Do not travel warning from Chiltern!

[SussexSeagull]

So you're saying that as soon as the game was announced, Chiltern, Avanti and LNR should all have made the announcement for people not to travel to the game by rail? Can you imagine the uproar if they had done that?

It's called expectation management. As it happened some Coventry fans had to pay several hundred pounds to get a taxi home.

 

[12LDA28C]

It's called expectation management. As it happened some Coventry fans had to pay several hundred pounds to get a taxi home.

And who was to blame for that, in your view? Chiltern specifically? LNR or Avanti? Or the industry as a whole? What was the difference in approach between those Coventry fans who managed to get a train home, and those who didn't? These are the lessons that need to be learned to prevent a reoccurrence.

 

[Krokodil]

Unfortunately this isn't the 1980s and we don't have locos and spare rakes of stock sat around crewed up ready for use at the drop of a hat. If we did, that is hardly a cost-efficient way to run a railway or spend taxpayers money.

If only it was, then once they'd returned the football fans home, the loco and coaches (though DMUs would do, shame that there are no wires) could be sent here to relieve our bursting trains which were leaving people behind today.

The railway can't cope on any day that ends in a "y". Passengers are angry, staff are stressed, but the government insists upon cutting resources further.

 

[12LDA28C]

the government insists upon cutting resources further.

Indeed, it's madness.

 

[farleigh]

Ok, sure. So Chiltern should have had trains and drivers sat around in case of that eventuality? What do they then do with the trains that have been planned and advertised to call at Wembley shortly after the 90 minutes was up? Bearing in mind that many of these would have been regular timetabled services, specially lengthened to accommodate fans?



Unfortunately this isn't the 1980s and we don't have locos and spare rakes of stock sat around crewed up ready for use at the drop of a hat. If we did, that is hardly a cost-efficient way to run a railway or spend taxpayers money.

Is the railway run in a cost-efficient way?

 

[12LDA28C]

Is the railway run in a cost-efficient way?

In some areas probably not. But I'd suggest it's been many years since TOCs have allowed trains to sit around idle when they could be out in service moving passengers around.

 

[SussexSeagull]

And who was to blame for that, in your view? Chiltern specifically? LNR or Avanti? Or the industry as a whole? What was the difference in approach between those Coventry fans who managed to get a train home, and those who didn't? These are the lessons that need to be learned to prevent a reoccurrence.

Not that I am an industry expert but it looks from the outside looking in that the rail industry has lost it's ability to deal with problems or major events, which seems to be an industry wide problem no doubt caused by years of government under investment.

It is worth remembering that Coventry lost so their fans were probably straight out the stadium wanting to get home (I didn't see the match). People in the upper tiers are at a disadvantage getting to Wembley Park as it takes a while to get down to ground level plus some won't be as quick as others. Regardless some were going to be ahead of others in the queue to get on trains.

They also don't live in London and might not be regular visitors there so they might not instinctively have known how to get to Euston.

 

[43066]

As has been said previously the football authorities - Football League in this case - need to either negotiate with the TV people to have 1500 kick offs to give a bit of breathing room to fans getting home afterwards or the authorities need to step in and tell them. As it stands we have a £800 million pound stadium that half the country struggle to get home from afterwards if games go to extra time or penalties.

Why is any of that the railway’s problem?!

Is the railway run in a cost-efficient way?

The cuts being insisted on have nothing to do with that - they’re simply reducing services that are barely able to cope with existing passenger numbers, because the government has decided that more than an arbitrary level of subsidy is unacceptable. With that background it’s surprising that there aren’t endless spare units and drivers for football trains.

 

[43096]

Why is any of that the railway’s problem?!

Is the railway there to meet the needs of its customers/the country, or not?

 

[SussexSeagull]

Why is any of that the railway’s problem?!

Because it is an industry current beset with problems from top to bottom that constantly finds ways to encourage passengers to find alternative modes of transport.

 

[Horizon22]

Might be one for speculative discussion - but could more onus be put on the EFL/FA/Clubs to organise 'football specials' to ease pressure on public services? Obvious things to consider would be stock availability (how many coaches do WCRC have available + traction for example), paths on WCML/Chiltern, hire + track access costs vs ticket prices, stabling locations for these sets in London, and how much capacity would that actually give?

