Now to see if the B90/92/2K stock can hold out until then.
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DLR B23 Stock (CAF Inneo)
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Christmas / New Year is a relatively quiet time for the DLR.
There’s engineering closures at the Beckton end of the system on weekends throughout December - don’t know if they are related to testing.
DanNCL
Established Member
If the Metrocars in the north east which are in even worse condition can cling on then I have no doubt that the B90/B92/B2K stock can cling on too.
I don't know what would trigger the forced withdrawal of Metros but for the DLR, it appears that they have to be withdrawn or have a heavy overhaul when they have reached a certain mileage. As others have said, there's no chance that they will receive such an overhaul.
DanNCL
Established Member
It’s mad that these things are still only able to leave Beckton depot during a possession when the first one was delivered almost two years ago now. How badly is testing going??
The Stadler units for the Tyne & Wear Metro, the contract for which was signed after the B23 contract and the first of which arrived in the UK around the same time as the first B23, are expected in service before the end of the month. I think this highlights that CAF were the wrong choice of manufacturer for the DLR and hopefully TFL won’t make the same mistake again with the trams.
The Stadler units for the Tyne & Wear Metro, the contract for which was signed after the B23 contract and the first of which arrived in the UK around the same time as the first B23, are expected in service before the end of the month. I think this highlights that CAF were the wrong choice of manufacturer for the DLR and hopefully TFL won’t make the same mistake again with the trams.
bluegoblin7
Established Member
Have you got anything to base this on, or is it just speculation?
Because (with all the information in the public domain so far) the finger rather seems to be pointing at something other than rolling stock... (for those who are aware of my professional background, draw your own conclusions).
DanNCL
Established Member
If there wasn’t anything wrong with the trains they’d at the very least be doing test runs during service hours on the Beckton branch by now.
If it’s the trains not interfacing with the signalling correctly or there being union objections towards them that’s still an issue with the trains, even if the solution doesn’t necessarily lie with the trains themselves.
Ultimately a decision has to be made and pretty quickly to either get these things in service or to overhaul the B90s.
Nym
Established Member
Surely you're aware that enthusiast speculation is much stronger than someone working on or adjacent to the project's knowledge?
(If people can't tell from typing, I'm holding up the Sarcasm sign)
What is particularly mad is that after hanging round for so long, the DLR engineers have been given extensive possessions for more tests right through what are some of the busiest DLR weekends of the year, the Christmas shopping ones in December, given that the closed routes run to London's biggest shopping centre, the Westfield at Stratford.
Yeah I get that but the Jubilee line parallels the DLR between Canning Town and Stratford and, from personal observation, seemed to be able to take the strain - plus the DLR service between Canary Wharf and Stratford was still running of course.
And as others have alluded to, there's a lot that we, on the outside looking in, don't know about, such as when the mass withdrawals of the B90/92 stock must start and therefore when the B23 stock must enter service and therefore when the final(?) testing of the B23 stock and any new signalling software must take place.
There's no chance they'll overhaul the B90s at this late stage, it would be a waste of money for one thing.
Let’s just say these new trains had passengers on them. What exactly would be the issue?
There’s been 2 years of testing to observe how these operate, work to a timetable, correct faults etc so they should be pretty good to go you must have thought.
There’s been 2 years of testing to observe how these operate, work to a timetable, correct faults etc so they should be pretty good to go you must have thought.
My understanding is there is some incompatibility with the ATO system, possibly regarding accurate stopping at stations, although there's just no information given out at all about the issues and financial loss resulting, not even to the London Assembly, who seem to show no interest or ability whatever in determining what the problems are.
Potentially fixable by changes to the system rather than the trains, but that of course also drives the existing trains, so those have to be tested as well on the changed commands. There were some notable speed reductions introduced some months ago, particularly on downhills, which were glossed over with a statement that the "existing trains had been overspeeding" in ATO. Unnoticed for the last quarter-century, apparently ...
One wonders what credence was given to placing the new train order with Bombardier, who did the existing stock and know all aspects, rather than with someone, possibly a fraction cheaper, who had never worked with it before. And has any cost saving now all been lost.
Potentially fixable by changes to the system rather than the trains, but that of course also drives the existing trains, so those have to be tested as well on the changed commands. There were some notable speed reductions introduced some months ago, particularly on downhills, which were glossed over with a statement that the "existing trains had been overspeeding" in ATO. Unnoticed for the last quarter-century, apparently ...
One wonders what credence was given to placing the new train order with Bombardier, who did the existing stock and know all aspects, rather than with someone, possibly a fraction cheaper, who had never worked with it before. And has any cost saving now all been lost.
The issue is with the signalling system. The most recent TfL investment committee report states that very clearly. TfL are having to pay CAF to store finished trains somewhere - 40 of them are completed already.
Bombardier doesn't even exist any more
Bombardier doesn't even exist any more
I'm sure they're working on this as we speak and hopefully it won't come to the stage where an overhaul of the B90/92/2K would need to be done and the debut date for the B23 stock will hopefully be a lot closer than you think. The fact a substantial amount has been built already shows good progress in that front and the rollout into the service would go smooth. Besides I'm sure you folks wouldn't want a repeat of the Elizabeth line saga.
Snow1964
Established Member
Specifically they are blaming legacy signalling system (see 4.3 and 4.6 on page 59) of TfL Committee Board papers)
What is rather more worrying is (section 5.4 page 61) says they are exploring options on how they can introduce the trains as soon as possible. Suggests they haven't yet agreed a solution to the problem identified in December 2023 which is stopping them being used.
Not clear how much storage or problems are costing, but table (page 57) makes it clear need to allow extra £35m increasing from £907m to £942m for new trains project
Bombardier were in the short list for placing the order starting in 2017. Now part of Alstom, their established production plant for DLR cars in Bruges continues very much in business.
DanNCL
Established Member
Back when the first B23 was delivered I reckoned it would be a very close race between these and the 555s as to which would carry passengers first. Today the B23s lost that race to the 555s and by the way things are currently looking with the B23s probably by quite some margin.
I am beginning to suspect, as we finish another year of no progress, that there is some significant issue here, and the DLR engineers/management don't know what to do or how to handle it. The silence on the actual issue in hand is bizarre.
DanNCL
Established Member
I'm sure they'll enter service eventually but it does seem like it's starting to turn into a repeat of the 701 saga.
Let's change to a single Beckton to... Somewhere...
Gist of that comment still stands
Do you know, we are sure we saw the same thing advertised about weekends. But now have found out this morning that both east and west ends of the system are fully closed from December 21 to December 31 throughout. Now there's no facility to go back and look at past announcements, but it's a significant shutdown. It would be good to know just what are they doing.
I’m overseas on holiday at the moment so hadn’t checked lately. But you are right, the closure at the eastern end has definitely been extended since my earlier message.
It does now appear that there was a typo on the main TfL website, and the long closure of the Bank branch through to New Year had been also put against the Beckton line as well, when it was just closed for last weekend. They seem now to be running normally on that line, and the message has been taken off..
OneTrackMinded
Member
Surely this is the year we'll see them in service?