Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston

[PyrahnaRanger]

Now if only there was some sort of electronic seat booking system (up to departure) that was readily available.

It would help, but wouldn’t eliminate the issue - last week my train was called with less than 10 minutes to departure, and although I had a booked seat, it was at the far end of an 11 coach train. As a fit and healthy chap, not a problem, but when my IBS has flared up? Slightly more tricky. Doesn’t help that in the less than 10 minutes, they check the tickets of everyone boarding at the bottom of the ramp either, adding more delays into the process.

Is there no way they could announce the platform earlier, check people’s tickets at the top of the ramp, then use them as holding pens with staff at the bottom if they insist on doing this? (Staff rather than a physical barrier as if there’s a crush, people move easier than gates)

 

[greyman42]

Wasn't there some 'fly on the wall' series about the operation of Paddington some while ago? That station also seems to often crop up in discussions about late boarding. Was the issue exposed in that programme?

No, it never got a mention.

That doesn't make it OK, but comparing it to the main thing that caused people to die at Hillsborough - the now-banned pitch perimeter fencing - is a bit off to be honest.

The fact that the Leppings Lane end was divided in to four pens stopping people spreading out sideways also contributed.

Euston also isn't steeply terraced, which contributed to that quite significantly.

The lower Leppings Lane end is actually quite shallow.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Ok - Is Euston the only main line London terminus that has been totally reinvented, demolished and rebuilt ( bye bye arch) is that the reason? Paddington, Waterloo, King's Cross, St P. Have any of them been "gutted" ( yes OK rebuilt in part but still recognisable) to the extent Euston has? London bridge gets "crushes" if service is disrupted, but its got a stonking big concourse and they seem to have proceedures to deal with it ( OK not perfect). Liverpool Street is still Liverpool Street even after 1980's refurb.

I think that one of the main issues at Euston is that long distance trains can depart from ‘either side’, e.g. Platform 1 today but Platform 16 tomorrow because of a set swap or disruption. So people don’t have a ‘best’ place to stand.

I can hardly imagine a Chessington train to be re-platformed to Platform 23 at Waterloo or a Southend train being swapped to Platform 1 at Liverpool Street on anything like a typical day.

 

[ModernRailways]

This is in danger of drifting off topic so feel free to report and start a new thread if you wanted but for me as a disabled person although not a real chair user, Dug is a total embarrassment to disable travelers generally, if we all behaved like him then the railway and indeed many other industries but soon stop allowing disabled people to use their services, I find him inflammatory and with a very large chip on his shoulder and going into things with the assumption that they won't work and being on the defensive and offensive from the off

Having met Doug on board my train on two occasions this isn't true. He's friendly (much the same as the majority of passengers who just want to get from A to B), and he's not been defensive or inflammatory. The second time I met him he advised he had assistance booked at his destination but as I said to him, if they didn't turn up then I'd be happy to get the ramp and do it myself, he was perfectly happy with it - they were there waiting so I didn't need too.
Doug is clearly passionate about disability rights and accessibility and he's doing a good job at getting things put in place that will help everyone.

I do agree. It's thanks to his antics that trains go round with no toilets available as they don't have accessible ones, so no one gets one. And he also campaigned to get RRB wheelchair accessible so now there simply aren't any RRB a lot of the time.

If the accessible toilet isn't available then the other toilets (if available) could still be used they don't all get locked out just because the accessible one breaks. If someone in a wheelchair etc does board then they should be made aware it's out of use so they can then make a decision on whether they want to travel/wait for next train/other.
Most coaches/buses now do have lifts whether the driver can operate it is a total other matter, I know at my TOC that replacement transport has often been just standard 5 seater cars when buses have been unavailable. Should someone require an accessible taxi then this would be organised.

Euston isn't quite comparable, though, because that crowd isn't up against an impenetrable barrier. If it surged forward people could go onto the platforms, just as at gigs (or football matches these days) people can surge forward onto the pitch or stage as an emergency measure.

That doesn't make it OK, but comparing it to the main thing that caused people to die at Hillsborough - the now-banned pitch perimeter fencing - is a bit off to be honest.