I've seen talk of Coventry fans wanting to attempt to bring a 'class action lawsuit' against Chiltern Railways and boycotting them. Many reports of people spending £300+ on taxis due to the issues. Personally I think it comes down to fans assuming services will be put on to convey them and then descending en masse, normally Chiltern are pretty good at events at Wembley so I can only put it down to sheer volume of people. Would be interesting to see some statistics to work out how many people were attempting to travel from Wembley to Warwick Parkway/Leamington.

The issue is primarily where people will be coming from. You have the play-off semi-final and only then are the teams determined.

Normally specials are put on, but perhaps the ASLEF overtime issues has had a part to play in this.

It doesn’t help that Wembley Stadium isn’t fit for purpose, especially for trains from the northbound. It’s quite small for the volume of people it gets on key days of the year.

I’d like to see how far that “lawsuit gets”. Football fans have to remember they aren’t the only people who want to use the railway and the provision was what it was. Chiltern were evidently well aware there might be a problem, hence their Do Not Travel advice where demand was going to significantly strip supply.

 

[43066]

Because it is an industry current beset with problems from top to bottom that constantly finds ways to encourage passengers to find alternative modes of transport.

Yet railway passenger numbers increase year on year. That rant also doesn’t actually answer the question I asked.

If the football authorities/whoever can’t agree to show games at a sensible time to enable people to get home, why is that the railway’s issue? It sounds more like the football industry doesn’t care about its own fans!

 

[PsychoMouse]

Yet railway passenger numbers increase year on year. That rant also doesn’t actually answer the question I asked.

If the football authorities/whoever can’t agree to show games at a sensible time to enable people to get home, why is that the railway’s issue? It sounds more like the football industry doesn’t care about its own fans!

The railways should be able to flex with anticipated demand.

The fact that some Cov fans couldn't get from the capital city to the second biggest city in the country early on a Saturday evening is a embarrassing farce.

God knows how bad it was yesterday with two sets of fans trying to get home to Yorkshire.

 

[12LDA28C]

The railways should be able to flex with anticipated demand.

Again, a train plan was put in place for the game running to 90 minutes. Are you suggesting that there should be one plan for that, and then another for the game running to extra time? And then maybe a third train plan for the game going to penalties? I'd love to know how you think that could be achieved and how exactly you would plan a timetable on that basis.

 

[North-Valiant]

Again, a train plan was put in place for the game running to 90 minutes. Are you suggesting that there should be one plan for that, and then another for the game running to extra time? And then maybe a third train plan for the game going to penalties? I'd love to know how you think that could be achieved and how exactly you would plan a timetable on that basis.

To be fair actually, if they had planned based on it going to extra time, and it had ended within 90 minutes, would that have been so much of a problem as fans would have just had to wait for 30 mins instead of hours?

 

[zwk500]

To be fair actually, if they had planned based on it going to extra time, and it had ended within 90 minutes, would that have been so much of a problem as fans would have just had to wait for 30 mins instead of hours?

It would have been an issue for crowd control, especially as you get further away from Wembley and the potential for rival supporters to mix increases. Not impossible - and indeed, I had to do exactly that for an FA Cup final once (1 train in for 90 mins, 2nd train was so much later in the next available path that if it went to ET/Pens that train would go first and the other train would wait for the Q path).

 

[PsychoMouse]

Again, a train plan was put in place for the game running to 90 minutes. Are you suggesting that there should be one plan for that, and then another for the game running to extra time? And then maybe a third train plan for the game going to penalties? I'd love to know how you think that could be achieved and how exactly you would plan a timetable on that basis.

Sorry but that's a cop-out. Plan for penalties, if it doesn't get there then people will be waiting but at least they'll be able to get home.

Part of me thinks that due to the staffing shortages they have that it was deliberately planned around that if it goes past 90 minutes people wont be able to catch their trains or claim for refunds seeing as it wouldn't be Chilterns fault they chose to stay at the football.

 

[43066]

Is the railway there to meet the needs of its customers/the country, or not?

