GWR Class 800

[coppercapped]

Thanks. In that case, do we know how much extra the government is paying in rental costs?

The Government is not paying any leasing or rental costs to Agility Trains, the operating TOC pays Agility Trains for the completed diagrams according to a formula in the contract which has not been made public. The Government merely guarantees these payments.

The last announcement I saw a couple of months ago it was stated that the Government was still deciding whether to make a payment to Agility Trains directly to cover the extra costs for making all the trains bi-modes or to have the extra costs spread over the payments for the diagrams.

 

[themiller]

I suppose that the cost of having the engines will also depend on how long they're fitted as I understand that the fitment is only a temporary situation to overcome the lack of wires. There may be a clause in the deal which gives a rebate if the engines are subsequently re-used or sold on.

 

[gsnedders]

I suppose that the cost of having the engines will also depend on how long they're fitted as I understand that the fitment is only a temporary situation to overcome the lack of wires. There may be a clause in the deal which gives a rebate if the engines are subsequently re-used or sold on.

I presume some of this will also somewhat depend on how long the Class 800/802 production continues for, because if it continues long enough it may well be trivial to put the whole engine modules into them.

 

[ash39]

Saw what looked like vehicle no 824007 and another behind it heading down the a1 this afternoon. Presumably they landed at Tyne Dock and were heading for Newton Aycliffe. Abrail.co.uk suggests the vehicle number (if i read it correctly) is destined to be part of GWR set 800307

 

[leomartin125]

Saw what looked like vehicle no 824007 and another behind it heading down the a1 this afternoon. Presumably they landed at Tyne Dock and were heading for Newton Aycliffe. Abrail.co.uk suggests the vehicle number (if i read it correctly) is destined to be part of GWR set 800307

And the 800/3's are 9 car Class 800 IEP sets for GWR. As we haven't got any nine car sets yet, it would be good to get one, especially with EIS set in Autumn now.

 

[Typhoon_93]

Didn't see anything arriving at the factory yesterday.
A couple of questions if you don't mind.
1/ What time and where on the A1 did you see these two..?
2/ Were they with or without bogies..?

Only thing that happened at the factory in recent weeks was yesterday 800005 was fuelled so guess test track on the cards shortly.

Gareth

 

[CP165]

Does anyone know what's happening regarding GWR livery? Will vinyl be used or will they eventually paint them all?

 

[tomoufc]

The Government is not paying any leasing or rental costs to Agility Trains, the operating TOC pays Agility Trains for the completed diagrams according to a formula in the contract which has not been made public. The Government merely guarantees these payments.

The last announcement I saw a couple of months ago it was stated that the Government was still deciding whether to make a payment to Agility Trains directly to cover the extra costs for making all the trains bi-modes or to have the extra costs spread over the payments for the diagrams.

That's interesting - thanks. I don't suppose you remember where you saw this announcement?

When you say the TOC pays Agility for 'completed diagrams', what are we talking about here? Every successful use of a multiple unit in passenger operation?

 

[ash39]

Didn't see anything arriving at the factory yesterday.
A couple of questions if you don't mind.
1/ What time and where on the A1 did you see these two..?
2/ Were they with or without bogies..?

Only thing that happened at the factory in recent weeks was yesterday 800005 was fuelled so guess test track on the cards shortly.

Gareth

They looked to be without bogies. I was just south of Newcastle at around 3:30pm so I doubt they will have reached the factory much before 5-6pm given the speed they were travelling.

 

[najaB]

When you say the TOC pays Agility for 'completed diagrams', what are we talking about here? Every successful use of a multiple unit in passenger operation?

Here's my understanding of it:

In a 'traditional' lease the TOC pays for possession of a specific train for a set period of time. The lease may or may not include maintenance. Having paid for the ability to use the unit on a given day they pay the same amount regardless of if they actually use the train.

In the case of the 800s/801s the TOC pays for a train to be available to start a diagram. Agility Trains is responsible for all fuel, maintenance, etc. and may substitute one train for another as they see fit to ensure that there is a train available. If the train breaks down and doesn't complete the diagram then the TOC receives a rebate.

 

[linesider]

Azuma out and about on Thursday and Friday, 1st visit to Newcastle?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97218/2017/01/19/advanced

In Newcastle now as 5X14 and about to leave for Darlington.

