Fate of HST

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torten

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I've been reading a lately about the HST being withdrawn from the Great Western Mainline, and that Grand Central are withdrawing theirs from service.

What will be happening to these trains? Great Western are getting rid of 108 sets, and while twenty-six sets are heading north to Scotland, I can't find out anything on the remaining ones. I can't see them being scrapped. Will they end up in the hands of spot hire companies or will some go abroad?
 
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roversfan2001

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Most probably a mix of scrap and to railtour operators. They're really quite old trains that have had sustained heavy use for decades.
 

507021

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Some shortened HSTs are staying with GWR, but I don't know how many, or how long for.
 

Fuzzytop

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GWR aren't getting rid of 108 sets! Fag packet maths (and assuming GWR's 119 power cars, of which a couple of dozen remain as sprinter replacements, and 54 off to Scotland), I count 40 or so power cars from GWR off lease in the next couple of years, along with the 32 from Virgin East Coast and 6 from Grand Central.

It would seem that the fate of over half of the power cars is that they're set to remain in service, until at the very least the new CrossCountry / East Midlands franchises start renewing rolling stock in early 2020.

As for the others, and of course the coaches removed from shortened sets, then yes I'd second razor blades.
 

43096

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I've been reading a lately about the HST being withdrawn from the Great Western Mainline, and that Grand Central are withdrawing theirs from service.

What will be happening to these trains? Great Western are getting rid of 108 sets, and while twenty-six sets are heading north to Scotland, I can't find out anything on the remaining ones. I can't see them being scrapped. Will they end up in the hands of spot hire companies or will some go abroad?

Why won't they be scrapped? They are end of life, 40 year old trains. If there is no-one who wants to lease them, then they will go into the bin.
 

yorksrob

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I would hope that some get stored, at least for a while in case an unexpected need arises for main line rolling stock.
 

CosherB

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I think Scotrail, XC and GWR GTi are the only confirmed users of HSTs post 2020. Rumours of VTEC hanging onto a few for Inverness services not confirmed.

GC HSTs are off to EMT, but I'd imagine these plus the rest of the EMT fleet will be off to the Kingsbury gas axe once the new East Midlands franchise is let and new rolling stock plans announced.

As 43096 has already said, let's get used to the idea that large numbers of HST stock is going to be scrapped in the near future. They've been hammered at up to 125mph for 40 years. Yes, they have been utterly brilliant during their operating life, but it's now time to move on.
 

InOban

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I would hope that the tour operators buy a few. Even at 40 years old, they are younger than the stock they currently use, their low axle load gives them a wide RA, and they don't require shunting manouvers at terminal stations. The Oban route gets very few tours because it is restricted to 37 or Deltics, but I'm sure a 43 is OK (the NR HST visits).
 

CaptainHaddock

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As 43096 has already said, let's get used to the idea that large numbers of HST stock is going to be scrapped in the near future. They've been hammered at up to 125mph for 40 years. Yes, they have been utterly brilliant during their operating life, but it's now time to move on.

Yet still they're far more comfortable and less cramped than the dinky little 4-car Voyagers and Meridians that have replaced them!
 

mallard

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GC HSTs are off to EMT

Great, to the East Midlands gets lumped with the remaining unrefurbished stock while the much nicer "Mallard" refurbs from VTEC go straight to the scrapyard... VTEC's interior colour scheme even matches EMTs and EMT regularly "borrows" VTEC buffet cars.

the new East Midlands franchise is let and new rolling stock plans announced

Despite the empty promises of bi-modes as compensation for the scrapping of plans to bring the route to something approaching modern standards, there's no chance of any new rolling stock on the East Midlands franchise in the foreseeable future. The 222s are still very new and have nowhere obvious to go.

Maybe some cascaded 156s or even 170s from GA for regional routes. If we're really "lucky", XC will get some bi-modes (a place where it actually makes some sense; Doncaster/York(/Leeds eventually) - Edinburgh/Glasgow and Birmingham - Manchester are much more worthwhile wired stretches than London-Kettering) and "future EMT" will get some second-hand voyagers.
 

CosherB

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Great, to the East Midlands gets lumped with the remaining unrefurbished stock while the much nicer "Mallard" refurbs from VTEC go straight to the scrapyard... VTEC's interior colour scheme even matches EMTs and EMT regularly "borrows" VTEC buffet cars.



Despite the empty promises of bi-modes as compensation for the scrapping of plans to bring the route to something approaching modern standards, there's no chance of any new rolling stock on the East Midlands franchise in the foreseeable future. The 222s are still very new and have nowhere obvious to go.

Maybe some cascaded 156s or even 170s from GA for regional routes. If we're really "lucky", XC will get some bi-modes (a place where it actually makes some sense; Doncaster/York(/Leeds eventually) - Edinburgh/Glasgow and Birmingham - Manchester are much more worthwhile wired stretches than London-Kettering) and "future EMT" will get some second-hand voyagers.

