HOW do trains 'turn around' at St. Pancras

[yorksrob]

Third (centre) release roads were quite common - Victoria had at least one, as did Liverpool Street.

Not to mention smaller terminals such as Eastbourne and Bexhill West.

 

[misterredmist]

For the record, from the early days, loco-release cross-overs existed between the "berth" end of certain terminal platforms, but to be os use, this required the adjacent platform to be empty.

IIRC this system was used at Man-Picc for the loco hauled trains running to and from Euston many moons ago....

 

[Western Lord]

In at least one case (in Canada, but an Amtrak train) it still happened not very long ago, but with the turning taking place before arrival, with passengers on board. In 2005 I arrived in Montreal on the Amtrak train from New York, and shortly before the end of the journey it turned left (in the direction of Toronto) before reversing into the station.

The reason that Amtrak trains reverse into Montreal Central station is that diesels are not allowed into the enclosed (i.e. built over) part of the station. The south end of the platforms are in the open air and that is the only place diesels are allowed.

 

[najaB]

I have no idea whether any still exist other than possibly on heritage railways, but I am sure old photos will have some.

Edinburgh Waverley between platforms 16 and 17.

 

[GW43125]

Third (centre) release roads were quite common - Victoria had at least one, as did Liverpool Street.

Sheerness had one until quite recently, or was that not for loco release?

 

[najaB]

Not heard this term before - is this how the Kennington loop on the LU Northern line should be described?

I suppose so, yes.

 

[duffield]

Another method of releasing a 'trapped' loco is the traverser - a short section of track which can be moved sideways. The main example in the UK was at Birmingham Moor Street.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_table#Terminal_stations

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Was it very common for a station pilot/shunter to (after passengers have disembarked) shunt the coaches into an empty platform, releasing the loco?

 

[daikilo]

Was it very common for a station pilot/shunter to (after passengers have disembarked) shunt the coaches into an empty platform, releasing the loco?

I have no idea on how "common" it was to shunt just to release a loco, but it used to be regular at Paddington for the "Oxford and Newbury commuters" to be shunted out to Old Oak for cleaning and until the evening turns. These were hauled by either one of the shunters or whatever mainline loco was not needed for traffic. The opposite happened in the evening.

Note that I think I have seen coaches been shunted out of a platform and into a tunnel at Kings Cross to release the inbound Deltic and the coaches then returned to the same platform in King Cross. This may have been an exceptional working.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Edinburgh Waverley between platforms 16 and 17.

Isn't that at non-terminal platforms though? I.e. to allow long platforms to be used by multiple short trains? The same applies at Leeds between platforms 11 and 12.

 

[Ianno87]

IIRC this system was used at Man-Picc for the loco hauled trains running to and from Euston many moons ago....

There is still one present in Platforms 5/6 - other platforms facilities were got rid of many years ago.

The Platform 5/6 one got very occasional use in latter pre-Pendolino/Voyager days if there was a DVT/TDM fault (West Coast services) or they were short of a fresh loco (XC services).

 

[3141]

In at least one case I seem to remember that the train went round 4 sides of the triangle rather than two .

Another example of the way they always do it bigger and better on the other side of the Atlantic!

 

[AlterEgo]

Milano Centrale has a balloon loop clearly visible on Google Earth.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Was it very common for a station pilot/shunter to (after passengers have disembarked) shunt the coaches into an empty platform, releasing the loco?

Was very common at Penzance prior to HST introduction. The 08 shunter would pull the stock out to a siding just beyond the platforms, the loco would then proceed to Long Rock depot then the 08 would propel the coaches back into the platform.

 

[3141]

Would you want to be the person answering the 'Please explain.' request if someone had slipped and broken their arm?

Now that it's been confirmed that the issue was with the locomotives, let's consider the point you've raised a bit further.

I totally agree that rules are (in most cases) there for good reasons and should be followed. But the circumstances of the broken-down trains stuck in the Tunnel were highly unusual, even if they weren't quite a life-and-death emergency. It was very important to get them and their passengers out as quickly as possible. Sending the two locos to be trapped at St. Pancras meant they could not be used to rescue any other trains.

The answer would have been to make sure the drivers were instructed to enter the Ashford platform at 5 mph. If there was a potential problem about getting off the coaches - which I assume there wasn't in this instance, but there might be in the circumstances of a different incident somewhere else - you get staff in to supervise and help passengers at the doorways, and ensure announcements are made to tell passengers that there are possible risks. If I was a manager in this sort of situation I'd expect to be capable of organising these things. There are very infrequent occasions when the circumstances are so out-of-the-ordinary that equally out-of-the-ordinary actions are necessary, and the people running the show ought to have enough intelligence to recognise that.

I will now try to take shelter from the H&S onslaught!

 

[GW43125]

Isn't that at non-terminal platforms though? I.e. to allow long platforms to be used by multiple short trains? The same applies at Leeds between platforms 11 and 12.

16 and 17 are bay platforms. As are 3,4 and 12-18.

