DOO on Northern and general discussion on future staffing arrangements

[LowLevel]

It just seems to be 'why not, it already happens' - my answer is 'why, it doesn't always happen here or abroad'. You don't save much on an 'on board manager' over a guard (SouthEastern's are paid more than I am as a guard), and certainly on the routes I work bar trains that are so wedged you can't physically walk down them (only a couple in the peak generally) I have no problems doing doors and tickets and serving everyone - an assistant is provided on the busiest trains. The thing that would be most helpful to me would be an auto announcer I could use when it was busy as it's not the doors that take me away from revenue the most, it's trundling through a busy train to make announcements. My trains have door panels in every coach.

 

[HSTEd]

If trains are wedged much of the time is that not an argument against guards?
Manual announcements can now potentially be done by someone at service control over the GSM-R under normal circumstances now.
And normally if the GSM-R has failed the tarin won't be moving so the driver can do them.

 

[muz379]

If trains are wedged much of the time is that not an argument against guards?

Id argue its an argument for them , if that wedged train had to be evacuated in an emergency , or if as sometimes happens as temperatures warm up someone faints or there is a medical emergency in the midst of it who is going to deal with these situations under the DOO model ?

 

[WelshBluebird]

And normally if the GSM-R has failed the tarin won't be moving so the driver can do them.

Wouldn't the driver be more busy trying to work out what was going on?

 

[HSTEd]

Id argue its an argument for them , if that wedged train had to be evacuated in an emergency , or if as sometimes happens as temperatures warm up someone faints or there is a medical emergency in the midst of it who is going to deal with these situations under the DOO model ?

Even with a guard you are going to have a very hard time dealing with it.
The Evacuation willn ot proceed until other rolling stock arrives in almost all cases and if there is a medical emergeancy the procedure is the same with or without a guard, inform control and proceed to the next station with all possible dispatch.

If the train is being evacuated then it is not going to be moving so the driver does not need to necessarily be in the cab any more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wouldn't the driver be more busy trying to work out what was going on?

The driver does not need to give a continuous monologue to the passengers about how he is now walking three carriages back to check some component.

 

[muz379]

Even with a guard you are going to have a very hard time dealing with it.
The Evacuation willn ot proceed until other rolling stock arrives in almost all cases and if there is a medical emergeancy the procedure is the same with or without a guard, inform control and proceed to the next station with all possible dispatch.

If the train is being evacuated then it is not going to be moving so the driver does not need to necessarily be in the cab any more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I mean an emergency evacuation , when its not going to be possible to wait for other rolling stock to arrive to effect the evacuation . Of course its going to be a bad situation even with a guard , but its going to be ever so slightly easier to manage . and in that situation the driver is to protect the lines the guard is to protect the passengers

As for medical emergency I agree that the procedure wouldnt change in terms of evacuating the person but the next station might take a while to get to in the meantime the guard can provide assistance to the person involved

 

[LowLevel]

If trains are wedged much of the time is that not an argument against guards?
Manual announcements can now potentially be done by someone at service control over the GSM-R under normal circumstances now.
And normally if the GSM-R has failed the tarin won't be moving so the driver can do them.

I must have missed the point 'a couple of trains' becomes 'much of the time' and why a train being busy in any case is an argument against having safety critical guards who can deal with any issues despite the busyness as opposed to non safety critical staff who can't even achieve their limited function through being wedged in a corner/in the cab?

If I have to go to an activated passcomm on a wedged train I will force my way through if necessary as it's a safety issue, I'm not going to try that with a ticket machine as the risk of hurting someone outweighs the benefit.

I work perfectly effectively as it is cheers - I have no incidents against me, no late on duty, no sick days ever while with my employer (several years) - I do my tickets religiously where humanly possible, I do my doors as well - the only thing I feel would make me more effective would be to have Doris make some routine announcements if I'm busy working in the train as I can already do my doors from there.

I don't feel there's anything to gain from giving half my duties to the driver as on lightly loaded trains you'll be paying me nearly as much (the same in fact) to do very little and if something happens I'll sit there like a lemon rather than assisting as I do now (or is the driver going to return from wandering around outside the unit or pull himself out of shock after he's killed someone just to make announcements and help the punters).

 

[HSTEd]

I mean an emergency evacuation , when its not going to be possible to wait for other rolling stock to arrive to effect the evacuation . Of course its going to be a bad situation even with a guard , but its going to be ever so slightly easier to manage . and in that situation the driver is to protect the lines the guard is to protect the passengers

Protecting the lines takes a handful of seconds now.
Press the big red button, then speak to the signaller on the emergeancy group call "Train xxxx, block all lines immediately, evacuation in progress"

He can then transfer to one of those cut down voice-only GSM-R handsets which means he no longer needs to be in the cab.