Well the cutbacks the government has insisted on, and the industrial dispute the government is blocking a resolution to are both preventing the railway from looking after its customers at the moment - yet you don’t seem to mind that….

Some customers it could do without - the ones who commit vandalism, assault, and dish out racist and homophobic abuse to staff and other passengers, for example.

It’s strange how they always seem to be travelling at the same time as the football fans…

The railways should be able to flex with anticipated demand.

Due to above mentioned cuts the railway can’t cope with existing demand, let alone massively increased numbers due to football fans all travelling at once (who also have a tendency to cause trains to be taken out of service etc.)

In all seriousness - why can’t the football industry manage the times and locations of the games better?

 

[The Planner]

Sorry but that's a cop-out. Plan for penalties, if it doesn't get there then people will be waiting but at least they'll be able to get home.

Part of me thinks that due to the staffing shortages they have that it was deliberately planned around that if it goes past 90 minutes people wont be able to catch their trains or claim for refunds seeing as it wouldn't be Chilterns fault they chose to stay at the football.

Where do you heard all the people in the mean time? Is it possible to do that safely?

 

[12LDA28C]

Sorry but that's a cop-out. Plan for penalties, if it doesn't get there then people will be waiting but at least they'll be able to get home.

Part of me thinks that due to the staffing shortages they have that it was deliberately planned around that if it goes past 90 minutes people wont be able to catch their trains or claim for refunds seeing as it wouldn't be Chilterns fault they chose to stay at the football.

So plan for penalties so the extra capacity is provided for that situation, then the game ends after 90 minutes. Then you'll have thousands of football fans arriving at the station an hour before the extra capacity has been provided leading to even more serious overcrowding at the station and on trains. I'm afraid you have no appreciation of how timetables are planned and how they simply can't be changed at the drop of a hat, or indeed the kick of a ball.

Where do you heard all the people in the mean time? Is it possible to do that safely?

Exactly. And 'no' is the most likely answer.

 

[PsychoMouse]

So you'd rather sell them tickets and then abandon them 100+ miles from home than actually be able to provide them with what they're paying for?

I know cuts and whatnot are terrible but this kind of attitude is why millions of people just don't bother with trains anymore.

 

[AF91]

Trains cannot be planned purely to extra time and penalties timings. A significant wait for trains like that would both put the station staff at significant risk of harm from anti social behaviour and the waiting crowds would hinder the movement of other fans away from the stadium.



For those saying that the railways are just not bothering being flexibe. Chiltern have two paths each hour between Marylebone and Moor Street. The maximum length of trains that can serve Wembley is 7 cars under normal practice. The maximum allowable capacity for a 7 car 168 is just over 800 people so even if all that capacity was somehow reserved for football supporters then you'd be looking at over six hours worth of trains to clear the sort of numbers that were trying to travel on Saturday. In reality this would be far longer given the fact the non football traffic travelling too. Ultimately the railway can only do what it can but will always have an upper limit of what can be achieved.

 

[12LDA28C]

To be fair actually, if they had planned based on it going to extra time, and it had ended within 90 minutes, would that have been so much of a problem as fans would have just had to wait for 30 mins instead of hours?

But they wouldn't have waited would they? They'd have wanted to get on the platform ASAP and catch an earlier train and if they weren't allowed on the platform huge crowds would have built up with the attendant issues that causes.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Yet railway passenger numbers increase year on year. That rant also doesn’t actually answer the question I asked.

If the football authorities/whoever can’t agree to show games at a sensible time to enable people to get home, why is that the railway’s issue? It sounds more like the football industry doesn’t care about its own fans!

I agree on games being arranged for more convenient times for travelling fans (and hence the railways) but fans couldn't get home to Coventry after a match finished mid evening in London.

You seem to be fairly typical of the problem. A railway insider who blames everything on someone else and has customer service low down the list of priorities.

It’s strange how they always seem to be travelling at the same time as the football fans…

Do you display prejudice to football fans when working?

 

[Bartsimho]

As a thing extending the platforms at Wembley Central could be a solution to help it. (Although that would never happen).

