Holyhead/Llandudno/Bangor Avanti West Coast

[Bruce Hughes]

When Avanti took over the WCML there were loads of promises. Services returning to Llandudno and better service from Holyhead and Bangor. I appreciate some additional services are returning in May. Although the refurb of the voyagers was welcome and needed. All there seems to be is a shuttle service to and from Crewe and hardly anything direct to Euston. Anglesey's Conservative MP has pushed for more direct services that only been on extra in the next timetable. It seems Avanti's poor relation is Chester and the North Wales coast.

Are there going to be more and better changes?

What are your thoughts?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're returning two Voyagers off lease, so the full hourly Chester service clearly won't return until the 80x arrive.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Direct trains to Walsall seem to have been kicked to the curb as well.

 

[higthomas]

They're returning two Voyagers off lease, so the full hourly Chester service clearly won't return until the 80x arrive.

Why?!?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Yes, 2 direct services a day is pretty poor when there used to be 6 ( I think ) The direct services from Llandudno Junction arriving in London in under three hours were a massive selling point to me when going to London.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why?!?

Treasury Funding

 

[higthomas]

Treasury Funding

I guess I shouldn't have expected any different answer. But it seems crazy that Chester has gone from hourly to 5ish a day. That must be one of the larger post-covid cuts.

AFAICT the cuts have been really random based on how many people used the trains in deepest lockdown, rather than how busy the trains are now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I generally found even pre-COVID the Chester terminators to be very quiet even at 5-car. There just isn't much demand to Chester itself, and it's a load of DMUs under the wires. Crewe has been dealt with by putting a stop in the Liverpools, and Nuneaton in I think one of the Manchesters (hence the pattern being a bit off).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Treasury Funding

Yes, but why is Chester/North Wales singled out for such deep service cuts?
Everything else is pretty much back to 2019 frequency except the Preston-Glasgow leg of the via Birmingham service, where there are other Avanti/TPE alternatives.

 

[wobman]

It looks like another busy summer for TFW trains along the N Wales coast again, it won't be Avanti getting the bad press though.
Avanti still get away with a poor service from Holyhead, even though there's full traincrew depot based there now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but why is Chester/North Wales singled out for such deep service cuts?
Everything else is pretty much back to 2019 frequency except the Preston-Glasgow leg of the via Birmingham service, where there are other Avanti/TPE alternatives.

Because Chester terminators were always very quiet. Chester isn't a big place, and there are other options from North Wales (Crewe via the shuttle, or Birmingham which is slow but cheap) in the hours when there are no through services.

 

[wobman]

I generally found even pre-COVID the Chester terminators to be very quiet even at 5-car. There just isn't much demand to Chester itself, and it's a load of DMUs under the wires. Crewe has been dealt with by putting a stop in the Liverpools, and Nuneaton in I think one of the Manchesters (hence the pattern being a bit off).

A lot of London travellers jump on the tfw services to crewe, that's the reason why the Avanti services are so quiet. Tfw are regularly running 4 car sets on the crewe shutters due to the demand.

 

[Bruce Hughes]

They're returning two Voyagers off lease, so the full hourly Chester service clearly won't return until the 80x arrive.

221142/221143 are with Avanti

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Because Chester terminators were always very quiet. Chester isn't a big place, and there are other options from North Wales (Crewe via the shuttle, or Birmingham which is slow but cheap) in the hours when there are no through services.

Worse is the way connections at Crewe (into the VT shuttles) are destroyed.
The 5-minute gap between Liverpool and Chester services at their normal times at Crewe fails the 10-minute interchange, so at Euston you are directed to the previous Manchester service for a 38-min wait.
In the up direction it's 26-min for the Liverpool.
A properly reworked timetable would improve on this (as did the connections in BR/early Virgin days).

 

[dk1]

I would say things will need to wait until sometime in 2023/24 until any major improvements happen but that’ll depend on the 805s training & rollout.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A properly reworked timetable would improve on this (as did the connections in BR/early Virgin days).

The North Wales Coast timetable is an utter mess, and a recast would certainly benefit it, not just for this reason!