There is no need to go running off putting detonators and track circuit clips down any more, nor running off to signalpost telephones.
Trying to detrain several hundred people with two people is not really significantly easier than doing so with one person, it is still impossible to control the flow of people.

As for medical emergency I agree that the procedure wouldnt change in terms of evacuating the person but the next station might take a while to get to in the meantime the guard can provide assistance to the person involved

Are guards trained first aiders?
In most cases there will be many people far more qualified than a guard to give first aid, and in the case of an overcrowded train where overheating is more likely it may be difficult to even reach the person.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I must have missed the point 'a couple of trains' becomes 'much of the time' and why a train being busy in any case is an argument against having safety critical guards who can deal with any issues despite the busyness as opposed to non safety critical staff who can't even achieve their limited function through being wedged in a corner/in the cab?

Well the eventual aim is obviously the abolition of the guard job, or its replacement with someone on minimum wage.
Although I am not privy to Guard pay packets I assume they are paid significantly more than zero hours contract on £6.31/hr?

One man operation is inevitable, just as ATO rollout is likely to occur in the long term after ETCS rollout replaces trackside signalling.

If I have to go to an activated passcomm on a wedged train I will force my way through if necessary as it's a safety issue, I'm not going to try that with a ticket machine as the risk of hurting someone outweighs the benefit.

You will likely have somewhere to stow the ticket machine in most stock won't you?
If not something could be provided if you really believe that the risk of hurting someone ist hat great when using a ticket machine.

I work perfectly effectively as it is cheers - I have no incidents against me, no late on duty, no sick days ever while with my employer (several years) - I do my tickets religiously where humanly possible, I do my doors as well - the only thing I feel would make me more effective would be to have Doris make some routine announcements if I'm busy working in the train as I can already do my doors from there.

I don't feel there's anything to gain from giving half my duties to the driver as on lightly loaded trains you'll be paying me nearly as much (the same in fact) to do very little and if something happens I'll sit there like a lemon rather than assisting as I do now (or is the driver going to return from wandering around outside the unit or pull himself out of shock after he's killed someone just to make announcements and help the punters).

Firstly I am not debating your ability to do your job as it currently exists, I am simply questioning whether the position of train guard is actually tenable in the long run, and I don't think it is.

If the driver has just hit someone or has left the cab then someone at control will be able to take over announcements using the GSM-R circuit (it is one of its many functions).
The control room likely has more information about whats going to happen to the passengers anyway in that situation.
If you issue the drivers with those voice only GSM-R handsets you could also potentially route an announcement through control and back out to the train if yuo really have to, no matter where the driver is in relation to the cab system.

 

[muz379]

I don't feel there's anything to gain from giving half my duties to the driver as on lightly loaded trains you'll be paying me nearly as much (the same in fact) to do very little and if something happens I'll sit there like a lemon rather than assisting as I do now (or is the driver going to return from wandering around outside the unit or pull himself out of shock after he's killed someone just to make announcements and help the punters).

This is completely right.your going to end up with a second member of staff on board the train who is powerless to do anything or know anything during times of disruption because they are just customer service staff .

haveing the guard who knows about railway operations as well as customer service is better than just having someone who knows about customer service . A prime example is whenever you get held at a signal prior to going into a station waiting for a platform or waiting for an express to pass

 

[LowLevel]

I don't think there's any question of replacing the guard with a minimum wage anything on trains - our ticket issuing only ATEs are paid significantly more than that, Revenue Protection Officers are paid as much as guards. If you want to retain decent staff if it ever happens, they will need to be paid well. I'm not a lifelong railwayman and I've always commanded a decent wage because, I like to think, I'm intelligent, hardworking, adaptable and reliable - I'll just leave them to it if the prospect of going minimum wage comes about. I'm also not afraid of an adult argument with my employers which they've all appreciated. They try to prod me towards the fast track management scheme regularly as it is.

I should point out my persona on here is nothing like in real life - here I take the luxury on an anonymous web forum of well and truly allowing my heart to rule my postings and say what comes from there.

I do agree with Moonshot wherever he posted it that this forum is largely irrelevant to real life - self appointed experts and commentators do not an industry make.

