DOO on Northern and general discussion on future staffing arrangements

[HSTEd]

That argument would be foolish. Anyone who thinks ASLEF wouldn't get more than their moneys worth in pay increase out of agreeing to go DOO in any area currently operating with Guards are completely naive. That's if they agree to it on a local level, which isn't a foregone conclusion.

As usual HSTEd, you love your fantastical technical solutions to every conceivable problem on the railway, but you ignore realities. Try getting in cab cameras past ASLEF. And please, I know already, it's done in other industries, blah, blah, blah... We've been here before I feel, but that doesn't change that what is theoretically possible might not be as easily achievable in the real world.

Its nice to know that the biggest problem with such things is the Union and not the technical issues.....
One of the problems caused by the balkanisation of the railway is that noone will dare pick a fight with the Union any more over working practices.

Hence why DOO rollout has essentially stopped since privatisation.

 

[Moonshot]

Route knowledge is something asked about on assessments ,if you dont work over a route you sign for 6 months then it drops off your route card and you have to "learn" it again

unless you are at a mile post it would be near impossible to pinpoint your location to the exact mile and chain , however knowing major features like tunnels ,viaducts and crossings on the route would help to identify where you are in an emergency and knowing about tunnels viaducts and cuttings is important if you need to stop the train because of an onboard fire .

banking on a mobile phone being able to obtain signal and then fiddling with the map features which is just Google maps so doesn't have any features on the signaler would be expecting you to use to identify your location is a waste of time in an emergency situation

Moonshot I think you are also forgetting that some of the things you learn when you learn routes is to assist you in providing that customer service such as stations with disabled access,staff assistance and booking offices , stations with large gaps or steps down onto the platform so you can warn customers . Going out route learning you also learn the stopping frequency as well as the connections on the route the pte area boundaries . The likely places and causes for delay .The likely places for fare evasion or trouble .

Its a lot more than just parroting off a list of stations junctions and crossings .


I really dont think that going DOO is actually going to reduce operating costs of the franchise and if it does its not going to be any significant amount .

ASLEF even if they agree to DOO wont do so without an increase in drivers salary probably quite a significant one as well , and comprehensive training being given to drivers on managing the risks at the PTI which is going to be another costly/logistically difficult task given the number of drivers who still are short on route learning because they cannot be released .

The prospectus says that on board staff presence is still important , if defeated on introducing DOO the RMT are still going to want the people carrying out the role of the second member of staff to have as many responsibilities as possible .When you think about some of the more difficult customer service issues guards sometimes get faced with they will still want a decent wage for handling those unless you want a load of G4s security guards working on your trains which would lead to northern having to compensate a hell of a lot more customers for poor customer service .

Implementing DOO is also going to mean a lot more stations are going to need dispatchers . Your dispatchers might also argue that they should have more money because their role on the outside of a DOO train becomes even more important not to mention the costs that are going to go into retraining dispatchers to the new method of working

I honestly think that once all of these are taken into consideration the cost benefit of DOO is going to be negligible , what you are shaving from the guards salary(which might not be that much once the actual responsibilities of the new role are decided ) you are just giving to dispatchers and drivers or loosing in revenue because trains will run without revenue staff on board

None of this is taking into account either the infrastructure costs which network rail or the DFT are yet to unveil the funding for and no franchise operator is going to be able to see a return on investing in,the costs of industrial action that will no doubt occur in the run up to its implementation , and the costs of making redundancies.

The bit I highlighted in bold I would agree with - which is why I posted the fact that route learning ought to place more emphasis on that.

It is somewhat ironic that more than a few have emphasised the need to know where you are when an incident occurs which requires emergency action - yet in an incident at Smithy Bridge when a 144 was evacuated after catching fire, the voice transcripts show that the conductor twice gave incorrect locations as to where he was evacuating the passengers to. Also , it was actuallly the signaller who gave exact location details to the emergency services, not the train crew.

I actually wouldnt blame the crew at all for this......in an emergency situation which is exceptionally rare , the stress levels go up - its an entirely natural human reaction and impairs the ability to think clearly and rationally.

 

[ac6000cw]

Its nice to know that the biggest problem with such things is the Union and not the technical issues.....
One of the problems caused by the balkanisation of the railway is that noone will dare pick a fight with the Union any more over working practices.

Hence why DOO rollout has essentially stopped since privatisation.

I have to agree with that...