Attach a Special route to a normal pathed train and have it split where there is more path capacity if possible (which is available the further from London you are).

The finish time is fairly typical as well. The matches started mid-afternoon which is standard start time and finished at a good time (not ridiculously late even with ET and Pens).

All Playoff games at Wembley this year have been effected and while the National League was on a Strike Day (understandable) it should always be anticipated that some regions will have teams likely to be in the playoffs.

EMR started engineering works this weekend between Derby and Ambergate when they should have known with the places they cater for a playoff was likely so should have pushed it to start today on the Tuesday. Derby County, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield United and Barbsley you could have said before the fixtures came out last year would be around the playoffs so delaying starting the works for 3 days would have been possible.

 

[Krokodil]

What happened to 1R60 and 1Z60?

 

[12LDA28C]

The matches started mid-afternoon which is standard start time and finished at a good time (not ridiculously late even with ET and Pens).

1645 is really not 'mid-afternoon'. 1500 is though, as others have suggested maybe the game should have started then.

 

[chiltern trev]

Trains cannot be planned purely to extra time and penalties timings. A significant wait for trains like that would both put the station staff at significant risk of harm from anti social behaviour and the waiting crowds would hinder the movement of other fans away from the stadium.



For those saying that the railways are just not bothering being flexibe. Chiltern have two paths each hour between Marylebone and Moor Street. The maximum length of trains that can serve Wembley is 7 cars under normal practice. The maximum allowable capacity for a 7 car 168 is just over 800 people so even if all that capacity was somehow reserved for football supporters then you'd be looking at over six hours worth of trains to clear the sort of numbers that were trying to travel on Saturday. In reality this would be far longer given the fact the non football traffic travelling too. Ultimately the railway can only do what it can but will always have an upper limit of what can be achieved.

Wembley Stadium is 8 car. There was a programme of works several years ago to ensure all principal (i.e. the busier) stations were 8 cars.

Used to commute on Chiltern and they do have plans. On football match days, they change the train engineering plan to maximise the number of units available.

We went High Wycombe to Birmingham one year for a FA Cup match Wycombe vs Liverpool at Villa Park on a Sunday. At least 4500 seats were provided northbound before the match utilising 7 car trains (class 165s) and I think the normal service was also beefed up to 8 cars. There was engineering work planned for the Sunday morning which meant line closed but there discussions held to end the engineering about 1-2 hours early.

Also there have been previous occasions when Birmingham FC and Villa were playing at Wembley and again 4500-5500 extra seats provided by 7 or 8 car trains and I think they managed to squeeze in a 3rd path each hour.

But due to the distance between West Midlands and Wembley, this limits the ability of units to do more than one trip before a match and the same on the return.

Chiltern also strongly advise buy your ticket in advance to save queuing on the day. It also has the big benefit of Chiltern knowing how many fans will want to travel.

This match and train travel got hit very badly by the late kick off and thus the short post match travel window. If you brought 4500-5500 down prematch you can only just get all of them back. There is little or no slack afterwards.

Note an much later kickoff, say 19.00 does not cause a problem as effectively you cannot get back to West Midlands after a match as there is probably only 1 or 2 scheduled services post 2100 from Marylebone and it will be obvious to fans not to try and return after the match.

This is the first time I have seen a DO NOT TRAVEL for a match to Wembley.

 

[12LDA28C]

Wembley Stadium is 8 car. There was a programme of works several years ago to ensure all principal (i.e. the busier) stations were 8 cars.

You can't have an 8-car at Wembley if it's DOO though, you'd need a guard on the train. Maximum of 7-car DOO when using mirrors for dispatch.

This match and train travel got hit very badly by the late kick off and thus the short post match travel window. If you brought 4500-5500 down prematch you can only just get all of them back. There is little or no slack afterwards.

8,000 fans travelled from Wembley Stadium station after the match according to passenger counts.

 

[Energy]

You can't have an 8-car at Wembley if it's DOO though, you'd need a guard on the train. Maximum of 7-car DOO when using mirrors for dispatch.

/1s have been fitted with at least the mounts for DOO cameras (and I believe the cameras themselves?) so that could change. LNWR has guards anyway.