GTR Electrostar refurbishments: 377s and 387s

[Bald Rick]

I disagree.

I always found 365 first class cramped, poor seats, noisy with the compressor, and, had a rather unpleasant smell. More than once the interior doors wouldn’t work at my stop and I pretty much had to break out. In fact in their later years whenever I was catching a 365 I would choose to use standard rather than first.

 

[crablab]

365 standard seats were significantly better pitch and comfort than 700. But I don't think that was in dispute?

 

[supervc-10]

I think the southern livery still looks fairly modern which is a surprise considering it’s age.

I think the Southern Livery, particularly on the earlier 377s with ribbon glazing, is one of the classiest on the network. Give them a nice deep clean and some fresh moquette and they'll be back to fighting fit!

Regarding the 700s, as a commuter unit I don't have a problem with them. But I'd be very uncomfortable trying to do Brighton-Bedford on one. Only done a trip down to Gatwick on one and by the end the hard seats were a bit much, personally. But other than that- a very competent suburban unit.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Definitely not better than a 365.

Actually first on the 700s IMO isn’t bad at all. The whole train should have been like that, perhaps with half tables.

On your 1st point, yes I would say a 365 is right up there with the best 1st class on commuter stock.

I also agree with your 2nd point, that the whole train should've got the 1st class seats.

Back to 377's.

Doe sanyone know why the 377/6s and /7s and 387 have "700 type" seats? Has this question been covered before? - If it has, I apologise.

I think the Southern Livery, particularly on the earlier 377s with ribbon glazing, is one of the classiest on the network. Give them a nice deep clean and some fresh moquette and they'll be back to fighting fit!

Regarding the 700s, as a commuter unit I don't have a problem with them. But I'd be very uncomfortable trying to do Brighton-Bedford on one. Only done a trip down to Gatwick on one and by the end the hard seats were a bit much, personally. But other than that- a very competent suburban unit.

On your 1st point, I agree very much so.

With regards to the 700's I think as a unit they are superb, but the seats are a major let down.

 

[bramling]

I disagree.

I always found 365 first class cramped, poor seats, noisy with the compressor, and, had a rather unpleasant smell. More than once the interior doors wouldn’t work at my stop and I pretty much had to break out. In fact in their later years whenever I was catching a 365 I would choose to use standard rather than first.

Personal opinion of course, however this isn't my view. Can't say I find it cramped, seats comfortable for me, never noticed noise or smell. Must admit to having the interior door issue once or twice though, it was worse before they added buttons as originally it relied on the sensor above IIRC.

Compared to the 700 it's more secluded and private, less noise from standard, no issue with people walking through, and subdued lighting with reading lights.

 

[Bald Rick]

Doe sanyone know why the 377/6s and /7s and 387 have "700 type" seats? Has this question been covered before?

Strictly speaking, the 700s have 377/6 seats. They started it! Blame whoever in Southern specified them.

Personal opinion of course, however this isn't my view. Can't say I find it cramped, seats comfortable for me, never noticed noise or smell. Must admit to having the interior door issue once or twice though, it was worse before they added buttons as originally it relied on the sensor above IIRC.

Compared to the 700 it's more secluded and private, less noise from standard, no issue with people walking through, and subdued lighting with reading lights.

The noise is, I think, the aircon for the cab. High pitched whine, similar to the noise you hear inside an Airbus. The smell is a cross between light sick and mouldy aircon.

Can’t say I’ve ever noticed people walking through first class on a 700. Except for the occasional RPI of course.

 

[bramling]

The noise is, I think, the aircon for the cab. High pitched whine, similar to the noise you hear inside an Airbus.

Can't say I've ever noticed, I will listen out for this.

The 365s have a noise in standard, which I believe may be related to the ball vents which run along the window line. Never found it intrusive, in fact it can be soothing! Not sure this is the same thing.

Can’t say I’ve ever noticed people walking through first class on a 700. Except for the occasional RPI of course.

I have to say I find this hard to believe. Never been in the rear first whilst waiting to depart from King's Cross, or at stations where the entrance falls at one end or other of the platform, such as Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, Hatfield, Stevenage, Cambridge? It's pretty much guaranteed you'll have people board via the end doors and then walk through to standard (to be fair the 700s aren't unique in this regard, but are inferior to a 365 which doesn't have this issue).

 

[Bald Rick]

Can't say I've ever noticed, I will listen out for this.