 

[Moonshot]

This is completely right.your going to end up with a second member of staff on board the train who is powerless to do anything or know anything during times of disruption because they are just customer service staff .

haveing the guard who knows about railway operations as well as customer service is better than just having someone who knows about customer service . A prime example is whenever you get held at a signal prior to going into a station waiting for a platform or waiting for an express to pass

On my way home by Tram, the driver did that as well when we were held at a signal....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the subject of medical emergencies, the Union recently sent us an e mail stating that Conductors are now NOT first aid trained as Northern are using the appointed persons method. More details to come in the next edition of CABS and a safety brief.

 

[455driver]

Protecting the lines takes a handful of seconds now.
Press the big red button, then speak to the signaller on the emergeancy group call "Train xxxx, block all lines immediately, evacuation in progress"

He can then transfer to one of those cut down voice-only GSM-R handsets which means he no longer needs to be in the cab.

There is no need to go running off putting detonators and track circuit clips down any more, nor running off to signalpost telephones.

I cant be bothered to read the rest of your ill informed post because 90% of what you have posted above is wrong!

May I suggest you read the relevant sections of the rule book so you understand what actually needs to be done, when and in what order (especially when refering to TCACs and detonators ) so you dont post any more drivel!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I cant be bothered to read the rest of your ill informed post because 90% of what you have posted above is wrong!

May I suggest you read the relevant sections of the rule book so you understand what actually needs to be done, when and in what order (especially when refering to TCACs and detonators ) so you dont post any more drivel!

Wow I didnt realise they ripped up the rulebook so quick

So protection of the line has totally changed then?


Like 455driver has just said


Read the RULEBOOK

 

[455driver]

Wow I didnt realise they ripped up the rulebook so quick

So protection of the line has totally changed then?

I thought you were aiming that at me then!

 

[Moonshot]

I cant be bothered to read the rest of your ill informed post because 90% of what you have posted above is wrong!

May I suggest you read the relevant sections of the rule book so you understand what actually needs to be done, when and in what order (especially when refering to TCACs and detonators ) so you dont post any more drivel!

I rather think the rule book will be getting superceded in certain sections by GSMR - particularly when it comes to laying detonators. How often are detonators actually laid anyway UK wide?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I thought you were aiming that at me then!

Luckily you kept reading then lmao

wile I remember just a small part of the Rulebook
1st part for the driver if he is incapcitated the guard

3.1 Providing emergency protection
You must:
• place a track-circuit operating clip on every line that is
obstructed
• show a hand danger signal to any train that is approaching
the obstruction
• protect with detonators as described in sections 3.2 to 3.8.
If the whole train is derailed, you must place a track-circuit
operating clip on the line on which your train is standing before you
carry out emergency protection.
When you have completed emergency protection, you must:
• continue as far as necessary, if you still need to contact the
signaller, or
• return to your train.


2.2 Guard’s actions
You must check:
• if any other lines are obstructed (if in doubt, treat them as
obstructed), and decide the quickest way to stop any
approaching trains, and
• place a track-circuit operating clip on any lines that are
obstructed.
You must then contact the driver.
You must agree with the driver whether you need to:
• help with carrying out emergency protection, or
• stay with the train.
You must carry out the instructions shown for the driver in this
module if you:
• cannot contact the driver, or
• find that the driver is unavailable.
If the driver needs help in carrying out emergency protection, you
must:
• provide the help personally, or
• arrange for any other competent person to help.
If you provide the help yourself, you must reach a clear
understanding with the driver as to which lines you will protect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I rather think the rule book will be getting superceded in certain sections by GSMR - particularly when it comes to laying detonators. How often are detonators actually laid anyway UK wide?

any possesion. In an emergency etc etc

nothing in the Rulebook is superceded by gsmr. Now you should know this. GSMR is nothing more than a very useful tool

 

[Moonshot]

Luckily you kept reading then lmao

wile I remember just a small part of the Rulebook
1st part for the driver if he is incapcitated the guard

3.1 Providing emergency protection
You must:
• place a track-circuit operating clip on every line that is
obstructed
• show a hand danger signal to any train that is approaching
the obstruction
• protect with detonators as described in sections 3.2 to 3.8.
If the whole train is derailed, you must place a track-circuit
operating clip on the line on which your train is standing before you
carry out emergency protection.
When you have completed emergency protection, you must:
• continue as far as necessary, if you still need to contact the
signaller, or
• return to your train.