 

[43055]

When Avanti took over the WCML there were loads of promises. Services returning to Llandudno and better service from Holyhead and Bangor. I appreciate some additional services are returning in May. Although the refurb of the voyagers was welcome and needed. All there seems to be is a shuttle service to and from Crewe and hardly anything direct to Euston. Anglesey's Conservative MP has pushed for more direct services that only been on extra in the next timetable. It seems Avanti's poor relation is Chester and the North Wales coast.

Are there going to be more and better changes?

What are your thoughts?

Well that is the first I have heard about a better Avanti service to Holyhead. I was a bit surprised when an extra return was added on weekday afternoons last year.

At the timetable there will be more services through to Euston with less Chester shuttles. Weekdays it will be 5 services all running through to Holyhead (2 morning, 3 evening from London). Saturdays has 5 again but 3 only go as far as Chester and Sundays look to be back to the old timetable. Interestingly there is also a new 1148 Crewe to Llandudno Junction but no return on Saturdays.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but why is Chester/North Wales singled out for such deep service cuts?

perhaps because they cost the most to run, and bring in the least revenue?

 

[paul1609]

Let's face it with circa 200k entries and exits a year the only reason that Holyhead still has any intercity type services is the politics associated with the Irish ferry. If it was a service based purely on commercial grounds it would be an all stations dmu shuttle to Bangor or Llandudno at best.

 

[Flying Snail]

Let's face it with circa 200k entries and exits a year the only reason that Holyhead still has any intercity type services is the politics associated with the Irish ferry. If it was a service based purely on commercial grounds it would be an all stations dmu shuttle to Bangor or Llandudno at best.

Hardly any of the ferries have connections with the remaining (even pre-covid) IC services in Holyhead, more often than not ferry passengers end up with a long wait for a 2 car ATW service calling at every shack along the coast.

If there were any political capital behind the rail-ship link then the very long running late service connecting with the 02.xx ferry departures would not have been allowed to have been intentionally broken by ATW and kept that way for over a decade. Nor would the connection from the incoming night ferries have been cancelled leaving passengers with 4 hour waits in a miserable Holyhead.

 

[krus_aragon]

Yes, 2 direct services a day is pretty poor when there used to be 6 ( I think ) The direct services from Llandudno Junction arriving in London in under three hours were a massive selling point to me when going to London.

Moreover, the two direct London services a day we've had recently is half of what was provided by BR: my 1993/94 timetable shows four Intercity services to/from London (including a connection with the night ferry, which has long since bitten the dust).

At least the May timetable promises a return to four (though not as evenly spaced throughout the day as in the 90s, and not bearing any relation to the ferry times).

Interestingly there is also a new 1148 Crewe to Llandudno Junction but no return on Saturdays.

A glance at Realtime Trains indicates that it runs ECS to Chester. From what I can tell, it couples there to a service from London, and they return together to Euston to form the 1710 departure.

 

[6Gman]

Because Chester terminators were always very quiet. Chester isn't a big place, and there are other options from North Wales (Crewe via the shuttle, or Birmingham which is slow but cheap) in the hours when there are no through services.

Well "quiet" / "very quiet" are subjective terms but I have certainly had to stand on Chester-Euston trains from Chester.

 

[L401CJF]

The weekday morning Avanti 0835 off Chester through to Crewe is often a 5 car fully seated occasionally standees and has been for some time. Think it comes from Holyhead. The one an hour in front was a 10car last time I caught it and goes right through to Euston. If i remember rightly its a 5car from the coast and a 5car from Wrexham (?) Which join at Chester. I seem to recall the Holyhead set well loaded last time I used it, the Wrexham set not so much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The weekday morning Avanti 0835 off Chester through to Crewe is often a 5 car fully seated occasionally standees and has been for some time. Think it comes from Holyhead. The one an hour in front was a 10car last time I caught it and goes right through to Euston. If i remember rightly its a 5car from the coast and a 5car from Wrexham (?) Which join at Chester. I seem to recall the Holyhead set well loaded last time I used it, the Wrexham set not so much.

Yes, I'm suggesting it is the Chester "shorts" that are not well-used. The ones from Holyhead seem to be very well-used.

 

[philosopher]

Yes, but why is Chester/North Wales singled out for such deep service cuts?
Everything else is pretty much back to 2019 frequency except the Preston-Glasgow leg of the via Birmingham service, where there are other Avanti/TPE alternatives.