 

[leomartin125]

Does anyone know what's happening regarding GWR livery? Will vinyl be used or will they eventually paint them all?

I assume Vinyl will be used to brand them all, and this work will either be done at the home depots (North Pole/Stoke Gifford/Swansea Maliphant) or be done at Newton Aycliffe at the same time as the seats receiving the final GWR design layout and setup. Ultimately, a lot to do between now and September to get these trains in service by the revised date of Autumn 2017.

 

[coppercapped]

That's interesting - thanks. I don't suppose you remember where you saw this announcement?

When you say the TOC pays Agility for 'completed diagrams', what are we talking about here? Every successful use of a multiple unit in passenger operation?

I think it was a statement made by Philip Rutnam of the DfT at the recent Transport Select Committee's hearing on the GW's electrification which was broadcast by Parliament TV two or three weeks ago. A recording might still be available, or a transcript somewhere.

Agility Trains is paid by the diagram - so in other words if a diagram is not completed they don't get paid. The details of the contract have not been released but from carefully reading what has been said it would also seem that some form of penalty would also be paid for non-fulfilment. On the other hand the critical item is the diagram, not that a particular set completes its roster, so if a train substitution were to be needed to complete the diagram Agility would not be penalised.

There are also strict requirements on the TOC to deliver the specified sets to a designated depot within a narrow time window which is also backed up by penalty payments from the TOC to Agility Trains.

This is one of the reasons why so many trains have been built. The IEP contract makes it worthwhile for Agility to buy more trains than it strictly needs to avoid loss of payment and the need to pay any penalties by not fulfilling a diagram. With trains at more than £2 million per coach, have you ever wondered why the Net Present Value of the contract is so high?

 

[MK Tom]

Can anyone tell me if there are any ECML Class 800 workings on Monday? Particularly interested in anything between Kings Cross and Grantham. Thanks.

 

[leomartin125]

Can anyone tell me if there are any ECML Class 800 workings on Monday? Particularly interested in anything between Kings Cross and Grantham. Thanks.

At the moment, the only thing that matches your description is one of the North Pole based IEP's heading up to Hertford North for ERTMS testing, as has been occuring this week. Not guaranteed to run, but there is always a chance:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97601/2017/01/23/advanced

As for anything else, the Azuma is currently performing testing in the North ECML region based out of Doncaster Carr IEP Depot.

 

[ExTankieAaron]

the 9 car will NOT be running for some time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ignore my last post. Sort of.

 

[childwallblues]

the 9 car will NOT be running for some time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ignore my last post. Sort of.

Thank you for the info.

 

[ExTankieAaron]

I think T58 is good to go to carry on testing after a complete meltdown over weekend! Should be heading out as normal tomorrow morning.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

On a side note, there's a nice bit of irony that Hornby might get their model of the IEPs released before the real thing enters service

 

[D365]

On a side note, there's a nice bit of irony that Hornby might get their model of the IEPs released before the real thing enters service

Model trains require a lot less testing than the real thing...

 

[Roast Veg]

The 395 model was released very close if not beforehand, and the simulator community has gotten there first for the 801 (sort of).

 

[fgwrich]

Looks like there is electrical interference issues with the fleet hence the lack of testing in Electric mode, while Hitachi is claiming a delay clause to the program. I'll post the rest up later (when I'm on the computer vice phone) but this is from Roger fords informed sources blog.

But then, how many sets will actually be available? Another issue with no clear answer was the possible delay to electrical testing and thus acceptance.

Route Section 3 (RS3)is the Great Western Main Line’s IEP electrified test track between Reading and Didcot. Running started in July 2016 and promptly stopped when interference issues with the Overhead Line traction power supply emerged. A second run at the end of September, with the IEP in its final electric power configuration, was also unsuccessful and since then there has been no further electrical acceptance running on RS3.

At the press briefing Hitachi said that type testing was still progressing while the company was working through the electrical interference issues with Network Rail. Yet when I asked how far back the delay to electric test running has pushed the programme, I was told ‘with the potential solutions we are looking at we don’t expect that [delayed electrical acceptance running] to have any programme impact’.

Contractually the Type Acceptance date for the five car bi-mode is 2 February 2017 – in other words, next week. And a Great Western Informed Source subsequently reported that Hitachi had claimed a 104 day delay to acceptance because of the unavailability of RS3 for electrical testing.

