while ago? That station also seems to often crop up in discussions about late boarding. Was the issue exposed in that programme?

(For various reasons I watch very little television so haven't seen the series in question.)

 

[Krokodil]

I know several of my friends ( some with disabilities) avoid Euston like the plague for this very reason.

There are other reasons people with disabilities avoid Euston too. It is notorious for forgetting to unload wheelchair users, leaving them stranded on the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are other reasons people with disabilities avoid Euston too. It is notorious for forgetting to unload wheelchair users, leaving them stranded on the train.

TBH I don't think Euston is specifically bad for that, the whole railway is, it's cultural. It's so bad I want to see the railway hauled over the coals over it. I'm not generally for "auditors", but while Doug Paulley kind of is one (in a different way from the more useless ones) I completely support what he's doing for disabled people given how bad it is.

(The other day I got a gobful from an angry LNR guard* who took offence at me knocking on the window and pointing to a wheelchair user I thought he may have forgotten as he looked like he was about to walk off - goodness knows why he didn't just thank me for pointing it out even if he hadn't forgotten - it really does show what sort of a barrier people like Doug Paulley are up against, and it's really not good enough - I did get a thanks from the wheelchair user herself who indeed thought she'd been forgotten, though)

* Didn't do tickets either despite this being more common of late. Clearly one of Bletchley's "finest"

 

[Blindtraveler]

This is in danger of drifting off topic so feel free to report and start a new thread if you wanted but for me as a disabled person although not a real chair user, Dug is a total embarrassment to disable travelers generally, if we all behaved like him then the railway and indeed many other industries but soon stop allowing disabled people to use their services, I find him inflammatory and with a very large chip on his shoulder and going into things with the assumption that they won't work and being on the defensive and offensive from the off

 

[Bletchleyite]

going into things with the assumption that they won't work and being on the defensive and offensive from the off

I'll be honest, I go into any contact with the railway at present on the assumption that it won't work, and am usually proven right. And I'm not disabled.

If the railway was doing things correctly he'd have no material at all.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I'll be honest, I go into any contact with the railway at present on the assumption that it won't work, and am usually proven right. And I'm not disabled.

If the railway was doing things correctly he'd have no material at all.

Good point well made and I don't suppose you're alone by any means in fact you're not, as I often am likewise but I just feel his whole attitude stinks a little bit and as someone who also relies on assistant at various points in journeys I have sometimes had to defend myself and other disabled travellers against people like him as it quite often understandably offends and upsets staff members who at the end of the day are only human and working with a box of tools that worked once but now is in need of a bit of TLC

 

[Kite159]

@ModernRailways - there is now a departure board outside.

I do however think the stupid new board layout is part of the problem.

The outside board is great when it's throwing it down or you want to stand with the smokers to be at the back of the queue when the train gets announced with minutes to go

 

[uglymonkey]

But why is it "minutes to go" and the rush? Are the platforms further away from the concourse? Is that a contributing factor? Is it the layout? At Paddington, you can see all the platforms clearly(ish) and you can pretty much guess which is going to be your train before its called ( slowly watching customers "edge" towards the platform in anticipation) then up the platform pop on the screens, queue rush for the train.

Would it help if the cleaners got on at MKC, cleaned the train as it was going along( Other TOC's seem to do this) and get off at Euston.? So no cleaning time at the buffers at Euston at all?

 

[Krokodil]

TBH I don't think Euston is specifically bad for that, the whole railway is, it's cultural.

No, Euston was specifically named and shamed by our accessibility trainer (who is herself a user of a wheelchair who travels a lot).

 

[spyinthesky]

But why is it "minutes to go" and the rush? Are the platforms further away from the concourse? Is that a contributing factor? Is it the layout? At Paddington, you can see all the platforms clearly(ish) and you can pretty much guess which is going to be your train before its called ( slowly watching customers "edge" towards the platform in anticipation) then up the platform pop on the screens, queue rush for the train.

