EMR Class 360's

[43102EMR]

Except they didn't because the 360s were released late from GA due to late arrival and problems with their new stock. And for that reason alone EMR couldn't have scheduled any works on them - it's a bit like booking a builder to work on a house you're buying before you've exchanged contracts - if you do that there's a risk your builder won't be able to do the work if the completion gets delayed as it won't be your house, and potentially would have to reschedule you to several months later. And you might also be liable to penalty fees as well.

If you organise projects, you *ought* to understand all these factors, rather than glibly making comments and suggestions which your experience should tell you is unviable.

They organised the modifications to 110mph as well as the other factors of the cascade well before the transfer as the lease was meant to have commenced from August - they could have even been refurbished/repainted prior to their release from Greater Anglia had they managed to make the arrangements, similar to what’s going on with the 170s they’re receiving from WMR which are themselves delayed to EMR due to a similar situation…

 

[A0wen]

They organised the modifications to 110mph as well as the other factors of the cascade well before the transfer as the lease was meant to have commenced from August - they could have even been refurbished/repainted prior to their release from Greater Anglia had they managed to make the arrangements, similar to what’s going on with the 170s they’re receiving from WMR which are themselves delayed to EMR due to a similar situation…

The changes to 110mph were minimal - carried out at Siemens Northampton as I believe it was similar to the work already done to the 350s on the WCML - I think it was just a pantograph head change ? So nothing like a re-paint or refit of the interior.

Without knowing what GA's contract terms were you simply can't make a statement like "they could have even been refurbished/repainted prior to their release from Greater Anglia" - if the terms of the contract they were on at GA was release for essential maintenance only, then a repaint or internal refit would have been a complete non starter and may have been due to the length of time GA would have been without the units.

 

[Wolfie]

The changes to 110mph were minimal - carried out at Siemens Northampton as I believe it was similar to the work already done to the 350s on the WCML - I think it was just a pantograph head change ? So nothing like a re-paint or refit of the interior.

Without knowing what GA's contract terms were you simply can't make a statement like "they could have even been refurbished/repainted prior to their release from Greater Anglia" - if the terms of the contract they were on at GA was release for essential maintenance only, then a repaint or internal refit would have been a complete non starter and may have been due to the length of time GA would have been without the units.

Indeed if GA's franchise commitment to DfT for example specifies the number of seats available then changing the trains from 3+2 seating to 2+2 potentially had all sorts of negative implications for GA...

 

[3973EXL]

ROG STP

19/06 37611

Realtime Trains - 091X 1109 Wembley H.S. to Cricklewood South Sidings


21/06

Re altime Trains - FRGT 0410 Cricklewood Depot Exit Rd to Eastleigh Arlington (Zg)

5Q86 37611 360121


37611 and 360121 | Good old tractor to start the gloomy Mond… | Flickr

 

[swt_passenger]

5Q86 37611 360121


37611 and 360121 | Good old tractor to start the gloomy Mond… | Flickr

Now that the first 360 has been at Eastleigh a week, is there any insider news on what’s being done, and by who?

 

[43102EMR]

Now that the first 360 has been at Eastleigh a week, is there any insider news on what’s being done, and by who?

My guess is it’s the same contractor doing the SWR Desiro refurbs

 

[swt_passenger]

My guess is it’s the same contractor doing the SWR Desiro refurbs

AIUI from the SWR announcements that was a Siemens contract, I wondered if this one would be too a couple of weeks back, post #1491.

 

[Railperf]

IIRC 360108 was seen heading to Ilford yesterday morning. Anyone know why?

 

[Pippy1505]

IIRC 360108 was seen heading to Ilford yesterday morning. Anyone know why?

wont be Ilford would have been Northampton Kings Heath

 

[Railperf]

wont be Ilford would have been Northampton Kings Heath

Ahh yes. Just checked RTT and you are right. what a long circular path through East London and back across London!!

 

[A0wen]

Ahh yes. Just checked RTT and you are right. what a long circular path through East London and back across London!!

You're not wrong ! Bet somebody had fun dreaming up that particular route........ One does have to wonder whether there couldn't have been an easier way ?

 

[Railperf]

You're not wrong ! Bet somebody had fun dreaming up that particular route........ One does have to wonder whether there couldn't have been an easier way ?

Looks like it was the only route that allowed a single loco to drag the unit without a reversal anywhere.

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite a common route.

 

[Aictos]

Just wondering but are there any drivers on here who used to drive them for Greater Anglia?

 

[Railperf]

Just wondering but are there any drivers on here who used to drive them for Greater Anglia?

There are..what do you want to know?

 

[Aictos]

There are..what do you want to know?

