Freight train derailed at Lewisham 24/01

[Deepgreen]

more pics from NR twitter page

I don't do Twitter, but looking at the list of 'tweets' here, I am struck by the banality of so many of the messages. This must be what occupies so many people as they walk around with their hands glued to their 'phones!

 

[najaB]

Is the crossing a fixed or switched diamond as the crossing looks like the point of derailment? (on the down slow the track "behind " the crossing has been pulled and the track in front compressed)

Is it a case of the switch moving under the train?

 

[Chris M]

Is it a case of the switch moving under the train?

If there was a switch under the train, then I'm sure that will be one of the first questions asked by the investigators.
If the answer is already known, then it is not in the public domain yet.

 

[Ploughman]

Rail Breakdown cranes are stored at Wigan Springs Branch.
One of them was sent down to Newport in S Wales about a week or so back for a derailment there.
I think there is a NWR policy of trying to eliminate them totally as nearly all recent derailments have brought in road mobile cranes no matter the remoteness of the site.

 

[island]

Southeastern now saying that Hither Green to Sidcup will not be back to normal service until Monday.

To compound pressure on local services, a 465 has died on the up line near Kidbrooke.

 

[hwl]

Rail Breakdown cranes are stored at Wigan Springs Branch.
One of them was sent down to Newport in S Wales about a week or so back for a derailment there.
I think there is a NWR policy of trying to eliminate them totally as nearly all recent derailments have brought in road mobile cranes no matter the remoteness of the site.

No chance at this site with buildings and river underneath the wagons. Didn't one of the cranes for this come from Bescot?

 

[najaB]

If there was a switch under the train, then I'm sure that will be one of the first questions asked by the investigators.

Good point, I was assuming it is a switched diamond.

 

[Chris M]

Good point, I was assuming it is a switched diamond.

Even if it is a switched diamond (I don't know) the point of derailment could have been before the switch.

 

[Bromley boy]

Southeastern now saying that Hither Green to Sidcup will not be back to normal service until Monday.

To compound pressure on local services, a 465 has died on the up line near Kidbrooke.

And caught fire by the looks of things...

 

[ScotGG]

Yep a fire apparently on a Networker but doesn't look too bad here: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1...ooke_station/?action=success#comment_17776551

Just to the left of the pic you can see the start of a tower being built by the station along with thousands of homes. That station is already seeing huge growth and no extra trains - another networker out of action wont help!

 

[MikeWh]

Just to the left of the pic you can see the start of a tower being built by the station along with thousands of homes. That station is already seeing huge growth and no extra trains - another networker out of action wont help!

That station used to serve a number of high-rise flats/tower blocks. The homes are replacing the previous concrete jungle so I'm not convinced there will be that much extra traffic overall.

 

[Deepgreen]

Impossible to tell from the photo, but I wonder if the fire was actually on the train or on the third rail/pots, etc?

SE hit yet again by a failed freight loco between Tonbridge and High Brooms! NRE states the Kidbrooke incident is simply a "broken down train".

 

[ScotGG]

That station used to serve a number of high-rise flats/tower blocks. The homes are replacing the previous concrete jungle so I'm not convinced there will be that much extra traffic overall.

It's a big increase in density and unit numbers. The other side of the tracks is seeing another tower too. 2000 at the old Ferrier and now 5000 at "Kidbrooke Village" and more over the tracks.

Plus, the old sink estate never saw much commuter traffic to central London. This is being marketed at "professionals" with prices to match.

Passenger growth is about 10-20% per year the past 5 years with many more homes still to be built including the towers.

 

[DelW]

Just found the RAIB report. The train travelled 850m at low speed with two wagons derailed (and on their sides for some distance) before the brake pipe broke.

(Apologies: I thought doublepost merging was on again.)

Thanks for the link, which answers my question, I'll read that report in more detail when I'm not at work.

I imagine it would be possible to have a monitoring device on each wagon which could initiate a warning, triggered by tilting or unusual movement, but I suppose the issue is the cost of fitting and maintaining such devices across the wagon fleet, compared with the cost of dealing with the occasional clean-ups, disruptions and repairs needed after incidents like Lewisham and Newcastle.

 

[tsr]

Impossible to tell from the photo, but I wonder if the fire was actually on the train or on the third rail/pots, etc?

SE hit yet again by a failed freight loco between Tonbridge and High Brooms! NRE states the Kidbrooke incident is simply a "broken down train".

I understand the fire was under the leading bogie, and the suspicions are that the train was defective, though I've not seen any specific confirmation of that. The situation has been reportedly compounded by passengers needing to be rounded up after self-evacuating from trains stranded behind the incident.

However, lines in the area have now been fully reopened for about 90 minutes.

 

[rebmcr]

Thanks for the link, which answers my question, I'll read that report in more detail when I'm not at work.

I imagine it would be possible to have a monitoring device on each wagon which could initiate a warning, triggered by tilting or unusual movement, but I suppose the issue is the cost of fitting and maintaining such devices across the wagon fleet, compared with the cost of dealing with the occasional clean-ups, disruptions and repairs needed after incidents like Lewisham and Newcastle.