The platforms you're thinking of are 1=20; 2=19; 7=11; 10 into the Through Loop
-----8----- <--EAST--WEST-->
-----9-----
THRU\-/10-
---7-/-\11-
3&4|||12-18
--2-\-/-19-
--1-/-\-20-
(= signs denote where a platform is a continuation, ie 1 and 20 are one long section but have a crossover between them). I tried (and failed) to draw crossovers.

 

[najaB]

Isn't that at non-terminal platforms though? I.e. to allow long platforms to be used by multiple short trains? The same applies at Leeds between platforms 11 and 12.

16 and 17 are bay platforms.

Edit: Must remember to read to the end of the thread before replying. GW43125 explained it much better than me.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Many thanks everyone.

I must be mistaken but I thought I travelled to london on a train with a loco at the front - rather older stock. But I must be wrong.

Both Kings Cross and Liverpool St still have longer distance trains that are loco hauled but both use the 'push-pull' system where the loco stays permanently coupled at one end and the carriage at the other end has a driving cab that lets the train be driven from that end remotely with the loco pushing from the other end.
Relatively few passenger trains anywhere in the world retain the system of an engine being coupled up at the front and having to be changed over at the end of the journey.

 

[GW43125]

16 and 17 are bay platforms.

Edit: Must remember to read to the end of the thread before replying. GW43125 explained it much better than me.

I've even drawn a little diagram for you :P

 

[Starmill]

They've done it to 158's, which I imagine would be more difficult due to the presence of engines and things on the underside, so a mk3 should be easy.

Incidentally, I rarely see Northern 158 loos locked out of use. Is this down to good organisation of tanking, or are the retrofitted ones just a better design than the modern hi Tec ones, I wonder.

The Greater Anglia Mark 3s also have tanks. Indeed, quite the number of Mark 2s do now too. Finally, as the Northern 158s are being refurbished, the toilet fitings are being replaced with a new vacuum loo.

 

[GW43125]

Both Kings Cross and Liverpool St still have longer distance trains that are loco hauled but both use the 'push-pull' system where the loco stays permanently coupled at one end and the carriage at the other end has a driving cab that lets the train be driven from that end remotely with the loco pushing from the other end.
Relatively few passenger trains anywhere in the world retain the system of an engine being coupled up at the front and having to be changed over at the end of the journey.

Does anywhere (other than the sleepers) actually still have to do that? I know of a few that are loco-hauled but any running-round etc is done in a depot.

 

[yorksrob]

Finally, as the Northern 158s are being refurbished, the toilet fitings are being replaced with a new vacuum loo.

That's interesting. I'm not sure what benefit a vacuum loo provides over the current newish stainless steel water based ones. I prefer the water ones, anyway.

Have they done anything about getting rid of those useless hand dryers that have blighted passengers for a quarter of a century !

 

[6Gman]

'dump toilet waste straight onto the track'. doesn't that present a health hazard for track maintenance staff?

Yes. And passengers at stations on occasion.

Pretty unpleasant for depot maintenance staff too, working underneath.

Which is why it's being phased out.

 

[6Gman]

Some prewar trains in Britain had special observation carriages, like this one, with end windows at just one end. Not only did the locomotive have to be turned at the end of the journey, but the observation carriage had also to be turned and moved to the other end of the train.

Which war was that?

I'd remind the Hon Gent that observation cars were still running in the 1960s. I travelled on one!

 

[6Gman]

IIRC this system was used at Man-Picc for the loco hauled trains running to and from Euston many moons ago....

Was certainly practice for the North Country Continental since the incoming 37 had to work the return!

 

[181]

The reason that Amtrak trains reverse into Montreal Central station is that diesels are not allowed into the enclosed (i.e. built over) part of the station. The south end of the platforms are in the open air and that is the only place diesels are allowed.

That would make sense, but would it mean that all long-distance trains had to reverse in? My recollection from my earlier visit to Canada is of running straight in on arrival both from Halifax and from Quebec City -- the 'reverse arrivals' that I remember took place elsewhere in the country. It was a long time ago, though, so I could be misremembering. (I think the Quebec train was quite short, so the locomotive wouldn't have had to go very far into the station).

 

[edwin_m]

Not heard this term before - is this how the Kennington loop on the LU Northern line should be described?

Yes. To distinguish them from crossing or overtaking loops I guess.

A lot of continental tramways use trams with cabs at only one end and doors on only one side, so have to have balloon loops at termini and any intermediate turnback points. Blackpool also has several despite all vehicles being bi-directional, so you can if you wish see a balloon on a balloon loop...

 

[RichmondCommu]

There is no 'finite cut off date' for the use of HSTs. Two fleets will be overhauled in the coming years for further use by Scotrail and GWR.

Has this been confirmed as a definite by GWR or is it still just speculation?

 

[D1009]

Has this been confirmed as a definite by GWR or is it still just speculation?

Surely Wabtec at Doncaster are already working on the first coaches, unless I've been misinformed.

 

[43096]

Has this been confirmed as a definite by GWR or is it still just speculation?

The fact that four GWR trailers are at Wabtec for conversion, plus 43194 there as well (to have the interlock mods done), is a bit of a giveaway, is it not?