Wondered what they were like from both a fleet and passenger fleet point of view compared to today?

Last time I was on one was years ago and that was from the GEML junction station with the line to Barking.

 

[Railperf]

From a passenger point of view, they were a big improvement over the 321's. I used them daily from their introduction for several years. At the time they were probably one of the fastest accelerating EMU's in the country.
Aircon was the biggest improvement (despite being quite noisy) plus a PRM loo. These units were a lot quieter at speed in terms of interior noise, and had a good comfy ride.
Maybe the 'ironing board' style seats in standard was one of the few disappointments. Not everyone enjoyed the warbling sound under acceleration.

Not being a driver, i can't comment on that side of things except to say that those drivers I am in contact with appreciated the superior acceleration and braking of the units compared to the 321's - which was useful when making up time lost due to delays and incidents. They were also one of the most reliable fleets in the country.

Initially, there was talk about them being used on an express Liverpool Street to Ipswich service with only 1 or 2 stops in something like 64 minutes. But they soon started to be integrated alongside the 321's on everyday Ipswich, Clacton, Harwich diagrams.

As a result the 360's performance was never truly exploited as the timetable required some uniformity and needed to be timed for the slowest traction - 321's.
But get on a train delayed by around 5 to 10 mins early on its journey, and these units would literally fly, often making up most if not all of any delay!

Towards the end of their life on GA, the interiors were starting to look very tired and in need of a refurb/refresh. Drivers reported to me that some of the dampers were becoming worn - resulting in a slightly livelier ride and lots more creaks and rattles. It's been suggested this may have been due to a rundown in maintenance as the fleet was being replaced - and Modern Railways MTIN figures reported a reduction in reliability.

The Class 321'R' Renatus conversion was designed to bring those 321's to Class 360 performance levels, as well as the PRM mods and aircon, but I don't know any driver that would take a 321R or standard 321 over a 360. Probably very few would take a 321R over the standard 321's.

As a passenger i would always 'groan' if a 321 turned up instead of the booked or 'hoped for' 360.
From a performance perspective the new 720's are taking over the baton, but again not stretched performance wise by the 321 derived timetable.
They are cleaner/ quieter and more spacious, the aircon is quieter. And drivers are waxing lyrical about the cab environment and performance.
I do miss the 360's but the 720's have raised the bar - even if their fleet reliability is still very low compared to the 360's.

 

[F Great Eastern]

From someone who travelled on them regularly most of their lives, save for a few years under National Express East Anglia, they were well and truly a breath of fresh air compared to what they replaced, especially the 312s and the 321s.

The 360s are quieter, give a far better ride quality and have excellent air conditioning compared to what they replaced. The seats are also far better than the poorly angled seats on the 321s that are not natural for a tall person. They were easily too powerful for the allocations that they were on and could, as has been said upthread, be running 10 minutes or so late and easily make that up. E

Their build quality always was excellent with everything from the passenger information systems to the fittings on the train. Very few rattles even at tops peed and they always gave a nice quiet ride. I have only been on one that failed in the time that I have been on them and on that occasion it did not appear anything really dramatic. I've seen the odd door out of action but that was very rare and of course someone flooding the toilet every now and then.

Sadly especially in later years in Greater Anglia they were unloved inside and lacked proper cleaning and care and started to look very tired. It looked totally like a TOC who had decided to merely focus on the short term as they knew the stock was leaving. So it does not surprise me that there have been some issues with them on the new services since they have been unloved somewhat for a while. I know that some people i were disappointed as well when those units won a golden spanner that GA seemed disinterested in actually telling anyone it or mentioning the fact.

I think we have to look at the fact that maintenance was really let go with maintenance of stock leaving GA.. They went from 84,000 MTIN to 17,900 within a year. Class 379s went from 62,400 to 38,200, the 317s went from 12,500 to approx 10,000, the 321s from 28,500 to 19,500. No wonder there were so many short forms on the period the 2020 golden spanners covered.

Sadly I never got a chance to travel on one of them in the months before they left thanks to COVID, but I hope to catch one on EMR in the future. They really transformed the routes they operated on when they came into service and were a solid, modern project with build quality that you rarely see. I really think the whole Desiro family with the 350/444/450 cousins was the best EMU platform of it's time. Time and time again it's been top of the league tables and the build quality has always put Bombardier to shame.

Also kudos has to go with both First and Stagecoach for having the boldness to go down the road they did with them in terms of the kind of full maintenance contract they were on. Siemens were new to the full train build market in the UK, but they worked really well with these two groups and anyone I speak to about them, says that they were a massive breath of fresh air compared to what both Stagecoach and First had been dealing with in relation to the Alstom fleets they previously procured.

