Derailment at Kirkby (Merseyside) - 13/03/2021

[Bald Rick]

Let’s just theoretically say that the train hit the TPWS ramps at about 25 with the brake in Emergency. It isn’t going to stop before the blocks, regardless of what TPWS does...

I don’t know the layout here at all, nor why the incident happened, but a train doing 25mph with the brake in emergency will stop in about 50 metres.

 

[507 001]

I don’t know the layout here at all, nor why the incident happened, but a train doing 25mph with the brake in emergency will stop in about 50 metres.

Interesting. Like I say we had heavy rain at the time so factor in some WSP activity and, well, bang?

 

[Llama]

I don’t know the layout here at all, nor why the incident happened, but a train doing 25mph with the brake in emergency will stop in about 50 metres.

That's quite a bit of a generalisation. Brake type? Adhesion conditions? Gradient?

 

[Watershed]

I don’t know the layout here at all, nor why the incident happened, but a train doing 25mph with the brake in emergency will stop in about 50 metres.

...but only if the TPWS is working (both trackside and trainside), the brakes are fully effective, and there is sufficient traction.

There is also the edge-case scenario whereby the train could pass the TPWS grids at just the right speed to avoid setting off an overspeed intervention, but then accelerate for some reason before hitting the buffers.

And, yes, 507s aren't very sprightly, but if the train was doing 12.5mph at the loops, it could have reached perhaps 20mph by the buffers.

To be honest, I'm slightly surprised that at high-risk locations such as this, there isn't a second set of grids set to 5mph or so nearer the buffers.

Anyway, the RAIB investigation will reveal all in about 12 months' time...

 

[Wezz]

Just spoken to the NR MOM who said the Crane is being used as a last resort. Hoping to drag it back on.

How the heck are they gonna drag that back on through? Isn't the underframe knackered?

 

[507 001]

That's quite a bit of a generalisation. Brake type? Adhesion conditions? Gradient?

Disk, poor, falling

...but only if the TPWS is working (both trackside and trainside), the brakes are fully effective, and there is sufficient traction.

There is also the edge-case scenario whereby the train could pass the TPWS grids at just the right speed to avoid setting off an overspeed intervention, but then accelerate for some reason before hitting the buffers.

And, yes, 507s aren't very sprightly, but if the train was doing 12.5mph at the loops, it could have reached perhaps 20mph by the buffers.

To be honest, I'm slightly surprised that at high-risk locations such as this, there isn't a second set of grids set to 5mph or so nearer the buffers.

Anyway, the RAIB investigation will reveal all in about 12 months' time...

There rumours going round that it was doing around 30mph as it entered the platform.

How the heck are they gonna drag that back on through? Isn't the underframe knackered?

Front bogie appears to be still attached. Drag it back, get it on skates, 5mph back to Kirkdale?

 

[Inversnecky]

Do we know if it derailed before crashing, or crashed because it derailed?

 

[507 001]

Do we know if it derailed before crashing, or crashed because it derailed?

It derailed when it ran off the end of the track.

 

[Llama]

It failed to stop and went through the block end.

 

[LeylandLen]

TODAYS Liverpool Echo webby still insists it wwas running from Knowsley to Liverpool. Basic research would show it was 2K48 from Liverpool to Kirkby arriving at 1854 . Merseyrail dont operate to /from Knowsley as its a FREIGHT terminal !

Railway safety regulator studying Kirkby train derailment

Kirkby station remains closed after Saturday evening's smash

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Inversnecky]

TODAYS Liverpool Echo webby still insists it wwas running from Knowsley to Liverpool. Basic research would show it was 2K48 from Liverpool to Kirkby arriving at 1854 . Merseyrail dont operate to /from Knowsley as its a FREIGHT terminal !

Railway safety regulator studying Kirkby train derailment

Kirkby station remains closed after Saturday evening's smash

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

They always say you believe everything you read in the newspaper until they report on an incident of which you have first hand knowledge!

 

[bazzoh]

Having walked across the pedestrian footbridge this afternoon it is quite clear that the unit has gone nowhere near the bridge.



Kirkby station entrance was being guarded by two police officers this afternoon and there were orange army everywhere. It’s hardly wide open.

Are they the remains of the stops underneath where the platform edging has come away?

 

[Bald Rick]

That's quite a bit of a generalisation. Brake type? Adhesion conditions? Gradient?

Sorry yes it is, quite a generalisation.

but only if the TPWS is working (both trackside and trainside), the brakes are fully effective, and there is sufficient traction.

The example I was quoting was if the brake was in emergency as it hit the grids, i.e. it’s irrelevant whether TPWS was working or not.