The 365s have a noise in standard, which I believe may be related to the ball vents which run along the window line. Never found it intrusive, in fact it can be soothing! Not sure this is the same thing.



I have to say I find this hard to believe. Never been in the rear first whilst waiting to depart from King's Cross, or at stations where the entrance falls at one end or other of the platform, such as Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, Hatfield, Stevenage, Cambridge? It's pretty much guaranteed you'll have people board via the end doors and then walk through to standard (to be fair the 700s aren't unique in this regard, but are inferior to a 365 which doesn't have this issue).

I usually sit right by the cab, so I don’t notice it if it happens.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Strictly speaking, the 700s have 377/6 seats. They started it! Blame whoever in Southern specified them.

Oh really, thats interesting, I never knew that!

 

[387star]

On your 1st point, yes I would say a 365 is right up there with the best 1st class on commuter stock.

I also agree with your 2nd point, that the whole train should've got the 1st class seats.

Back to 377's.

Doe sanyone know why the 377/6s and /7s and 387 have "700 type" seats? Has this question been covered before? - If it has, I apologise.


On your 1st point, I agree very much so.

With regards to the 700's I think as a unit they are superb, but the seats are a major let down.

God's Terrible Railway (GTR) Have been doing everything on the cheap because they have a contract not a franchise.

The new fainsa ironing board seats first used on 377/6s have spread to 700,707,701,156,158,196,334,385 and 387 units although Northetn and ScotRail use improved padding. They are presumably the cheapest seat on the market meeting safety regulations

 

[221101 Voyager]

God's Terrible Railway (GTR) Have been doing everything on the cheap because they have a contract not a franchise.

The new fainsa ironing board seats first used on 377/6s have spread to 700,707,701,156,158,196,334,385 and 387 units although Northetn and ScotRail use improved padding. They are presumably the cheapest seat on the market meeting safety regulations

Sounds about right, low cost is the so-called 'best' option these days and it is very apparent in newer types of stock and even some older ones!

 

[Recessio]

I've got a feeling Recessio travels in the declassified rear first class on 700s, and has forgotten the rest of the train is lacking in seat comfort and charging plugs. It's an easy mistake to make!

You know, you're absolutely spot on there! I forgot how crap standard class is.

 

[whoosh]

You know, you're absolutely spot on there! I forgot how crap standard class is.

 

[Hadders]

My view on seating, from the GN side of GTR's operations is:

700 1st class declassified
365 standard
387 exactly the same seats in 1st and standard
700 standard

I've rarely travelled in 1st in a 365 but from what I can remember the seats were ok. For genuine standard class then the 365 layout and seating style is hard to beat. I do try to travel on services that are 365 operated rather than 700 wen I can. For example 07:21 from Stevenage in the morning rather than 07:17.

 

[thelem]

Does anyone know why the 377/6s and /7s and 387 have "700 type" seats?

Just speculating, but a lot of work was done on the 700 to make a "better" train. The seats are only attached to the floor at the wall, not at the aisle, which makes it easier to clean the floor. I can easily imagine someone who had been shown these new seats on a 700 prototype asking if they can get them on the other new trains they were ordering around the same time.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Just speculating, but a lot of work was done on the 700 to make a "better" train. The seats are only attached to the floor at the wall, not at the aisle, which makes it easier to clean the floor. I can easily imagine someone who had been shown these new seats on a 700 prototype asking if they can get them on the other new trains they were ordering around the same time.

I suppose so but that idea of easy clean stock is at the cost of passenger comfort.

 

[Hadders]

The ironing board seats in the 387s are different to those in the 700s. Although they are of the same basic design the ones used in the 387s are wider, have arm rests and are positioned slightly away from the wall of the train. This makes them (a little) more comfortable for passengers.

 

[Domh245]

They also don't (solely) cantilever from the wall - there's a great socking post in the middle of them to support it.

 

[supervc-10]

I suppose so but that idea of easy clean stock is at the cost of passenger comfort.

I feel like easy clean cantilever seating is not mutually exclusive with passenger comfort. I'd also consider cleanliness to be part of the positive passenger experience!

 

[221101 Voyager]

I feel like easy clean cantilever seating is not mutually exclusive with passenger comfort. I'd also consider cleanliness to be part of the positive passenger experience!

Also not having a sore back or numb bottom is also part of a positive passenger experience! If the train your on is late and has proper seats, at least you get there in comfort!

 

[supervc-10]

Oh I agree! My point is that cantilever seating is not mutually exclusive with passenger comfort. Put some proper seat padding into the 700's ironing boards and I'm sure the seats would be fine, whilst still having the ability to clean the floors easily.