The London to Birmingham services are still not back to 2019 service levels: two trains instead of three trains per hour in the May 2022 timetable.

 

[L401CJF]

Yes, I'm suggesting it is the Chester "shorts" that are not well-used. The ones from Holyhead seem to be very well-used.

Sorry I was referring to something else, yes the Crewe-Chester shuttles are a bit pointless really especially as there are gaps of 2hrs at some points in the day

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry I was referring to something else, yes the Crewe-Chester shuttles are a bit pointless really especially as there are gaps of 2hrs at some points in the day

Not the shuttles, the Chester-Eustons that don't start at Holyhead (and vice versa). The shuttles are useful, though I'd rather see a better pattern to Crewe.

 

[Bikeman78]

Because Chester terminators were always very quiet. Chester isn't a big place, and there are other options from North Wales (Crewe via the shuttle, or Birmingham which is slow but cheap) in the hours when there are no through services.

The problem is that the hourly TFW shuttle gets overloaded. Also the connections in and out of the Holyhead trains at Chester are very poor. Perhaps Avanti could run a Crewe to Chester shuttle on the opposite half hour to TFW?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The London to Birmingham services are still not back to 2019 service levels: two trains instead of three trains per hour in the May 2022 timetable.

Those will return in Dec 22 though too three trains an hour.

 

[berneyarms]

Hardly any of the ferries have connections with the remaining (even pre-covid) IC services in Holyhead, more often than not ferry passengers end up with a long wait for a 2 car ATW service calling at every shack along the coast.

If there were any political capital behind the rail-ship link then the very long running late service connecting with the 02.xx ferry departures would not have been allowed to have been intentionally broken by ATW and kept that way for over a decade. Nor would the connection from the incoming night ferries have been cancelled leaving passengers with 4 hour waits in a miserable Holyhead.

That is not quite true in the new timetable.

The key daytime sailings for both Stena and Irish Ferries have Avanti connections:

The 14:05 Irish Ferries Ulysses sailing from Holyhead to Dublin connects out of the 09:10 Euston-Holyhead, and the 14:45 Stena Adventurer sailing from Holyhead to Dublin connects out of the new 10:10 Euston-Holyhead service.

The 08:05 Irish Ferries Ulysses sailing from Dublin to Holyhead and the 08:15 Stena Adventurer sailing from Dublin both connect into the 12:53 Holyhead-Crewe and onward to London.

The overnight market, using the sailings currently operated by those two ships died years ago, slain by the arrival of Ryanair. That market is frankly dead as a dodo and is unlikely to return.

There is a market for Sail/Rail but it is more focussed on those key daytime sailings.

The other Irish Ferries sailings operated by the Epsilon doesn't take foot passengers, so they can be eliminated from the list.

The overnight Stena Estrid sailing from Dublin at 02:15 does not have a bus connection into it at Dublin Port, but does connect into the 06:55 Avanti service to Crewe, and the 09:00 sailing to Dublin connects out of the 06:25 Avanti service from Crewe.

The afternoon 14:45 Stena Estrid sailing from Dublin is one of the few that has a TfW connection, but that has an Avanti service behind it from Bangor onwards to Crewe, and while the 20:30 sailing to Dublin connects out of the 15:06 TfW service from Birmingham International, that sailing has no public transport connections at Dublin port arriving there around midnight, which makes it rather unattractive.

The Irish Ferries SWIFT sailings do all connect into/out of TfW services, although one of those is operated by a Mark 4 set.

Yes, 2 direct services a day is pretty poor when there used to be 6 ( I think ) The direct services from Llandudno Junction arriving in London in under three hours were a massive selling point to me when going to London.

Just to be clear the new timetable has four workings across the North Wales coast to London Euston:

04:48 Holyhead-Euston
05:51 Holyhead-Euston
13:57 Holyhead-Euston
14:50 Holyhead-Euston

There are a further three services from Holyhead to Crewe, and one from Bangor to Crewe.

It has five in the opposite direction:

09:10 Euston-Holyhead
10:10 Euston-Holyhead
16:10 Euston-Bangor
18:10 Euston-Holyhead
19:10 Euston-Holyhead

There are a further two services from Crewe to Holyhead.