All hypothetical of course. I expect the answer to the primary cause will be fairly simple. What will be interesting is assessment of how it could have been prevented / lessened in severity through different controls or Mitigations.

 

[507 001]

Are they the remains of the stops underneath where the platform edging has come away?

Yes

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Briefly the lead story on tonight's BBC1 NW local news bulletin. Mentioned that the driver was taken to hospital.

 

[The Planner]

...but only if the TPWS is working (both trackside and trainside), the brakes are fully effective, and there is sufficient traction.

There is also the edge-case scenario whereby the train could pass the TPWS grids at just the right speed to avoid setting off an overspeed intervention, but then accelerate for some reason before hitting the buffers.

And, yes, 507s aren't very sprightly, but if the train was doing 12.5mph at the loops, it could have reached perhaps 20mph by the buffers.

To be honest, I'm slightly surprised that at high-risk locations such as this, there isn't a second set of grids set to 5mph or so nearer the buffers.

Anyway, the RAIB investigation will reveal all in about 12 months' time...

Had a cursory glance at the signal plan, looks like the final set of loops are in the platfrom. Set at 12.5mph.

 

[Matt9300]

Forgive me if I’m wrong, I’m new to all this but I presume this means if the train is doing over 12.5mph when it hits this point then the emergency brakes are applied.

 

[bazzoh]

Yes

Thanks!

 

[Bald Rick]

Forgive me if I’m wrong, I’m new to all this but I presume this means if the train is doing over 12.5mph when it hits this point then the emergency brakes are applied.

Yes that right, unless the equipment failed, which is very rare.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presumably on the far (non electrified) side of Kirkby station, the last Saturday evening service of the day from the Wigan direction (this after the incident) was stopped short and turned around at Rainford, and there wasn't anything due to run that way today (being a Sunday), anyway?

 

[scrapy]

Presumably on the far (non electrified) side of Kirkby station, the last Saturday evening service of the day from the Wigan direction (this after the incident) was stopped short and turned around at Rainford, and there wasn't anything due to run that way today (being a Sunday), anyway?

Yes, and trains from Manchester will turn round at Rainford, Monday and Tuesday, no plan yet for Wednesday onwards. Replacement bus Rainford to Kirkby. Pity you've then got to swap buses to carry on to Aintree for onward connections to Liverpool. Hopefully these buses will connect.

 

[Efini92]

I don’t know the layout here at all, nor why the incident happened, but a train doing 25mph with the brake in emergency will stop in about 50 metres.

The platform is 126 metres long and the logs I’ve seen all state approx 30mph.

 

[507 001]

The platform is 126 metres long and the logs I’ve seen all state approx 30mph.

Likewise. 30mph at the ramp where a full brake application was made, which I’m taking to mean ‘Emergency’.

 

[Efini92]

Must have been terrifying seeing the buffers approach at that speed. I hope the driver drives again.

 

[plugwash]

Yes, and trains from Manchester will turn round at Rainford, Monday and Tuesday, no plan yet for Wednesday onwards. Replacement bus Rainford to Kirkby. Pity you've then got to swap buses to carry on to Aintree for onward connections to Liverpool. Hopefully these buses will connect.

If you are heading to liverpool I wonder if you would do better to go via wigan and then using the service from wigan to liverpool via st hellens

 

[scrapy]

If you are heading to liverpool I wonder if you would do better to go via wigan and then using the service from wigan to liverpool via st hellens

Possibly quicker towards Liverpool although if travelling from Liverpool to Pemberton, Orrell, Upholland there is nearly an hour's wait at Wigan and the via Wigan fares much more expensive.

 

[yorkie]

Possibly quicker towards Liverpool although if travelling from Liverpool to Pemberton, Orrell, Upholland there is nearly an hour's wait at Wigan and the via Wigan fares much more expensive.

If anyone needs advice making a journey, they are welcome to post a thread in the Trip Planning section (I agree alternative routeings will be appropriate for many potential journeys, but I disagree with any suggestion of additional costs being passed to customers)

Back to discussing the incident itself please, though I do ask people to please avoid being too speculative.

 

[357]

Must have been terrifying seeing the buffers approach at that speed. I hope the driver drives again.

I agree with the first sentence, my agreement with the second largely depends on what the investigation finds.

 

[Geeves]

Northern services are running empty to Kirkby from Rainford rather than standing at Rainford for an hour.

 

[Ianno87]

Northern services are running empty to Kirkby from Rainford rather than standing at Rainford for an hour.

Do the trains have to go a certain distance down the single line for the signalling to work properly - e.g. do they need to be detected by a track circuit somewhere (e.g. at the entrance to Knowsley Freight terminal or something)?

Or is the issue the driver being able to change ends in non gangwayed units and needing a platform to do so?