Hillsborough was a totally different kind of crush to what we could see at Euston, the issue with Euston is more the flow and constant packing of people in. The ramps are there so people can use them to go forward but you still have the waves in the middle of the crush, but those ramps may also have people coming up from an inbound service.

This video goes some way to explaining crowd dynamics and crushes, may be worth a watch:

 

[Nippy]

I think that one of the main issues at Euston is that long distance trains can depart from ‘either side’, e.g. Platform 1 today but Platform 16 tomorrow because of a set swap or disruption. So people don’t have a ‘best’ place to stand.

I can hardly imagine a Chessington train to be re-platformed to Platform 23 at Waterloo or a Southend train being swapped to Platform 1 at Liverpool Street on anything like a typical day.No but that’s because Euston is quite unusual in having the Slow line platforms between the fast line platforms. Something not easily solved as that’s how all the lines between Camden and Euston have been arranged.

Euston is quite unusual in that its ‘slow line’ platforms are between the ‘fast line’ platforms. Not easily solved either as the layout between Camden and Euston is optimised for that.

All that said, the Euston layout is extremely restricted compared to Paddington to Ladbroke Grove for instance.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I can hardly imagine a Chessington train to be re-platformed to Platform 23 at Waterloo or a Southend train being swapped to Platform 1 at Liverpool Street on anything like a typical day.

Actually.... not that long ago, I was travelling on SWR and a Shepperton train departed from Waterloo Platform 5 and returned to Platform 23. So never say never...

 

[Belperpete]

Is Euston really that dangerous? In my experience, when a train is called, you have to negotiate your way through the mass of stationary people still waiting for their train to be called. Then you have to negotiate your way past all those coming the opposite way, the people queuing at the pasty shops and the like.

These impediments are frustrating, but their "collander" effect slows and thins out the rush, naturally preventing it from turning into a mass stampede. It could almost have been purpose designed......

 

[Aviator88]

Is Euston really that dangerous? In my experience, when a train is called, you have to negotiate your way through the mass of stationary people still waiting for their train to be called. Then you have to negotiate your way past all those coming the opposite way, the people queuing at the pasty shops and the like.

These impediments are frustrating, but their "collander" effect slows and thins out the rush, naturally preventing it from turning into a mass stampede. It could almost have been purpose designed......

Can you explain what you mean by the 'collander effect' please?

I'm not doubting any logic, I'm genuinely interested!

 

[Belperpete]

Consider what happens when you run a fast flow of water into a collander. It disperses and slows the flow.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If the accessible toilet isn't available then the other toilets (if available) could still be used they don't all get locked out just because the accessible one breaks. If someone in a wheelchair etc does board then they should be made aware it's out of use so they can then make a decision on whether they want to travel/wait for next train/other.
Most coaches/buses now do have lifts whether the driver can operate it is a total other matter, I know at my TOC that replacement transport has often been just standard 5 seater cars when buses have been unavailable. Should someone require an accessible taxi then this would be organised

Sorry, I clearly didn't explain it well. Many of the sprinter family of trains didn't have accessible toilets, and thanks to his campaigning the toilets they did have were permanently locked out of use to stop there being any toilets that weren't accessible. No toilets at all was fine, but if there were any, then some had to be accessible.

His campaign meant every coach on an RRB had to have wheelchair access. Whereas previously a taxi would be called if required. It's good to see TOCs are quietly ignoring the rules and using common sense

 

[Scotrail314209]

Surprisingly, Euston seems to be working quite well today. The platforms are being announced in good time, without much of a scrum. Things seem civilised.

 

[Blindtraveler]

They've been reading this forum clearly

 

[norbitonflyer]

I can hardly imagine a Chessington train to be re-platformed to Platform 23 at Waterloo

Not quite, but a late cancellation (or announcement of a delay) of a Kingston Loop or peak hour Shepperton train can result in a significant number of people having to migrate from one side of the concourse to the other - not helped by the "via Richmond" trains being timed to depart within a few minutes of the "via Kingston" ones.

 

[MP33]

On leaving Euston my train had the announcement of the platform 15 minutes before departure. The information about the next train to a destination does appear about a minute before.