Would it help if the cleaners got on at MKC, cleaned the train as it was going along( Other TOC's seem to do this) and get off at Euston.? So no cleaning time at the buffers at Euston at all?

I don’t think anyone is going to pay for staff to not work 75% of their working hours.

 

[Statto]

But why is it "minutes to go" and the rush? Are the platforms further away from the concourse? Is that a contributing factor? Is it the layout? At Paddington, you can see all the platforms clearly(ish) and you can pretty much guess which is going to be your train before its called ( slowly watching customers "edge" towards the platform in anticipation) then up the platform pop on the screens, queue rush for the train.

Would it help if the cleaners got on at MKC, cleaned the train as it was going along( Other TOC's seem to do this) and get off at Euston.? So no cleaning time at the buffers at Euston at all?

It is because of the distance between the concourse & platforms, plus that you have to go down the ramp to the platforms, & with trains being called often minutes before departure, oh & add in the concourse at Euston is quite small for a major terminus too, that's the cause of the issues at Euston.

 

[Deafdoggie]

This is in danger of drifting off topic so feel free to report and start a new thread if you wanted but for me as a disabled person although not a real chair user, Dug is a total embarrassment to disable travelers generally, if we all behaved like him then the railway and indeed many other industries but soon stop allowing disabled people to use their services, I find him inflammatory and with a very large chip on his shoulder and going into things with the assumption that they won't work and being on the defensive and offensive from the off

Good point well made and I don't suppose you're alone by any means in fact you're not, as I often am likewise but I just feel his whole attitude stinks a little bit and as someone who also relies on assistant at various points in journeys I have sometimes had to defend myself and other disabled travellers against people like him as it quite often understandably offends and upsets staff members who at the end of the day are only human and working with a box of tools that worked once but now is in need of a bit of TLC

I do agree. It's thanks to his antics that trains go round with no toilets available as they don't have accessible ones, so no one gets one. And he also campaigned to get RRB wheelchair accessible so now there simply aren't any RRB a lot of the time.
I don't really like playing the disabled card, but I find a quiet mention and people are willing to help (usually!) instead of kicking up a massive fuss.

 

[Western Sunset]

I think Euston is different from other London termini in that the punters can't see the trains. This generates a degree of anxiety, let alone any other cack-handed attempts by staff to "help" the situation.
How do they arrange things in say, the US, where platforms are often not visible?

Is it largely down to short turn-round times, set swaps or other disruption? Or is it a CBA attitude by staff on the ground and poor invisible management?

 

[778]

Always remember that crushes can be quiet and subtle. Not saying that this video shows a crush, but worth remembering.

That was how the Hillsborough disaster began.

@ModernRailways - there is now a departure board outside.

I do however think the stupid new board layout is part of the problem.

Did they only change the board layout so they could make money by using the old boards for advertising? It was nothing to do with improving things for passengers but they don't want to admit that?

I think Euston is different from other London termini in that the punters can't see the trains. This generates a degree of anxiety, let alone any other cack-handed attempts by staff to "help" the situation.
How do they arrange things in say, the US, where platforms are often not visible?

Is it largely down to short turn-round times, set swaps or other disruption? Or is it a CBA attitude by staff on the ground and poor invisible management?

When people cannot see the planes at airports, does that generate anxiety in the same way?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When people cannot see the planes at airports, does that generate anxiety in the same way?

There are probably more people in airports who become anxious because they are seeing planes, to be honest. (A lot of people are scared of flying, very few people are scared of trains).

That was how the Hillsborough disaster began.

Euston isn't quite comparable, though, because that crowd isn't up against an impenetrable barrier. If it surged forward people could go onto the platforms, just as at gigs (or football matches these days) people can surge forward onto the pitch or stage as an emergency measure.

That doesn't make it OK, but comparing it to the main thing that caused people to die at Hillsborough - the now-banned pitch perimeter fencing - is a bit off to be honest.