How about some ex-VTEC Mk4 rakes operated top-and-tail with shiny new 125mph diesel or bi-mode locos? ;)
 

43096

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Great, to the East Midlands gets lumped with the remaining unrefurbished stock while the much nicer "Mallard" refurbs from VTEC go straight to the scrapyard...

GC HSTs are available next year, VTEC sets are not. Given that the requirement on EMT is next year, what else do you propose?
 

mallard

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GC HSTs are available next year, VTEC sets are not. Given that the requirement on EMT is next year, what else do you propose?

Why is the EMT "requirement" next year? There's no pressing need for new stock on the MML at all. Why would waiting another year or two until VTEC HSTs go off-lease be a significant issue?
 

43096

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Why is the EMT "requirement" next year? There's no pressing need for new stock on the MML at all. Why would waiting another year or two until VTEC HSTs go off-lease be a significant issue?

I am not able to say why, but the requirement is next year, hence why the GC sets are transferring.
 

torten

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Why won't they be scrapped? They are end of life, 40 year old trains. If there is no-one who wants to lease them, then they will go into the bin.
On the other hand, they have good route availability, are still in wide use, and have been re-engined in the past 10 years. It's a fact of life some are going to be cut up, but I would be surprised if some surplus units don't end up with spot hire companies, or if some aren't converted to move parcels.
 

mallard

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I am not able to say why

Sounds like the D(a)fT has found yet another way to screw over the East Midlands then...

My guess would be that SWR or Scotrail have decided that they like the look of EMTs 158s and the GC HSTs are to fill the gap on Norwich-Liverpool.
 

zn1

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the Fate of HST comes down to several things

Which Tocs will take them on

coded repair overhaul costs and component availabilty - (BT10 bogie assembliess are worked hard - they only have so many millions of miles in them)

cost of further life extension over revenue to be earned.

The Bodies need to be checked visually for corrosion at solebar and roof levels internally and externally, they will require rewiring soon,if not done already, and at least 2 of them blessed accessible Lavvies installed in each regionally operated set (9+cars)

The Locomotives themselves have been life extended, and could if the Roscos were inventive be modernised further...

its already been noted that the 1st squadrons of 125 are already 41 years old. it would make sense to withdraw as required these vehicles IF and when replacements become available...in the meantime they are working well, are easy to maintain and keep in traffic, it all comes down to that horrible phrase - is it more economic to keep in traffic or to scrap
 

1179_Clee2

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Why is the EMT "requirement" next year? There's no pressing need for new stock on the MML at all. Why would waiting another year or two until VTEC HSTs go off-lease be a significant issue?

You are forgetting about TSI PRM

Due to reason beyond its control EMT will be the last franchise to state how they are going to get their train fleet ready for the 2020 deadline.
Bringing in the GC stock will create some spare vehicles in the EMT fleet to send stock away to get the mods required.
 

richieb1971

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How many HST trainset are there?

Heard a while back there were 180 and most were still in service.


It would be nice to keep around 30 sets for preservation, tours, open days and such. Although I wouldn't want them replacing all the current stock that does that job because thats like choosing between drowning and burning to death :lol:
 

47802

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Great, to the East Midlands gets lumped with the remaining unrefurbished stock while the much nicer "Mallard" refurbs from VTEC go straight to the scrapyard... VTEC's interior colour scheme even matches EMTs and EMT regularly "borrows" VTEC buffet cars.



Despite the empty promises of bi-modes as compensation for the scrapping of plans to bring the route to something approaching modern standards, there's no chance of any new rolling stock on the East Midlands franchise in the foreseeable future. The 222s are still very new and have nowhere obvious to go.

Maybe some cascaded 156s or even 170s from GA for regional routes. If we're really "lucky", XC will get some bi-modes (a place where it actually makes some sense; Doncaster/York(/Leeds eventually) - Edinburgh/Glasgow and Birmingham - Manchester are much more worthwhile wired stretches than London-Kettering) and "future EMT" will get some second-hand voyagers.

Your making a lot of assumptions there, the GC HST's may well be only temporary up the 2020 compliance date, new Bi-modes for the MML are clearly not going to be around by 2020 so some sort of decision will have to made as what happens with EMT HST's beyond then it could of course include swapping MML HST sets for VTEC and/or remaining GWR ones.
 

A0wen

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I would hope that some get stored, at least for a while in case an unexpected need arises for main line rolling stock.

Alongside the 442s you mean?

There are relatively few sensible uses HSTs could be put to work on. They are relatively slow to accelerate, even when reduced in length and are totally unsuited to stop/start type work, which is where the likely demand is going to be.