DOO for passenger trains (in the right circumstances, with the extra safeguards like train-to-signalbox secure radio and continuous track circuiting which AFAIK are required for implementation) is proven safe practice over the last 30 years or so in the UK. Operating 12-car trains at 100 mph using DOO is normal in my part of the UK - where is the problem in extending it to other lines that can satisfy the operational requirements ?

Having someone on the train to sell tickets/check fares/make passengers feel more secure is a separate, commercial, issue for a TOC.

 

[Carlisle]

That argument would be foolish. Anyone who thinks ASLEF wouldn't get more than their moneys worth in pay increase out of agreeing to go DOO in any area currently operating with Guards are completely naive. That's if they agree to it on a local level, which isn't a foregone

So precisely what has the rail industry as a whole gained by giving drivers on non DOO lines very considerable pay increases since privatisation other than single manning over 110 mph on former inter city routes

 

[Moonshot]

So precisely what has the rail industry as a whole gained by giving drivers on non DOO lines very considerable pay increases since privatisation other than single manning over 110 mph on former inter city routes

Pay awards which are determined in the private sector - not the public. You have to wonder if rail staff would have been so financially fortunate in the public sector given the amount of pay freezes imposed on Public Sector Employees.

 

[A-driver]

So precisely what has the rail industry as a whole gained by giving drivers on non DOO lines very considerable pay increases since privatisation other than single manning over 110 mph on former inter city routes

Huge increases in productivity, reduction in extra pay (weekends, unsociable shifts, mileage etc), more flexibility in rostering and working practices, smaller payments for overtime, increased 'compulsory unpaid' overtime, reduction in terms and conditions for a start.

The pay increases certainly are not for nothing and generally the TOC gets more out if it than the driver. Our last pay rise was about 4% but it worked out that most drivers would earn £600 less a year out of it when the changes to T&Cs mainly involving Sunday working are taken into consideration. Hardly a huge 'inflation busting pay rise' as the evening standard would call it really is it?!

Plus the main reason surrounding higher pay for drivers is the competition set up after BR. Suddenly companies could cheaply poach drivers from other TOCs rather than pay huge amounts to train them fully. As soon as one or two TOCs started persuading drivers to move to them by increasing pay others had no choice but to increase their own pay or end up being unable to retain drivers.

Don't believe the myths you read in Tory rags or forums like this one surrounding train drivers pay. The industry generally gains an awful lot from these 'considerable' pay rises you talk of.

 

[A-driver]

Pay awards which are determined in the private sector - not the public. You have to wonder if rail staff would have been so financially fortunate in the public sector given the amount of pay freezes imposed on Public Sector Employees.

No they wouldn't, the pay rises are largely down to privatisation and the competition it created.

 

[Mojo]

No they wouldn't, the pay rises are largely down to privatisation and the competition it created.

Pay awards which are determined in the private sector - not the public. You have to wonder if rail staff would have been so financially fortunate in the public sector given the amount of pay freezes imposed on Public Sector Employees.

London Underground is still a public sector railway organisation whose employees have been awarded with an above-inflation pay rise. I don't think the distinction between public and private has much to do with it.

 

[A-driver]

London Underground is still a public sector railway organisation whose employees have been awarded with an above-inflation pay rise. I don't think the distinction between public and private has much to do with it.

The phrase "above inflation" is meaningless. As I say above, pay awards come from negotiations in which the employer takes terms and conditions to lower their running costs by offering them more flexibility. It is a 2 way street. The union dosnt just slap a figure on the table and refuse to budge until the employer agrees. Believing that the employer makes no gains out of pay talks is incredibly ignorant and shows a complete lack of understanding led by biased beliefs or media outlets.

 

[fowler9]

I was wondering if any drivers feel they aren't properly rewarded for their work when the TOC needs to pay one less member of staff in a safety critical role if a service goes to DOO? Genuine question, I'm not on the wind up.

 

[Mojo]

The phrase "above inflation" is meaningless. As I say above, pay awards come from negotiations in which the employer takes terms and conditions to lower their running costs by offering them more flexibility. It is a 2 way street. The union dosnt just slap a figure on the table and refuse to budge until the employer agrees. Believing that the employer makes no gains out of pay talks is incredibly ignorant and shows a complete lack of understanding led by biased beliefs or media outlets.

I think I have a bit of understanding over how these things work, but fear you may have missed what I said...