Euston also isn't steeply terraced, which contributed to that quite significantly.

Is it largely down to short turn-round times, set swaps or other disruption? Or is it a CBA attitude by staff on the ground and poor invisible management?

I'd say at the moment it's mostly down to delays and cancellations, particularly the latter because a cancellation puts about 600 people on the concourse for 20 minutes to an hour waiting for the next train, and none of them have reserved seats, and all of them know they'll have to be quick or they'll be standing.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think Euston is different from other London termini in that the punters can't see the trains. This generates a degree of anxiety, let alone any other cack-handed attempts by staff to "help" the situation.
Or is it a CBA attitude by staff on the ground and poor invisible management?

When people cannot see the planes at airports, does that generate anxiety in the same way?

The problem really is that people know the platform will be announced sufficiently close to departure time that the only option is to sprint across the station as staff have no qualms in closing the barriers before passengers have made it. No amount of painting "do not run" on the floor will alter that. If they don't announce the platform soon enough it is clearly & simply their fault.

There will be a terrible tragedy there one day (luck runs out eventually) and saying "we painted "do not run" on the floor" won't work as a defense.

It's both staff on the ground and management to blame. Neither shine themselves in glory.

 

[hawk1911]

I'd say at the moment it's mostly down to delays and cancellations, particularly the latter because a cancellation puts about 600 people on the concourse for 20 minutes to an hour waiting for the next train, and none of them have reserved seats, and all of them know they'll have to be quick or they'll be standing.

Now if only there was some sort of electronic seat booking system (up to departure) that was readily available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now if only there was some sort of electronic seat booking system (up to departure) that was readily available.

And if only the train hadn't been cancelled, thus forcing 600 people onto a train with maybe 50 available seats?

(I do think Avanti should copy LNER in having a standalone reservation option with seat selector on their app - but it wouldn't fix this problem)

 

[Western Sunset]

See it, shout it, painted...

 

[Blindtraveler]

I do agree. It's thanks to his antics that trains go round with no toilets available as they don't have accessible ones, so no one gets one. And he also campaigned to get RRB wheelchair accessible so now there simply aren't any RRB a lot of the time.
I don't really like playing the disabled card, but I find a quiet mention and people are willing to help (usually!) instead of kicking up a massive fuss.

Excellent post, definitely my nominee for post of the year so far

 

[uglymonkey]

Ok - Is Euston the only main line London terminus that has been totally reinvented, demolished and rebuilt ( bye bye arch) is that the reason? Paddington, Waterloo, King's Cross, St P. Have any of them been "gutted" ( yes OK rebuilt in part but still recognisable) to the extent Euston has? London bridge gets "crushes" if service is disrupted, but its got a stonking big concourse and they seem to have proceedures to deal with it ( OK not perfect). Liverpool Street is still Liverpool Street even after 1980's refurb.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ok - Is Euston the only main line London terminus that has been totally reinvented, demolished and rebuilt ( bye bye arch) is that the reason? Paddington, Waterloo, King's Cross, St P. Have any of them been "gutted" ( yes OK rebuilt in part but still recognisable) to the extent Euston has? London bridge gets "crushes" if service is disrupted, but its got a stonking big concourse and they seem to have proceedures to deal with it ( OK not perfect). Liverpool Street is still Liverpool Street even after 1980's refurb.

I'd say Liverpool St has. They kept the trainshed, but its innards (and that fake-old building at the end with the McRubbish in it) are totally new.

Cannon St is a complete new-build though looking remarkably like it used to albeit with a slightly fancier building on top.

But Euston is the biggest transformation. Which was needed, as the old one wasn't fit for purpose - imagine if suburban trains were maxed out at 4 car? And the "Great Hall", impressive though it looked, was about 1/3 of the size of the present concourse, it simply wouldn't have coped.

In other words, Euston would always have been rebuilt, it was just a case of when.

 

[Western Sunset]

And the LMS had plans for a rebuild, long before BR and electrification...