The fast long-distance services will already have been allocated new stock or remain in the hands of their existing stock - e.g. Pendolinos, Cl 800s and variants, Stadlers (GEML) or new bi-modes (MML).

So what does that leave?
 

CosherB

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It would be nice to keep around 30 sets for preservation, tours, open days and such. Although I wouldn't want them replacing all the current stock that does that job because thats like choosing between drowning and burning to death :lol:

How have you arrived at the figure of 30? Which companies can sustain that total number of HST sets? None I would imagine! :lol:
 

mallard

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Your making a lot of assumptions there, the GC HST's may well be only temporary up the 2020 compliance date, new Bi-modes for the MML are clearly not going to be around by 2020 so some sort of decision will have to made as what happens with EMT HST's beyond then it could of course include swapping MML HST sets for VTEC and/or remaining GWR ones.

The only way bi-modes could possibly make sense on the MML is if the plan were for staged extensions to modernisation until the route is completely modern. Since the current plan is to let the line rot until at least after HS2 Phase 2 is built, there's no point.

The only reason bi-modes have even been proposed is to keep diesels out of London. Londoners matter to the government, people in the Midlands/North do not. I'm not sure why, London voted predominantly Labour, as did Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield. I suppose it's the fact that they've got a mayor...

Even if the MML did get bi-modes, nobody's yet given a sensible answer as to where the 222s are expected to go. A silly microfleet of a few bi-modes alongside them makes even less sense.

The idea of swapping unrefurbished carriages for ex-VTEC carriages once they become available would be nice, but the D(a)fT would never do anything that makes that much sense. I'd be surprised if chief idiot Grayling could even find Nottingham on a map, let alone know the differences between different fleets of Mk3s. Even if it did happen, the East Midlands would probably end up with ex-GWR sardine cans out of pure spite.
 

Bletchleyite

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Even if the MML did get bi-modes, nobody's yet given a sensible answer as to where the 222s are expected to go.

Is not the obvious answer to that XC for the time being? Already a "22x shop" with a serious overcrowding problem. I know the TMS is different, but that's just software.

They would allow the number of 4-car workings to be reduced heavily, either by doubling up or by running 5-car instead.

Bi-modes would be good for XC as well, but I doubt there's the money for a full fleet replacement on the whole network!
 
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CosherB

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Your making a lot of assumptions there, the GC HST's may well be only temporary up the 2020 compliance date, new Bi-modes for the MML are clearly not going to be around by 2020 so some sort of decision will have to made as what happens with EMT HST's beyond then it could of course include swapping MML HST sets for VTEC and/or remaining GWR ones.

What does that achieve? VTEC HSTs and the remaining GWR HSTs will also not be 2020 compliant, as things stand.

EMT has been backed into a corner with it's HST stock and PRM compliance. I'm sure the DFT will give a derogation for their ongoing use until replacement stock is delivered.

I doubt there is engineering capacity in the UK to add more Mk3 stock for 2020 conversion over and above all of the other rolling stock that still needs to be done!
 

Emblematic

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Heard a while back there were 180 and most were still in service.

It would be nice to keep around 30 sets for preservation, tours, open days and such. Although I wouldn't want them replacing all the current stock that does that job because thats like choosing between drowning and burning to death :lol:

Er, no, not 180 sets. There were 197 production powercars built, 3 are written off, three with NR for the NMT, leaving 191 - enough for 95 sets.
Between the powercars, we have most of the original Mk3 coaches surviving, plus a number of conversions from Mk3 hauled stock used to supplement the original sets. So pretty much as many as there ever were at the moment, with the carriage numbers just starting to decrease over the next few months.

Thirty sets is 1/3 of the total fleet - where would you put them all? You need around 6km of sidings for that lot.
 

mallard

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Is not the obvious answer to that XC for the time being? Already a "22x shop" with a serious overcrowding problem. I know the TMS is different, but that's just software.

They would allow the number of 4-car workings to be reduced heavily, either by doubling up or by running 5-car instead.

Bi-modes would be good for XC as well, but I doubt there's the money for a full fleet replacement on the whole network!

If only one of EMT or XC can have bi-modes, then XC is by far the better option; EMT can be the "22x shop". Apart from the morning Nottingham-Bournemouth (and possibly a couple of other odd services), all Voyager services travel at least 81 miles under the wires on each journey, with some doing 250+. If these proposed bi-modes could be fitted with 3rd rail equipment for use in the south there's even more of a case for XC.

There's also the fact that XC bi-modes could use the still-possibly-happening Oxford-Leamington-Coventry and Leeds-York modernisation schemes, while there are no plans for anything extra EMT could use.

London-Kettering is only 73 miles. EMT's units might spend more time under the wires than XC, but even then it's probably fairly marginal.
 
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