 

[bramling]

I usually sit right by the cab, so I don’t notice it if it happens.

I had the chance to try out a 365 today as it happens, there being a bit of a “365 fest” on GN today with most or perhaps all of the Peterborough to Potters Bar service being 365 pairs. (Good opportunity for anyone who fancies a “retro” GN experience, shame they can’t borrow a pair of 317s to stick on a diagram too!).

Since March they have got quite run down, which is surprising as they were in great shape before. A lot of for example blown double glazing seals particularly on the hopper windows, prettt bad wheel flats, and the interiors of the units I was on today were all quite careworn - which is a bit odd considering these units have done almost nothing since March. Feels like they’ve been a bit sidelined. Nonetheless it was lovely to be on a “proper” train again. Seems like these might benefit from being included in any GTR refresh programme.

Anyway, I still don’t recognise your sounds or smells in first. Any irritating sound might have been drowned out by the train moving, in my case today with both windows open? Likewise couldn’t detect any smell at all apart from a slight dusty smell, which again may be a product of the units having been sitting around most of this year. 700s can have some pretty rancid smells if there’s food detritus around, the smooth floors and surfaces seem to accentuate this.

 

[AM9]

The ironing board seats in the 387s are different to those in the 700s. Although they are of the same basic design the ones used in the 387s are wider, have arm rests and are positioned slightly away from the wall of the train. This makes them (a little) more comfortable for passengers.

I seem to remember that the seats in the 29 class 377/5s that were originally delivered for TL use had seats that were firm like those on the 387s. As far as those seats being suitable for a Bedford to Brighton journey, such a journey would be a very small proportion of the total, the average trip probably being around 45-60 minutes on the longest services. The average for all 700 journeys including metro runs would likely be under 30 minutes.

 

[387star]

Whilst no sockets in this unit 377451 fresh from a refresh and very smart indeed

 

[Energy]

Whilst no sockets in this unit 377451 fresh from a refresh and very smart indeed

Do you have any photos of the unit?

 

[03_179]

Whilst no sockets in this unit 377451 fresh from a refresh and very smart indeed

That was a standard C6 overhaul.

 

[mightyena]

I seem to remember that the seats in the 29 class 377/5s that were originally delivered for TL use had seats that were firm like those on the 387s.

As I understood it, there were 23 377/5s, and they were essentially internally identical to Southern's 377/4s, just with a pantograph and associated AC gubbins installed like the /2s

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I've asked Southern nicely, they can't help right now as they don't have the photos ☹

 

[365 Networker]

I had the chance to try out a 365 today as it happens, there being a bit of a “365 fest” on GN today with most or perhaps all of the Peterborough to Potters Bar service being 365 pairs. (Good opportunity for anyone who fancies a “retro” GN experience, shame they can’t borrow a pair of 317s to stick on a diagram too!).

Since March they have got quite run down, which is surprising as they were in great shape before. A lot of for example blown double glazing seals particularly on the hopper windows, prettt bad wheel flats, and the interiors of the units I was on today were all quite careworn - which is a bit odd considering these units have done almost nothing since March. Feels like they’ve been a bit sidelined. Nonetheless it was lovely to be on a “proper” train again. Seems like these might benefit from being included in any GTR refresh programme.

Anyway, I still don’t recognise your sounds or smells in first. Any irritating sound might have been drowned out by the train moving, in my case today with both windows open? Likewise couldn’t detect any smell at all apart from a slight dusty smell, which again may be a product of the units having been sitting around most of this year. 700s can have some pretty rancid smells if there’s food detritus around, the smooth floors and surfaces seem to accentuate this.

Can’t believe I missed the ‘365 fest’! I haven’t been on one since December last year, on the last Saturday of full 365 operation. The only other sound that I can think of would be the cooling fans for the dynamic brake, it is quite loud and produces a humming sound inside. I don’t find it annoying though, I quite like it.

 

[bramling]

Can’t believe I missed the ‘365 fest’! I haven’t been on one since December last year, on the last Saturday of full 365 operation. The only other sound that I can think of would be the cooling fans for the dynamic brake, it is quite loud and produces a humming sound inside. I don’t find it annoying though, I quite like it.

There is a gentle humming sound which I’ve never actually been able to pinpoint, if it’s the same one you’re thinking of I find it quite soothing - a bit reminiscent of the MG or MA sets on older rolling stock.