DOO on Northern and general discussion on future staffing arrangements

[northwichcat]

To be honest Im a little saddened by this thread, 20 pages of discussion on this consultation paper and around 19 of them exclusively on the DOO side. The rest of the content is barely getting a mention.

One thing I'm surprised the train crews have overlooked is the consultation is asking which lines need more services on a Sunday. That will likely have more of an immediate impact.

 

[Moonshot]

One thing I'm surprised the train crews have overlooked is the consultation is asking which lines need more services on a Sunday. That will likely have more of an immediate impact.

Yes it would , because as things stand, Sundays are voluntary and paid as overtime for guards ( Northern ), who are contracted to work 35 hours which is actually worked over 4 days as opposed to 5.

If Sundays were ramped up in general ( increasingly the network is becoming a 7 day railway ) then that would be a major consideration.

 

[northwichcat]

I ve no problem if passengers want a guard on a train - the research from Passenger Focus ( who are increasingly getting a seat at the bigger table ) indicates this. Bear in mind that 75% of the total income of the industry is provided by the fare box. However passengers will need to understand that increases in fare prices which are broadly in line with inflation may not cover all their aspirations if they are not prepared to pay for it.

One thing passengers may struggle to understand is on Stagecoach Supertram there's a visible staff member present who Stagecoach Supertram refer to as the conductor. Local and regional TOCs also refer to a conductor (not a guard) being the visible staff member. If you talk about removing the conductor on local train services they might automatically assume they'll be more like Metrolink services than Supertram services.

Passengers may feel safer on DOO services if there is a visible staff member in the saloon who doesn't keep returning to the rear cab.

 

[John S2]

Yes it would , because as things stand, Sundays are voluntary and paid as overtime for guards ( Northern ), who are contracted to work 35 hours which is actually worked over 4 days as opposed to 5.

If Sundays were ramped up in general ( increasingly the network is becoming a 7 day railway ) then that would be a major consideration.

Two observations:
1) I don't think a service should depend on overtime to operate - Sundays should be part of the contracted hours
2) I had a quick skim read of the DfT document. I found no mention of Boxing Day services. I would like to see the DfT instruct bidders to put forward proposals for Boxing Day services on the majority of routes.

 

[Moonshot]

Two observations:
1) I don't think a service should depend on overtime to operate - Sundays should be part of the contracted hours
2) I had a quick skim read of the DfT document. I found no mention of Boxing Day services. I would like to see the DfT instruct bidders to put forward proposals for Boxing Day services on the majority of routes.

Speaking objectively, I wouldnt disagree......and in fact I myself am working tomorrow on a job which may well have resulted in 6 services cancelled if I hadnt volunteered. The extra money is very welcome though !!

 

[LBSCR Times]

Two observations:
1) I don't think a service should depend on overtime to operate - Sundays should be part of the contracted hours

I've said this before too, but its Senior Management that keep resisting it, as it would mean more staff and increased costs.

 

[Merseysider]

I witnessed the other day, a 333 at Shipley arrive and depart with no guard at the back of the train nor staff on the platform to assist the driver with despatch. What with Platform 2 being curved, I can hardly imagine this was entirely safe.

Nobody is forcing anyone to be a bus driver.....if they dont like their T&Cs the solution is simple.......work elsewhere.

Ah, of course. One simply quits their job and finds a new one within the hour.

 

[northwichcat]

The Majority of the DOO was done in the late 80s and early 90s when BR was in dire straights. If DOO was so successful why hasn't it been expanded rapidly in 20 years?

With the railways in general a lot of things have remained the same just because no-one's ever reviewed it. For instance, the Stockport-Stalybridge parliamentary - either a proper service is needed on the Denton line or that service should be withdrawn.

 

[Moonshot]

I've said this before too, but its Senior Management that keep resisting it, as it would mean more staff and increased costs.

In your opinion would the increase in staff numbers and cost be outweighed by the extra revenue IF passengers were able to rely on Sunday services like they are the rest of the week? Never ceases to amaze me just how busy I am when I work Sundays.....though thats probably down to a majority of ticket offices being closed.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Our beloved government will do anything to destroy unions. They don't care about the likes of working people and that's why its pretty much guaranteed they will be history at the next election. Lets face it they only got in because of the worldwide recession that so many people suffered from and even then for a Majority they had to form a coalition with Lib Dems. Look at East Coast to keep to their Ideology they are doing their utmost to re privatise the TOC even though it actually has been a roaring success since going back into public hands.

All I'd say is start your own union but make it political party free, this way its a level playing field if its a load of guards working together for the protection of their rights.

The unions nowerdays don't have much power since Thatcher removed the power from them, and by keeping it political party free you won't get the wrangling that the current unions have with that racist party that hates its own people... and I'm talking about Labour.