On returning, following my nose to the Gents. I had to shuffle behind a train load heading towards a Manchester train, with another train load who had just arrived from Birmingham walking towards me.

 

[rg177]

Absolute stampede this morning for the 1046 Crewe. Announced at 1042 due to a late inbound arrival at about 1034.

The 1056 Birmingham was on the opposite platform, so the very busy inbound service proceeded to disgorge straight into people heading for that.

There were staff present, but they were more preoccupied with screaming at people to go stand under the boards with everyone else rather than trying to manage the passenger flow...

Awful station. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of where to stand and how to manage things - not a nice environment.

 

[oversteer]

Why can’t we walk around the front of the platforms to access the 8-11 tube entrance?

(I have occasionally done it and got a telling off)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why can’t we walk around the front of the platforms to access the 8-11 tube entrance?

(I have occasionally done it and got a telling off)

You mean the platform ends under the concourse? It is a staff only area.

 

[oversteer]

Yes. Make it usable for passengers.

 

[Travelmonkey]

My last few trips thru Euston I've decided to opt for passenger assist, the team try their best but it does add a extra step, there is many schools of thought when it comes to Euston and disabled acsess on the railway I do think there needs to be more compromise, I nearly got taken to the wrong platform on Sunday but I clocked my train was out on 7 when the bloke was about to drive me to 11, I do think selling the big screens for adverts was a mistake, them smaller screens sure I guess, I do think the outside ones are ok but the way they're implemented in the the train shed is rather janky,

There is another issue a lack of seating I know it probably ties to security but before I started using a mobility aid & swallowing my pride to need passenger assist it was a nightmare to find anywhere to comfortably stand/sit.

 

[uglymonkey]

Yes, at least at an airport there is a seating area to sit whilst you wait for the buggy/transport to take you to the plane.

 

[exbrel]

could/should there be a minimum boarding time introduced, ie 15mins displayed then if the cleaners have not done, passengers could wait on the platform, even if a train is arriving the platforms are wide enough, and i'm sure i've seen seats dotted about... or is that to simple for Euston?

 

[Bletchleyite]

could/should there be a minimum boarding time introduced, ie 15mins displayed then if the cleaners have not done, passengers could wait on the platform, even if a train is arriving the platforms are wide enough, and i'm sure i've seen seats dotted about... or is that to simple for Euston?

There are lots of solutions, some of which would work better than others (but most would provide some improvement), but grossly incompetent Network Rail seems to think poor quality, cheap, shouty security guards are the fix for everything, see also Manchester Piccadilly platform 14.

 

[Dr Hoo]

could/should there be a minimum boarding time introduced, ie 15mins displayed then if the cleaners have not done, passengers could wait on the platform, even if a train is arriving the platforms are wide enough, and i'm sure i've seen seats dotted about... or is that to simple for Euston?

I see little wrong in principle in having a 'target' minimum time. (I might even ask if there is in fact such an arrangement at Euston, albeit honoured very often in the breach than the observance. Does anyone know?) However there are a variety of circumstances where getting large numbers of passengers heading for the platform in 'good time' might cause problems.

For example, I was caught up in a short turnaround/late boarding at Euston only yesterday. The train involved was at Platform 16, with a single narrow access. Having a 400-passenger scrum piling down the ramp at the precise moment that 400 delayed arriving passengers were heading up it might not have been the best idea. (In practice the flows were kept separate and the train was 'shown', boarded and departed all 'late'.)

With two operators to various 'same' destinations and a large number of passengers on advance tickets it is highly desirable to have a ticket check in order to screen out those heading for the 'wrong' train. (Yesterday the ticket check was omitted in my case - a sensible compromise in my view.)

It is sometime necessary to undertake a set swap or there may be uncertainty over sourcing of a member of train crew. It is extremely undesirable to have a trainload of passengers spread out all along a platform and then have to try and 'retrieve' and re-direct them to another at the last minute.