I'm just trying to point out what you and Moonshot said; in particular the statement ''You have to wonder if rail staff would have been so financially fortunate in the public sector given the amount of pay freezes imposed on Public Sector Employees'' because London Underground pays its station staff and operational managers the highest out of all Tocs/Network Rail, and its Train Operators at a fairly reasonable rate too, despite there being no competition because they are the only employer of LU passenger Train Operators, and despite them being public sector.

FWIW, the now-concluded 4 year pay deal contained no productivity gains or changes in Ts&Cs for the operator. It's a reflection of the different nature of the work, the strength of the unions, and the political/business pressure to avoid a strike at whatever the cost.

 

[Carlisle]

Huge increases in productivity, reduction in extra pay (weekends, unsociable shifts, mileage etc), more flexibility in rostering and working practices, smaller payments for overtime, increased 'compulsory unpaid' overtime, reduction in terms and conditions for a start.

The pay increases certainly are not for nothing and generally the TOC gets more out if it than the driver. Our last pay rise was about 4% but it worked out that most drivers would earn £600 less a year out of it when the changes to T&Cs mainly involving Sunday working are taken into consideration. Hardly a huge 'inflation busting pay rise' as the evening standard would call it really is it?!

Plus the main reason surrounding higher pay for drivers is the competition set up after BR. Suddenly companies could cheaply poach drivers from other TOCs rather than pay huge amounts to train them fully. As soon as one or two TOCs started persuading drivers to move to them by increasing pay others had no choice but to increase their own pay or end up being unable to retain drivers.

Don't believe the myths you read in Tory rags or forums like this one surrounding train drivers pay. The industry generally gains an awful lot from these 'considerable' pay rises you talk of.

Ok cheers , so there have been lots of different changes over the years since privatisation then ,maybe the high salaries of underground staff are more to do with the high costs of living in or commuting to london for all sorts of shifts rather than being public or private industries

 

[notadriver]

Huge increases in productivity, reduction in extra pay (weekends, unsociable shifts, mileage etc), more flexibility in rostering and working practices, smaller payments for overtime, increased 'compulsory unpaid' overtime, reduction in terms and conditions for a start.

The pay increases certainly are not for nothing and generally the TOC gets more out if it than the driver. Our last pay rise was about 4% but it worked out that most drivers would earn £600 less a year out of it when the changes to T&Cs mainly involving Sunday working are taken into consideration. Hardly a huge 'inflation busting pay rise' as the evening standard would call it really is it?!

Plus the main reason surrounding higher pay for drivers is the competition set up after BR. Suddenly companies could cheaply poach drivers from other TOCs rather than pay huge amounts to train them fully. As soon as one or two TOCs started persuading drivers to move to them by increasing pay others had no choice but to increase their own pay or end up being unable to retain drivers.

Don't believe the myths you read in Tory rags or forums like this one surrounding train drivers pay. The industry generally gains an awful lot from these 'considerable' pay rises you talk of.

At the same time the same competition drove down the pay and conditions of bus drivers and although things are starting to get better now the pay and conditions something left to be desired in many companies.

 

[GadgetMan]

I was wondering if any drivers feel they aren't properly rewarded for their work when the TOC needs to pay one less member of staff in a safety critical role if a service goes to DOO? Genuine question, I'm not on the wind up.

For me it's not a case of wanting more money to go DOO. I personally do not want the additional responsibility of Door operation at stations and baby sitting passengers/resetting pass comms etc which at the moment can be done whilst train is in motion by the Guard whereas with DOO you'd have to stop the train and walk to the affected carriage which may be the back of a 12 car.

Anyone who doesn't feel giving the Driver responsibility for Door operation is a big deal should go to their nearest commuter station. Stand at the front or rear of a busy 12 car train arriving with a couple of hundred people getting off and see how difficult it is to ascertain the train being clear and safe to depart from that distance away. Even more so on a curved platform. Monitors etc will never give the same quality of view that a Guard gets standing on a platform being able to move around for a better view.

 

[the sniper]

For me it's not a case of wanting more money to go DOO. I personally do not want the additional responsibility of Door operation at stations and baby sitting passengers/resetting pass comms etc which at the moment can be done whilst train is in motion by the Guard whereas with DOO you'd have to stop the train and walk to the affected carriage which may be the back of a 12 car.

These are issues that don't cross the minds of DOO supporters. I know a lot of drivers who wouldn't want to do the doors or work the train alone no matter what the TOC offered in remuneration. People ignore that a lot of drivers never signed up to the job with a view to having to deal with passengers, including people who came into driving from external industries having never worked with the public in their working lives. And now sadly in the minority, but guys who started in the 70s and early 80s as Secondmen with BR! We've got a lot of guys who went from Guards to Drivers purely to get away from dealing with passengers & passcoms and are much happier for it!