2.2 Guard’s actions
You must check:
• if any other lines are obstructed (if in doubt, treat them as
obstructed), and decide the quickest way to stop any
approaching trains, and
• place a track-circuit operating clip on any lines that are
obstructed.
You must then contact the driver.
You must agree with the driver whether you need to:
• help with carrying out emergency protection, or
• stay with the train.
You must carry out the instructions shown for the driver in this
module if you:
• cannot contact the driver, or
• find that the driver is unavailable.
If the driver needs help in carrying out emergency protection, you
must:
• provide the help personally, or
• arrange for any other competent person to help.
If you provide the help yourself, you must reach a clear
understanding with the driver as to which lines you will protect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


any possesion. In an emergency etc etc

nothing in the Rulebook is superceded by gsmr. Now you should know this. GSMR is nothing more than a very useful tool

You obviously cant read ....I said I reckon some aspects of the rule will be getting superceded by GSMR. Which has to be better than laying detonators at each end of a tunnel if the distance required to lay dets falls in a tunnel. Who would actually want to do that at places like Standedge where it could take a significant anount of time to actually do that ?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You obviously cant read ....I said I reckon some aspects of the rule will be getting superceded by GSMR. Which has to be better than laying detonators at each end of a tunnel if the distance required to lay dets falls in a tunnel. Who would actually want to do that at places like Standedge where it could take a significant anount of time to actually do that ?

GSMR is a tool and would be very unlikely to supercede the basic Track Protection. Common sense as Technology can fail very easily (only needs a dodgy mcb) then you have lost a very useful system.

So as the rulebook states the protection distance falls within the tunnel what does it state and what should you be carrying? I think that quite easily covers det usage!

 

[Moonshot]

GSMR is a tool and would be very unlikely to supercede the basic Track Protection. Common sense as Technology can fail very easily (only needs a dodgy mcb) then you have lost a very useful system.

So as the rulebook states the protection distance falls within the tunnel what does it state and what should you be carrying? I think that quite easily covers det usage!

But you dont actually know that !!!! I also asked how often are detonators used? But I ll clarify that a bit further - how often do guards lay detonators?

 

[A-driver]

You obviously cant read ....I said I reckon some aspects of the rule will be getting superceded by GSMR. Which has to be better than laying detonators at each end of a tunnel if the distance required to lay dets falls in a tunnel. Who would actually want to do that at places like Standedge where it could take a significant anount of time to actually do that ?

Why would emergancy protection be taken out? GSMR is still prone to problems-thee are still a large number of dead spots throughout the uk where in an emergancy you will not get through to the signaller, red button or no red button. Or in an extreme case such as fire if the GSMR panel becomes damaged or inaccessible, then it comes down to laying dets and clips the old fashioned way.

GSMR is still able to fail like CSR can. Perhaps you never had CSR up in your region but GSMR adds very little in terms of emergancy procedures, CSR technically makes dets and clips redundant to for EP purposes but it still remains a vital part of the rule book.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But you dont actually know that !!!! I also asked how often are detonators used? But I ll clarify that a bit further - how often do guards lay detonators?

Any Guard will tell you (but you should know that) Once is too many as that means your Driver is incapacitated and you are in the midst of a very serious incident. So the answer is not very often but when A guard has to do it it is vital.

 

[Moonshot]

Any Guard will tell you (but you should know that) Once is too many as that means your Driver is incapacitated and you are in the midst of a very serious incident. So the answer is not very often but when A guard has to do it it is vital.

Not very often is what exactly ?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Not very often is what exactly ?

Sorry don't have the exact figures from the Whole of the Railway Network kind of hard to get hold of :roll:

 

[Legzr1]

Not very often is what exactly ?

As often as is necessary.

 

[Moonshot]

As often as is necessary.

And how many times has it been necessary in say , the last 5 years?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And how many times has it been necessary in say , the last 5 years?

Why do you insist on asking a question that unless you have all the details from Network Rail you cannot answer?

 

[Moonshot]

Sorry don't have the exact figures from the Whole of the Railway Network kind of hard to get hold of :roll:

Ok ..so how many times have you personally laid dets?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ok ..so how many times have you personally laid dets?

Never but I know of at least 10 guards at my Depot who have in the last 10 years

 

[Legzr1]

Not very often.

Just as it's not very often to have incidents involving dangerous goods but I'm pleased there are processes in place for dealing with them.

What's the chances of a nuclear train carrying spent fuel rods colliding with 3000 tonnes of aviation fuel?

Slim?
Next to non-existant?

Ok, save ink and remove all publications concerning them...

 

[A-driver]

Ok ..so how many times have you personally laid dets?

One would hope that the vast majority of guards have never laid dets. There are countless rules and procedures in the rule book and traction manuals that the vast majority of drivers have never had to do and will never do but it dosnt mean they can be removed. It is still essential that the competancy is retained incase they are needed.

How many times have fire extinguishers actually been properly used on a train? Hardly ever but should we remove them?!