Also the cost of delays caused by false positives, on trains otherwise fit to run.

 

[kentman]

Latest press release, also with new pictures including the crane. http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/southeastern-passengers-advised-of-changes-for-the-rest-of-the-week-as-extensive-repairs-needed-following-lewisham-freight-train-derailment

Southeastern train services will remain in place for the rest of the week after Network Rail engineers uncovered extensive damage to the railway following yesterday’s freight train partial derailment in Lewisham.

Network Rail teams have been working round-the-clock since the incident, which occurred at around 5.30am on Tuesday, and are using a combination of cranes and jacks to get the two derailed wagons back on the tracks and moved from site.

The extent of the damage caused by the wagons means that a 50m stretch of railway needs to be completely rebuilt. It is estimated that the work will take several days to complete.

 

[Flying Phil]

Given the time of the accident could low temperature have been a possible factor?

 

[eastdyke]

Latest press release, also with new pictures including the crane. http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/southeastern-passengers-advised-of-changes-for-the-rest-of-the-week-as-extensive-repairs-needed-following-lewisham-freight-train-derailment

A couple of questions on the press release:

1. Picture showing the PW used as a jacking point for the crane, quite surprised by that, surely that would not be usual?
2. Train of 18 wagons approx 1000m long?

 

[Ploughman]

Would have thought more like 18 wagons + loco approx 435m

 

[hwl]

A couple of questions on the press release:

1. Picture showing the PW used as a jacking point for the crane, quite surprised by that, surely that would not be usual?
2. Train of 18 wagons approx 1000m long?

1. On top of the bridge deck over the Ravensbourne so might be the most solid option

2. Try about 300m

 

[DJL]

If the PW is already wrecked anyway then it probably doesn't much matter from that perspective?
Unless you meant for stability of the crane rather than damage to the PW?

 

[hwl]

If the PW is already wrecked anyway then it probably doesn't much matter from that perspective?
Unless you meant for stability of the crane rather than damage to the PW?

That switched diamond wasn't involved with the derailment but was possibly fine till the crane used it as base for the stabilisers. (Down slow to Down fast across the Up Slow rather than the junction crossing). Might it have been due for replacement anyway given the junction point work had just been replaced???

 

[DJL]

Even if it was due for replacement, network rail may not have been in a position to do so just yet if the materials they need are not available etc.
So if it wasn't damaged before and there was a risk of damage it could still be a last resort if no other options type situation?

(I'm not any kind of expert so happy to be corrected)

 

[eastdyke]

1. On top of the bridge deck over the Ravensbourne so might be the most solid option

2. Try about 300m

Thanks. The 'most solid option' seems to involve imposing a point load onto a structure designed for a static and dynamic axle load.

The use of packing under the jacks would normally spread the load onto ground. Placing packing between the jacks and the railhead does not achieve the same thing.

Hope somebody did some calculations.

 

[najaB]

Might it have been due for replacement anyway given the junction point work had just been replaced???

Well, the press release does say that they're going to completely rebuild 50m of railway - that might include the switched diamond.

 

[talldave]

Southeastern's information on this disruption is pathetic. These idiots couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery. Their disruption webpage describes disruption for the rest of the week with HS1 acceptance listed. But the muppets on their Twitter feed are saying no HS1 acceptance tomorrow.

I had to buy an HS1 upgrade today despite their disruption page stating last night that HS1 acceptance would be in place today. Apparently, because they were scheduling and cancelling slow CHX services to Gravesend, that made HS1 acceptance unnecessary. Is there actually anyone competent managing this mess at SE?

 

[Twedds74]

Would have thought more like 18 wagons + loco approx 435m

273 M to be precise. Maybe a little more depending on wagon type.

 

[MikeWh]

Southeastern's information on this disruption is pathetic. These idiots couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery.

Totally agree. Information on the Dartford to Sidcup shuttle is virtually non-existant. If you turn up to Crayford wanting to catch it you just have to wait and hope. I also note that empty stock is still using the Sidcup line to get to Grove Park depot, so why oh why can't they extend the shuttles to Orpington giving passengers the option to change at Grove Park for London.

Their disruption webpage describes disruption for the rest of the week with HS1 acceptance listed. But the muppets on their Twitter feed are saying no HS1 acceptance tomorrow.

I had to buy an HS1 upgrade today despite their disruption page stating last night that HS1 acceptance would be in place today. Apparently, because they were scheduling and cancelling slow CHX services to Gravesend, that made HS1 acceptance unnecessary. Is there actually anyone competent managing this mess at SE?

Do you have a copy of the webpage stating that acceptance is in place? If you do then I'd demand a refund of the supplement, taking them to the small claims court if they refuse.

 

[ScotGG]

Terrible communications and hardly any station staff to ask is a Southeastern staple. And now another 10 years of DfT control mean change is very unlikely.