Some people here view Guards as entirely pointless, but these people have never worked a train full of a 100+ plus p***heads on a Friday/Saturday night, buggering about with the doors, risking their lives without even knowing it, fighting each other, setting off passcoms in the toilet, pulling the passcoms or egresses on the doors because they haven't opened said doors while they were released in the station. Then having to argue with said passengers that the doors can't be opened now because they stopped the train with it no longer being in the platform... I've had times where I've personally had to stand between the passengers and any passcoms just so we could get going. Not possible if you're the driver. As soon as you walk away they'd do the passcom again and you're back to square one.

Personally I can't see that I'd ever want to be the driver of a DOO train. Being in the middle of nowhere without anyone to back you up. It's bad enough having to deal with these people without having to concentrate on driving the train too!

 

[Fincra5]

Moonshot.. are you sure you're actually a guard? You sound like your average Joe passenger.

Yes DOO exists, but i've seen lots instances where there have been short stops, these can be very dangerous, often (as I saw at Selhurst) the driver didn't even notice. Someone could have fallen ETC... I've had short stops on my train, alas if we had door control I wouldn't have released the doors, did my driver notice? NO! I had to tell him (once the PA had finished - which is totally unsafe but thats another matter).

I see the benefit of DOO possibly on Metro routes, as it is down here BUT (a big but) the stations are very close with a high train frequency so evacuation points and emergency services or other staff aren't all that far away. DOO on rural and longer distance routes is unsafe in my opinion. We had recently a fatality at Hassocks... DOO train (FCC), who helped the driver with customers and safety bits, two PASSING Southern Conductors.

To bring it back, DOO does exist but then so does ATO, take the DLR, someone closes the doors, like a guard and the train drives itself... surely even this is possible on Metro routes - and so on.

Most of our drivers do not like DOO, they like having a conductor onboard to do the doors and deal with passengers, leaves them to worry about driving! The amount of delays caused by PASSCOMS are vast, a driver has to stop the train (at a safe point), shut down the cab, lock it all, walk back to the passcom, deal with whatever it is, turn off the passcom, walk back, set up the cab... a guard can deal with passcoms whilst the train is in motion.
Also. The camera view they get is pathetic, lighting is often dire and you can't see passengers. When the train takes power the cameras turn off, so who is to observe the platforms? No one. Same with Mirrors and Monitors.

 

[Manchester77]

Also. The camera view they get is pathetic, lighting is often dire and you can't see passengers. When the train takes power the cameras turn off, so who is to observe the platforms? No one. Same with Mirrors and Monitors.

That's really bad, on metrolink the side CCTV on the M5000s looks to be always going as when the tram is going down the track you can see into the cab and see the screens still going.

Some mirrors look very poor all stained I often wonder how drivers can see the side of the train!

 

[455driver]

That's really bad, on metrolink the side CCTV on the M5000s looks to be always going as when the tram is going down the track you can see into the cab and see the screens still going.

But are they on in the front cab?
Just because they stay on in the rear doesnt mean they stay on in the front.

Some mirrors look very poor all stained I often wonder how drivers can see the side of the train!

A lot of mirrors are useless.

 

[Mojo]

In my experience for passenger emergency alarms you really want station staff to go and deal with the problem rather than someone who is tied to the train, if you want to minimise delay. For instances like a person ill on a train you need to get them off the train, and obviously leaving them at an unstaffed station isn't what you'd do in such circumstances.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But are they on in the front cab?
Just because they stay on in the rear doesnt mean they stay on in the front.

It depends on the setup of the operation - I know on NR trains they switch off fairly soon but on lines with in-cab CCTV on the Underground you keep the pictures until the train has left the platform.

 

[Carlisle]

People ignore that a lot of drivers never signed up to the job with a view to having to deal with passengers, including people who came into driving from external industries having never worked with the public in their working lives. And now sadly in the minority, but guys who started in the 70s and early 80s as Secondmen with BR! We've got a lot of guys who went from Guards to Drivers purely to get away from dealing with passengers & passcoms and are much happier for it!

I'm a little surprised to hear that as most secondmen I worked with from 89-94 in the BR NSE sector certainly expected the expansion of DOO in some form once new stock had replaced the old slammers, however if your referring to the midlands or north (where no lines other than merseyrail had csr radio)then I can see what you mean

 

[Manchester77]

But are they on in the front cab?
Just because they stay on in the rear doesnt mean they stay on in the front.