As for the Renatus 321s, they have better seats and are more modern inside and have plug sockets (if you are lucky) compared to the standard 321s. There. I named three good things. There are many other bad things about them that a list would be as long as my arm and overall they are not in the same league as the 360s, and apart from the three things I mentioned earlier, there are many aspects which I'd prefer a 321 to a Renatus 321.

 

[43066]

At the time they were probably one of the fastest accelerating EMU's in the country.

Interesting comments re. the 360’s performance. From 0-30 they are impressively quick, but tail off above that. They also lose speed more easily than 222s on gradients, presumably because they’re lighter and therefore have less inertia. In terms of acceleration above 60mph, I’m convinced a 222 would show a 360 a clean pair of heels.

I suppose that’s a reflection of the extremely high performance of the 222s which are somewhat over engined and lighter than the other 22x variants due to the lack of tilting gubbins.

 

[Railperf]

The performance is very similar - maybe more similar than it feels.

The 360's launch off the line better because they don't have to wait for the engine / genesis to spool up and deliver maximum power as a 222 does. And the current Class 222 genset setup has been derated to appx 700hp per engine. I just checked 2 x Class 222 runs starting at Luton and 2 x Class 360 runs from the same station and both delivered times of between 1min 40 to 2 mins for the 60-100 mph sprint.
It will depend on which power notch drivers are using on the 360's. And similarly on the 222's as well as the state of the engines - track conditions etc.
The fastest 360 run in my books was 13 secs faster from a Luton start to passing Leagrave, but the 222 was 5 seconds faster to Harlington thanks to 125mph running - and stopped almost 2 min quicker at Bedford. Would be interested in seeing what a 360 will do at 110mph south of Bedford.
From Bedford to Wellingborough, the 360 has a neutral section to contend with - pausing its acceleration - which reduces speed between 5 to 10mph but it was recovering by the summit.

 

[Recessio]

Could have sworn I saw a purple 360 alongside blue 360s at the sidings between Cricklewood & Hendon while speeding past on Thameslink - maybe it was a purple 222 in front of them instead?

 

[Domh245]

Could have sworn I saw a purple 360 alongside blue 360s at the sidings between Cricklewood & Hendon while speeding past on Thameslink - maybe it was a purple 222 in front of them instead?

There is a solitary purple 360, 360102, it was done in vinyl for the brand launch

 

[43055]

There is a solitary purple 360, 360102, it was done in vinyl for the brand launch

360112 was also done for the launch so a full 8 coach set was purple.

 

[Recessio]

There is a solitary purple 360, 360102, it was done in vinyl for the brand launch

Ahh thank you, I can cancel my eye test now

 

[londonmidland]

Seen just now at Kettering.

 

[D7666]

From someone who travelled on them regularly most of their lives, save for a few years under National Express East Anglia, they were well and truly a breath of fresh air compared to what they replaced, especially the 312s and the 321s.

The 360s are quieter, give a far better ride quality and have excellent air conditioning compared to what they replaced. The seats are also far better than the poorly angled seats on the 321s that are not natural for a tall person. They were easily too powerful for the allocations that they were on and could, as has been said upthread, be running 10 minutes or so late and easily make that up. E

Their build quality always was excellent with everything from the passenger information systems to the fittings on the train. Very few rattles even at tops peed and they always gave a nice quiet ride. I have only been on one that failed in the time that I have been on them and on that occasion it did not appear anything really dramatic. I've seen the odd door out of action but that was very rare and of course someone flooding the toilet every now and then.

.......

Also kudos has to go with both First and Stagecoach for having the boldness to go down the road they did with them in terms of the kind of full maintenance contract they were on. Siemens were new to the full train build market in the UK, but they worked really well with these two groups and anyone I speak to about them, says that they were a massive breath of fresh air compared to what both Stagecoach and First had been dealing with in relation to the Alstom fleets they previously procured.

Seconded, re. Siemens in general.

I commute on Thameslink north and it's so good 700s are Siemens. Too many focus on 700s seats and lack of wifi etc, but 700s are nonetheless a very very good unit, and I doubt anything from Derby or Tokyo could have matched.

Siemens was new to GB traction market, but they were already established here in other fields (I used to work for them) and they had a very good pilot project with HEx; yes CAF built those trains (Siemens had no in house build capability then) but it was a Siemens project, both construction and maintenance. There is much to be gained from a small captive operation.

The 350\360\465 family is very good IMHO - and I actually prefer 450s to 444s, 2+3 seating notwithstanding.

The issue here though w.r.t. other makers is money. You get what you pay for. And the bean counters at Whitehall look for short term savings. Which means they look away from Munich.