 

[LBSCR Times]

I think Aslef have more power than the other two rail unions, especially with some of the agreements they have secured.
However, even they are not consistent, agreeing to DOO in certain circumstances on some TOC's, and 12 car DOO with other TOC's.

 

[northwichcat]

Never ceases to amaze me just how busy I am when I work Sundays.....though thats probably down to a majority of ticket offices being closed.

The opening hours of ticket offices which are open part of the day don't seem to relate to the departure times. For instance, at Knutsford the ticket office opens at 12:10 but the departure times on Sunday at 11:47 (Southport), 12:01 (Chester) and then 13:47 (Southport) and 14:01 (Chester.) Why open at 12:10?

 

[Greenback]

It's probably historical, base don services that ran years ago. No doubt it's easier to change the timetable than to amend the opening hours.

 

[northwichcat]

It's probably historical, base don services that ran years ago. No doubt it's easier to change the timetable than to amend the opening hours.

It is historical from when the service was 3 hourly on a Sunday. However, down the road at Northwich Northern have revised the weekday ticket office hours to open and close an hour earlier to better suit current demand without requiring additional staff.

 

[Helvellyn]

That's why the Guard is safety Critical we are the BACKUP that is already on the SCENE. Not only are we versed in emergency procedures we also have a little thing called ROUTE KNOWLEDGE. could the average minimum wage minimum training if they are travelling on the up or down fast (or the up slow) could he tell how far the next junction is? In the middle of nowhere does he/she even have a clue where the nearest crossing is or where to send emergency services?

I'll disagree on the route knowledge. It might be different at your TOC, but we're never reassessed on it after it has been learnt. On assessments you have to demonstrate your knowledge of stations, and as we stop at them all the time this knowledge is kept fresh and current. But I know a lot of my colleagues couldn't say what the name of certain level crossings are any more, pick out certain lineside features that help you know where you are, etc. Heck, some of the country end Guards (Weymouth, Bournemouth, Salisbury) would possibly have heart failure if they were suddenly told by control they were stopping all stations Woking to Waterloo, as they sign the route but on a daily basis they travel across it on the fast lines (so only stop Woking, Clapham and Waterloo).

 

[455driver]

Heck, some of the country end Guards (Weymouth, Bournemouth, Salisbury) would possibly have heart failure if they were suddenly told by control they were stopping all stations Woking to Waterloo, as they sign the route but on a daily basis they travel across it on the fast lines (so only stop Woking, Clapham and Waterloo).

That happened a few years ago when, due to over running engineering work between Woking and Hampton Court jn, the decision was taken to open the up slow line to diesel traction only. The result was all the Salisbury and Exeter trains suddenly became stoppers ferromagnetic Woking calling at such unknown (to the trauncrew) stations as West Byfleet, Weybridge etc.
I did check and they were taking a lot longer than us suburban jockeys!

 

[Anvil1984]

I'll disagree on the route knowledge. It might be different at your TOC, but we're never reassessed on it after it has been learnt. On assessments you have to demonstrate your knowledge of stations, and as we stop at them all the time this knowledge is kept fresh and current. But I know a lot of my colleagues couldn't say what the name of certain level crossings are any more, pick out certain lineside features that help you know where you are, etc. Heck, some of the country end Guards (Weymouth, Bournemouth, Salisbury) would possibly have heart failure if they were suddenly told by control they were stopping all stations Woking to Waterloo, as they sign the route but on a daily basis they travel across it on the fast lines (so only stop Woking, Clapham and Waterloo).

Route Knowledge questions have been included in Northern conductors Rule assessments for the last couple of years and we are asked about features on rideouts

 

[wigwamman]

What would it cost to convert the entire Northern Rail network to DOO ?

Could it be done with existing traction, 15x class in particular.

What improvement would need to be made to the stations.

Would any new scheme require CCTV or would platform end mirrors be allowed.

How much would Aslef want to sell out ?

Will a 10 year franchise encourage any required investment ?

Or will the Government pay for the infrastutructure upgrades to allow future subsidy to be reduced ?

 

[Manchester77]

What would it cost to convert the entire Northern Rail network to DOO ?

Could it be done with existing traction, 15x class in particular.

What improvement would need to be made to the stations.

Would any new scheme require CCTV or would platform end mirrors be allowed.

How much would Aslef want to sell out ?

Will a 10 year franchise encourage any required investment ?

Or will the Government pay for the infrastutructure upgrades to allow future subsidy to be reduced ?