Although the platforms at Euston are generally quite wide it is sensible to try and 'stagger' boarding of two trains in adjacent platforms if possible, especially as there are fairly limited information screes once you are beyond the barrier. Trying to load an xx13 train on Platform 1 and an xx16 Glasgow train on Platform 2 at virtually the same time for example could cause confusion.

So, it probably is a bit too simplistic for Euston IMHO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

P16 is and always has been a problem. It really needs a wider ramp. It was even more of a problem when there were 17-18 as well.

 

[Belperpete]

could/should there be a minimum boarding time introduced, ie 15mins displayed then if the cleaners have not done, passengers could wait on the platform, even if a train is arriving the platforms are wide enough, and i'm sure i've seen seats dotted about... or is that to simple for Euston?

I think the issue is more if the guard hasn't arrived, so the reservations aren't up and the doors are unlocked for the cleaners. Passengers will naturally start piling into the train.

 

[Taunton]

I described on the other thread the situation yesterday which seemed to have prevailed all day.

It started around 0630 with some issue at Wembley depot, reported as signals, which prevented the early starters getting down to the station. Now these trains should be fully prepared and not in need of any cleaning etc, despite which when they (at least, the ones not cancelled as a result) got to the station, late (after normal departure time), it was still "Preparing" for a considerable time. So it seems like some bureaucratic "we're ready now" message is being awaited, rather than actual work in hand.

Other services were moving from Wait status to Cancelled after their normal departure time.

Never seemed to catch up, it was still all disorganised by 1900 when I returned, with all services I encountered still notably late. Into Euston, walked up the ramp and was met going out into the concourse by a typical stampede for a train just opened up in the adjacent platform, crossing us at right angles. It really was a wonder nobody was knocked over.

The reservations seemed to go up on the inbound train some minutes before arrival, presumably for the next booked working, but I wonder if it's being anticipated that maybe there will be a last minute set swap, so hold everyone until certainty.

If a train advertised as leaving at 1900 is still Wait at 1855, and then suddenly has its platform announced with no more information about departure time, and if passengers have encountered countless messages and announcements about tickets valid ONLY on the specified train, otherwise pay again (which should be emphasised as "pay again many times what you did before"), then no wonder. One day the legal industry is going to make their own fortune from some event here.

 

[Belperpete]

I described on the other thread the situation yesterday which seemed to have prevailed all day.

It started around 0630 with some issue at Wembley depot, reported as signals, which prevented the early starters getting down to the station. Now these trains should be fully prepared and not in need of any cleaning etc, despite which when they (at least, the ones not cancelled as a result) got to the station, late (after normal departure time), it was still "Preparing" for a considerable time. So it seems like some bureaucratic "we're ready now" message is being awaited, rather than actual work in hand.

Waiting for the driver and guard to arrive and put up the reservations?

 

[Nippy]

We try to avoid 16, we generally only use it if we are stuck or for a long layover,

 

[JJmoogle]

Consider what happens when you run a fast flow of water into a collander. It disperses and slows the flow.

If you place that collander in a bowl or a sink, or some of the holes are blocked and the water is too fast and it's left unchecked it will fill.

I notice some in this thread have brought up the example of Hillsborough, whilst it's not directly comparable(lack of pens) there are some aspects that are relatable which could, in my opinion come to pass at Euston if some things went wrong.

Broadly at Hillsborough there was a complete failure of crowd management outside the entrances and incompetent decisions made within the stadium, known to be arcitecturally deficent and the site of several near misses for at least ten years prior only overcome on those occasions by matchday policing much more knowledgable about the specifics of crowd controlling the venue.

It is possible in this context to see an incident at Euston, a day of some significant disruption, staffing difficulties, poor communication, a lot of unfamilar passengers and bad luck.

An example that has come to my mind(from experiences over the years) is if there's a significant delay period and then suddenly multiple trains empty and are also called for boarding on a single ramp area and someones suitcase trips them over, few seconds later and you've got a big pile of people and luggage as the ones trying to leave and the ones trying to enter are unable to see what's going on.

 

[Dr Hoo]

This is precisely why those who advocate letting people stream onto ‘their’ platform any time that they want, regardless of arrivals on the same or adjacent platforms haven’t thought things through.