 

[RailWonderer]

There is not much more I can add about them that hasn't been said already - they were light years ahead of anything else when they were new and even today they hold up well - I rode my last one Jan this year albeit with a tired interior amid falling MTIN scores. Rolling stock from 1989-2002 changed far more than it did from 2002-2018. The 360s made the 321s feel way past their sell by date even in the late 2000s and should have been replaced many years ago. However because no one ever had a long franchise term, and given the dark NXEA years, the 360 order was never expanded and were limited to old antiquated 321 timings which mean they will be of much better use on EMR.

Having been on a few 720s, they are not leaps and bounds ahead of the 360s on ride quality or, acceleration. The air con is quieter and they have plug sockets, but in some ways they are worse - the seating leaves the aisles too narrow - I have only been on 4 of them and one service I was on had passengers scraping and banging the seats trying to haul luggage through the aisle. The 360 configuration was the best 3+2 there is, equalled by the 350/2s and 450s of course.

 

[59CosG95]

Seconded, re. Siemens in general.

I commute on Thameslink north and it's so good 700s are Siemens. Too many focus on 700s seats and lack of wifi etc, but 700s are nonetheless a very very good unit, and I doubt anything from Derby or Tokyo could have matched.

Siemens was new to GB traction market, but they were already established here in other fields (I used to work for them) and they had a very good pilot project with HEx; yes CAF built those trains (Siemens had no in house build capability then) but it was a Siemens project, both construction and maintenance. There is much to be gained from a small captive operation.

The 350\360\465 family is very good IMHO - and I actually prefer 450s to 444s, 2+3 seating notwithstanding.

The issue here though w.r.t. other makers is money. You get what you pay for. And the bean counters at Whitehall look for short term savings. Which means they look away from Munich.

Small bit of pedantry - the Desiro units were all manufactured in Krefeld, NRW (although Siemens' main loco workshop is the former Krauss-Maffei factory at München-Allach), and Hitachi's Japan-built units were all manufactured in Kasado, Kudamatsu City, Yamaguchi Prefecture. I'm not sure Hitachi has any rail manufacturing facilities within Tokyo itself.
Completely agree re Whitehall though.

 

[D7666]

Small bit of pedantry - the Desiro units were all manufactured in Krefeld, NRW (although Siemens' main loco workshop is the former Krauss-Maffei factory at München-Allach), and Hitachi's Japan-built units were all manufactured in Kasado, Kudamatsu City, Yamaguchi Prefecture. I'm not sure Hitachi has any rail manufacturing facilities within Tokyo itself.
Completely agree re Whitehall though.

You have misunderstood.

Derby is [was!] HQ of Bombardier Transportation UK
Munich HQ of Siemens Transportation
Tokyo HQ of Hitachi
Whitehall HQ of DfT.

Nothing to do with who built what where, and all about where the HQs are, which is where the high level decisions are made.

But since you raised the matter, you are incorrect. Not "all ... Desiro units ... Krefeld".

360s - those 360s that are subject of this thread - are motor coaches Krefeld and trailer coaches Vienna;
350s are motor coaches Krefeld and trailer coaches Vienna or Prague or Krefeld depending which batch you look at;
450s are all mixed both motors and trailers from both Vienna and Krefeld;
and so on.

It is true Desiro CITY are all Krefeld assembled cars, but [the pedantic bit] that word City was missing and the thread subject is 360 that are not Desiro City, 700s are a digression. Touchee.

 

[westcoaster]

The performance is very similar - maybe more similar than it feels.

The 360's launch off the line better because they don't have to wait for the engine / genesis to spool up and deliver maximum power as a 222 does. And the current Class 222 genset setup has been derated to appx 700hp per engine. I just checked 2 x Class 222 runs starting at Luton and 2 x Class 360 runs from the same station and both delivered times of between 1min 40 to 2 mins for the 60-100 mph sprint.
It will depend on which power notch drivers are using on the 360's. And similarly on the 222's as well as the state of the engines - track conditions etc.
The fastest 360 run in my books was 13 secs faster from a Luton start to passing Leagrave, but the 222 was 5 seconds faster to Harlington thanks to 125mph running - and stopped almost 2 min quicker at Bedford. Would be interested in seeing what a 360 will do at 110mph south of Bedford.
From Bedford to Wellingborough, the 360 has a neutral section to contend with - pausing its acceleration - which reduces speed between 5 to 10mph but it was recovering by the summit.

I left luton the same time as a 360 the other day in a 700 (FLU),off the line the 360 was quicker (I only 60% power applied) but at about 60mph we started to overtake the 360 again.

Not had one above 104mph north out of bedford, but had line speed heading south.