I think the DfT were only talking about northern electric services anyway.
A lot I'd imagine since every station would need DOO equipment.
I think you'd need door controls in the cab at the very least.
Probably TVMs since the guard would no longer be able to sell tickets.
Depends on s straight platforms just mirrors might be allowed.
I don't know what you mean by that however the unions would not want the electric routes to go DOO let alone the whole network.
Depends on if the bidder agrees to DOO on some electric services.
The. DfT defiantly want a subsidy reduction and so I'd imagine a way of doing so is to reduce costs by getting rid of guards on some routes.

 

[Moonshot]

I'll disagree on the route knowledge. It might be different at your TOC, but we're never reassessed on it after it has been learnt. On assessments you have to demonstrate your knowledge of stations, and as we stop at them all the time this knowledge is kept fresh and current. But I know a lot of my colleagues couldn't say what the name of certain level crossings are any more, pick out certain lineside features that help you know where you are, etc. Heck, some of the country end Guards (Weymouth, Bournemouth, Salisbury) would possibly have heart failure if they were suddenly told by control they were stopping all stations Woking to Waterloo, as they sign the route but on a daily basis they travel across it on the fast lines (so only stop Woking, Clapham and Waterloo).

I really dont know why route knowledge is empasised by my colleague......we go through the whole route learning bridges viaducts crossings etc. Yet on our Blackberries we have a maps function anyway. From a safety perspective, its overated, and the time would be better spent on customer service skills.

 

[Carlisle]

Yes it would , because as things stand, Sundays are voluntary and paid as overtime for guards ( Northern ), who are contracted to work 35 hours which is actually worked over 4 days as opposed to 5.

If Sundays were ramped up in general ( increasingly the network is becoming a 7 day railway ) then that would be a major consideration.

Most UK based firms full time employees work around 37-39 hours a week minimum and often 5 days out of 7,is this difference down to rail unions fighting much harder than other firms unions are prepared to go for their members interests or are TOCs universally able to offer superior pay and conditions compared to what appears to be the market rate ?

 

[northwichcat]

Most UK based firms full time employees work around 37-39 hours a week minimum and often 5 days out of 7,is this difference down to rail unions fighting much harder than other firms unions are prepared to go for their members interests or are TOCs universally able to offer superior pay and conditions compared to what appears to be the market rate ?

Over time what used to be a 9-5 working day with 60 minutes for lunch, has for most people become a 9-5 working day with 30 minutes for lunch or become a day which starts at 8:30 or finishes at 5:30. This then changed what was a 35 hour working week to a 37.5 hour working week. Employees with union representation probably objected to the 7% increase in working hours.

NHS employees typically work 4 days a week with longer hours on the days they work as well so 4 day weeks aren't exclusive to train crews.

 

[Carlisle]

That's interesting ,I didn't know most NHS staff worked a 4 day week , in the early 90s my old BR senior railmans job got an official 20 minute lunch break built into our 8 hour shift , still at least we got paid for it

 

[Tomnick]

I really dont know why route knowledge is empasised by my colleague......we go through the whole route learning bridges viaducts crossings etc. Yet on our Blackberries we have a maps function anyway. From a safety perspective, its overated, and the time would be better spent on customer service skills.

In an emergency situation where the Driver is 'unavailable', I'd much rather deal with a Guard who knows exactly where they're speaking from, what the other lines are called and can identify which need to be blocked, knows what method of signalling they're working under and so on, without having to fiddle about on a mobile phone that might have no internet access in that location!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I really dont know why route knowledge is empasised by my colleague......we go through the whole route learning bridges viaducts crossings etc. Yet on our Blackberries we have a maps function anyway. From a safety perspective, its overated, and the time would be better spent on customer service skills.

Are you serious? what a ridiculous statement!

 

[muz379]

Route knowledge is something asked about on assessments ,if you dont work over a route you sign for 6 months then it drops off your route card and you have to "learn" it again

unless you are at a mile post it would be near impossible to pinpoint your location to the exact mile and chain , however knowing major features like tunnels ,viaducts and crossings on the route would help to identify where you are in an emergency and knowing about tunnels viaducts and cuttings is important if you need to stop the train because of an onboard fire .

banking on a mobile phone being able to obtain signal and then fiddling with the map features which is just Google maps so doesn't have any features on the signaler would be expecting you to use to identify your location is a waste of time in an emergency situation

Moonshot I think you are also forgetting that some of the things you learn when you learn routes is to assist you in providing that customer service such as stations with disabled access,staff assistance and booking offices , stations with large gaps or steps down onto the platform so you can warn customers . Going out route learning you also learn the stopping frequency as well as the connections on the route the pte area boundaries . The likely places and causes for delay .The likely places for fare evasion or trouble .

Its a lot more than just parroting off a list of stations junctions and crossings .