A lot of mirrors are useless.

Yes I always try to sit behind the driver on the metrolink (get the drivers eye view!) and they always stay on as there's screens on both sides displaying the side view on each side. If the screens go off on national rail is this why you sometimes see drivers looking back out of their cab windows as the train departs?

Yes they look it I couldn't imagine it's easy to depart using a mirror only?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

On the electrostars there's a bit on the side that looks like what might be a camera mounting, is that for CCTV view for the driver when using DOO?

 

[Harpers Tate]

...which may be the back of a 12 car..

Hardly likely in Northern territory.

 

[GadgetMan]

Hardly likely in Northern territory.

Maybe so, but if DOO is allowed to spread then all TOCs will try and use that to justify them being able to implement it - replacing the Guard with a cheaper non-safety crit member of staff at best.

 

[Fincra5]

Yes I always try to sit behind the driver on the metrolink (get the drivers eye view!) and they always stay on as there's screens on both sides displaying the side view on each side. If the screens go off on national rail is this why you sometimes see drivers looking back out of their cab windows as the train departs?

Yes they look it I couldn't imagine it's easy to depart using a mirror only?

The Cameras are in place of the wing mirrors of the tram though, aren't they?

On the electrostars there's a bit on the side that looks like what might be a camera mounting, is that for CCTV view for the driver when using DOO?

Yes it is. 377s are not fit for use with the Mirrors or Monitors so have incab cameras.

 

[Manchester77]

The Cameras are in place of the wing mirrors of the tram though, aren't they?
.

Yes however the screens stay on on segregated former BR section too.

 

[muz379]

12 cars might not be a relevant issue in northern land but having two sets that are not compatible or having a long train and a short platform with no SDO would be relevant

I dont think that whoever wins this franchise is going to be able to produce credible plans for DOO until there is a lot more modern rolling stock available to the franchise .You would want stuff like SDO and longer trains or all sets with gangway connections

 

[the sniper]

In my experience for passenger emergency alarms you really want station staff to go and deal with the problem rather than someone who is tied to the train, if you want to minimise delay. For instances like a person ill on a train you need to get them off the train, and obviously leaving them at an unstaffed station isn't what you'd do in such circumstances.

That maybe the case on LU, but it is far from my experience. Honestly, touching wood while I say this, but of all the passcoms I've had activated & reset, NONE have been done by anything but accident, maliciously or for a reason short of what a reasonable/sober person would deem necessary. It's always just been a case of seeing what's gone on, resetting it and dissuading or preventing the person from doing it again.

Each Passcom activation has to be investigated as soon as possible though as it could be anything, from fire to (toilet!) flood, so waiting at least a few minutes till the next stop is far from ideal, ignoring that in most places on the national network the next stop will be considerably more than a few minutes away and is likely to be unmanned, either completely so or part time.

I'm a little surprised to hear that as most secondmen I worked with from 89-94 in the BR NSE sector certainly expected the expansion of DOO in some form once new stock had replaced the old slammers, however if your referring to the midlands or north (where no lines other than merseyrail had csr radio)then I can see what you mean

I'm largely talking about ex Bescot and Saltley men.

 

[LowLevel]

Interestingly, I recently had a trip to Switzerland. As far as I can see all but the most local S Bahn services and some lines more akin to tramways have a guard who dispatches the train (but doesn't necessary actually close the doors themselves) - up to and including the most modern units and TGVs. With several other networks held up as fine examples of operations working with guards, why do we have such a conviction this is the right thing to do generally? It basically does seem to be 'because it's cheap', rather than any argument over actual benefits to the passenger and the safe operation of the railway, which seem to be almost entirely discounted.

 

[the sniper]

Interestingly, I recently had a trip to Switzerland. As far as I can see all but the most local S Bahn services and some lines more akin to tramways have a guard who dispatches the train (but doesn't necessary actually close the doors themselves) - up to and including the most modern units and TGVs. With several other networks held up as fine examples of operations working with guards, why do we have such a conviction this is the right thing to do generally? It basically does seem to be 'because it's cheap', rather than any argument over actual benefits to the passenger and the safe operation of the railway, which seem to be almost entirely discounted.

The other much lauded railway nation is Japan, where even most of their vast number of suburban Metro trains have non-commercial Guards operating the doors and dispatching the train.