 

[najaB]

Looks like there is electrical interference issues with the fleet hence the lack of testing in Electric mode, while Hitachi is claiming a delay clause to the program.

Interesting. So the testing is behind schedule, but Hitachi are saying that the test facility wasn't available when it was supposed to have been. I guess the question that needs to be answered is if the two schedule slips have a cause-effect relationship. In other words, was there a period where they were ready but unable to test?

 

[coppercapped]

Interesting. So the testing is behind schedule, but Hitachi are saying that the test facility wasn't available when it was supposed to have been. I guess the question that needs to be answered is if the two schedule slips have a cause-effect relationship. In other words, was there a period where they were ready but unable to test?

Quite - but one has to ask what the 'interference' actually is. The supply comes via step-down transformers from the grid. So nothing new there - unless there is some unfortunate combination of resonances which are causing issues. Or possibly some harmonic feedback from the train which confusing the OHLE's protection circuits, or...?

All very curious.

 

[najaB]

All very curious.

Indeed it is, after all it's not like Hitachi haven't built trains for the UK market before.

 

[spark001uk]

Just spotted a return working tomorrow:
5X80 1000 IEP-PAD 1007,
1X80 1037 PAD-BPW 1206, calling RDG-SWI-BPW,
1X81 1219 BPW-PAD 1416, calling SWI-DID-RDG-PAD, and
5X81 1430 PAD-IEP 1437.

Although shown as such, I'm guessing it's not a public working (I'd be straight down there if it was, as would many others I expect!!), so how come the "1X"? Proper timing run? VIP rail bods on board?

Looking briefly at times it looks as though it's going to be running to line speed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks like there is electrical interference issues with the fleet hence the lack of testing in Electric mode, while Hitachi is claiming a delay clause to the program. I'll post the rest up later (when I'm on the computer vice phone) but this is from Roger fords informed sources blog.

The railway likes to issue PR of the "testing has been successful" type, when they really mean "testing has started", and they have no idea when the testing will allow certification.
The impression given after the single Tilehurst-Didcot test was very upbeat (simply that it happened).

Very few new types of EMU have been introduced in the UK without problems, some of them serious (eg Class 373, 390, and all the initial Juniper and Electrostar types).
Desiros were significantly easier (hence the large fleet orders), and I don't remember the 395s being especially problematic.
They are also testing the infrastructure as much as the trains.

I'm a little surprised IEP has not been certified initially on the Mk3 ECML catenary, or even the GW Paddington-Airport Jn section, but of course it's the Series 1 system it has to perform on.

 

[leomartin125]

Just spotted a return working tomorrow:
5X80 1000 IEP-PAD 1007,
1X80 1037 PAD-BPW 1206, calling RDG-SWI-BPW,
1X81 1219 BPW-PAD 1416, calling SWI-DID-RDG-PAD, and
5X81 1430 PAD-IEP 1437.

Although shown as such, I'm guessing it's not a public working (I'd be straight down there if it was, as would many others I expect!!), so how come the "1X"? Proper timing run? VIP rail bods on board?

Looking briefly at times it looks as though it's going to be running to line speed.

I've heard from the grapevine this is an exclusive run for PR and Mark Hopwood (MD) to test the EIS for the IEP. WIll probably be 800004.

1X is the highest priority possible, and is higher than a Class 9. So must be VIP's onboard. The Royal Train is a Class 1X, not sure if anything else ever is.

 

[jadmor]

On a side note, there's a nice bit of irony that Hornby might get their model of the IEPs released before the real thing enters service

Will it be bi-mode?

 

[JN114]

1X is the highest priority possible, and is higher than a Class 9. So must be VIP's onboard. The Royal Train is a Class 1X, not sure if anything else ever is.

Errr No. The Royal train hasn't been 1X01 for a very, very long time. But the X was because special restrictions apply, not because it was the Royal train per se.

Class 0-9 isn't a measure of priority, it only signifies the characteristics of the train to the signalman to allow them to confer priority. I could find you at least a dozen examples of Class 2s which have priority over Class 1s.

X is "Out of gauge or conveys special load" - IEPs are still subject to a great many restrictions on lines they can run on on the Western, so run with X headcodes to signify to the signalman that special restrictions apply.