I really dont think that going DOO is actually going to reduce operating costs of the franchise and if it does its not going to be any significant amount .

ASLEF even if they agree to DOO wont do so without an increase in drivers salary probably quite a significant one as well , and comprehensive training being given to drivers on managing the risks at the PTI which is going to be another costly/logistically difficult task given the number of drivers who still are short on route learning because they cannot be released .

The prospectus says that on board staff presence is still important , if defeated on introducing DOO the RMT are still going to want the people carrying out the role of the second member of staff to have as many responsibilities as possible .When you think about some of the more difficult customer service issues guards sometimes get faced with they will still want a decent wage for handling those unless you want a load of G4s security guards working on your trains which would lead to northern having to compensate a hell of a lot more customers for poor customer service .

Implementing DOO is also going to mean a lot more stations are going to need dispatchers . Your dispatchers might also argue that they should have more money because their role on the outside of a DOO train becomes even more important not to mention the costs that are going to go into retraining dispatchers to the new method of working

I honestly think that once all of these are taken into consideration the cost benefit of DOO is going to be negligible , what you are shaving from the guards salary(which might not be that much once the actual responsibilities of the new role are decided ) you are just giving to dispatchers and drivers or loosing in revenue because trains will run without revenue staff on board

None of this is taking into account either the infrastructure costs which network rail or the DFT are yet to unveil the funding for and no franchise operator is going to be able to see a return on investing in,the costs of industrial action that will no doubt occur in the run up to its implementation , and the costs of making redundancies.

 

[the sniper]

I really dont know why route knowledge is empasised by my colleague......we go through the whole route learning bridges viaducts crossings etc. Yet on our Blackberries we have a maps function anyway. From a safety perspective, its overated, and the time would be better spent on customer service skills.

I find your attitude towards the job a bit disconcerting, tbh. I don't think your manager would be impressed to hear of your complacency, if you are a Guard.

 

[Llama]

+1.

The guard is in theory the last line of defence able to arrange protection of the line and give accurate information for the most expeditious emergency services attendance in the case of a serious incident rendering a driver 'unavailable'.

 

[HSTEd]

Well the argument would be that if we didn't have to pay guards we could have more drivers for the same amount of money.

The whole "wrong side release" problem that is apparently caused by not having a guard could be mitigated using the new technologies becoming available.

For instance a Eurobalise could be positioned at the start of a platform (or logical part platform in case of places like Doncaster) reporting the length to the start of the platform and the length to the end of the platform, as well as what side it is.

You could then programme the train to use its onboard odometers to determine whether or not the doors of the train are actually platformed on a valid platform - if not the system will ask the driver to confirm that he does in fact want to release the doors.
(Preventing the system preventing the doors from opening in an emergency).
Although most balises could be inexpensive passive ones some would have to be linked to the signalling system so that trains in Doncaster style platforms do not release doors on the crossover in case of an overshoot.

This would also prevent doors opening on stop shorts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

+1.

The guard is in theory the last line of defence able to arrange protection of the line and give accurate information for the most expeditious emergency services attendance in the case of a serious incident rendering a driver 'unavailable'.

But in the days when it will soon be possible to track every train throughout the entire system using things like GSM-R and maintain contact with the driver or other train crew at all times, does the Guard really have any significant role to play in 'protecting the line'?
If contact is lost with a train (in a way not indicative of a shut-down) and the driver cannot be contacted any close train on the opposite line could be asked to approach 'able to stop short of obstructions' to guard against an accident blocking lines.
They could also contact someone from the emergency services to go and look (if they are closer than railway personnel) as the control centre will know the last 'good' location of the train to the inch.
Computers give us eyes in every cab, assuming video could be streamed (in relatively low resolution to save bandwidth) from cabs to the control centre and buffered the 'last moments' of a 'lost train' could be played back to gain clues as to what has happened.

 

[the sniper]

Well the argument would be that if we didn't have to pay guards we could have more drivers for the same amount of money.

That argument would be foolish. Anyone who thinks ASLEF wouldn't get more than their moneys worth in pay increase out of agreeing to go DOO in any area currently operating with Guards are completely naive. That's if they agree to it on a local level, which isn't a foregone conclusion.

Computers give us eyes in every cab, assuming video could be streamed (in relatively low resolution to save bandwidth) from cabs to the control centre and buffered the 'last moments' of a 'lost train' could be played back to gain clues as to what has happened.

As usual HSTEd, you love your fantastical technical solutions to every conceivable problem on the railway, but you ignore realities. Try getting in cab cameras past ASLEF. And please, I know already, it's done in other industries, blah, blah, blah... We've been here before I feel, but that doesn't change that what is theoretically possible might not be as easily achievable in the real world.