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Incident at Talerddig, Wales - 21/10/2024

12LDA28C

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What you are actually saying here is that this line can not be operated safely under current conditions. A safe method of operation would require one train to be detected as halted in a loop before the crossing train is released into the section to that loop. Looking at timetables from Caersws to Machynlleth, this would require a quarter- hour or so wait for one of the trains, which might well make the service unviable. I suppose an alternative would be a really restrictive speed limit, the descending train literally crawling from the summit into the loop at a rate which would make sliding through vanishingly unlikely. Good old ALARP again.

Wheel slide can happen at any speed, even 5mph so your 'really restrictive speed limit' would potentially provide no additional protection. Also, train speed can actually increase under sliding with the wheels not rotating, especially on a falling gradient.
 
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edwin_m

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What you are actually saying here is that this line can not be operated safely under current conditions. A safe method of operation would require one train to be detected as halted in a loop before the crossing train is released into the section to that loop. Looking at timetables from Caersws to Machynlleth, this would require a quarter- hour or so wait for one of the trains, which might well make the service unviable. I suppose an alternative would be a really restrictive speed limit, the descending train literally crawling from the summit into the loop at a rate which would make sliding through vanishingly unlikely. Good old ALARP again.
Actually not ALARP at all.
 

vikingsmb

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would rust have a impact on adhesion? as the line is only used by 158s I think, as they should divert a few freight flows over it to keep the rails polished so to speak
 

zwk500

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would rust have a impact on adhesion? as the line is only used by 158s I think, as they should divert a few freight flows over it to keep the rails polished so to speak
How do you divert freight flows down a dead-ended line, without making things massively more expensive for everybody? Rust on the railhead shouldn't be a problem with the passenger service on the Cambrian line, it's not like it gets 1 train a week or something.

NR run specific departmental services which clean the railhead and apply additional adhesion where necessary (Railhead Treatment Trains or RHTTs). They run to regular patterns and I think one had run over Talerdigg quite recently before this incident.
 
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would rust have a impact on adhesion? as the line is only used by 158s I think, as they should divert a few freight flows over it to keep the rails polished so to speak
I'm no expert but would have thought that a rusty surface would offer greater adhesion than a polished one?

However, speculative stuff like this will probably get the thread locked....
 

Llanigraham

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would rust have a impact on adhesion? as the line is only used by 158s I think, as they should divert a few freight flows over it to keep the rails polished so to speak

Our/this line seems to have no problem keeping the rails clear of rust running 158's.Whilst they might be a bit coloured before the first train each day, they are soon cleared after the second and third have used it.
And I'm not sure where you think they are going to divert freight from, considering that the line only goes to Machynlleth, Aberystwyth and Pwllheli. Are you confusing it with the Heart of Wales Line that passes between Llanelli and Craven Arms?
 

Llanigraham

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How do you divert freight flows down a dead-ended line, without making things massively more expensive for everybody? Rust on the railhead shouldn't be a problem with the passenger service on the Cambrian line, it's not like it gets 1 train a week or something.

NR run specific departmental services which clean the railhead and apply additional adhesion where necessary (Railhead Treatment Trains or RHTTs). They run to regular patterns and I think one had run over Talerdigg quite recently before this incident.
It had in run both directions the night before and was due to follow the last service that night.
 

Railsigns

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Although less issues with Axle Counters, which I believe this line has.
Axle counters are the primary means of train detection for the ETCS, but the line still has many track circuits at level crossings.
 

sharpener

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As you say, UK requirements require the two switch rails to be coupled together with at least two stretcher bars, in case one fails. The claw lock will not work if you do that:

Thanks. It is kind of what I originally envisaged. To overcome the objections stemming from the UK regs how about

(i) rather than measuring the displacement of the open switch measure the force arising from the wheels trying to close it? Then you can have as many stretcher bars as you want. As an alternative to using electrical transducers the force could be measured by the rise in hydraulic pressure somewhere appropriate in the system.

(ii) having one or more treadles which are operated by wheels approaching from the wrong direction to release the FPL? In the facing direction they would not be actuated by the train as it would be following the correct trajectory.
 

Annetts key

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So, the current Network Rail favourite point operating equipment is the HPSS (High Performance Switch System) (also known as the HPSA, High Performance Switch Actuator) which uses a worm drive, which in turn is locked by two independent brakes. This ensures that once the machine has completed its movement of the switch rails, no vibration will allow the switch rails to move under a train. Hence no separate FPL system is needed. Because force at the switch rail cannot turn the screw of the worm drive, hence the switch is locked in place.

The electric motor is also a special type that is immune to DC and mains frequency AC current.

In order for this to be made run-throughable, some major redesign would be needed.

The other favourite point operating type (that I hate, but that’s another subject) is the RCPL (Rail Clamp Point Lock) or clamp lock. And the variations of this (IBCL in-bearer, Hy-Drive).

These have a physical moveable clamp that clamps the switch rail to the fixed (stock) rail. As the pivot of the clamp is attached to the switch rail and the clamp engages against a lock plate in the clamp lock body, which in turn is bolted to the fixed (stock) rail, once the clamp has been pushed into the clamp position, it’s not going anywhere. Even if the hydraulic pressure in the ram, hose or power pack falls. The clamp stays in position unless the drive lock slide moves by hydraulic pressure in the opposite direction ram.

Again, the objective is to ensure that the points do not move unless commanded to do so.

Again, to make this run-throughable, some major redesign would be needed.

I honestly don’t think Network Rail is going to change either of these designs (or any of the other types of point operating equipment) just in case an occasional unauthorised movement runs through power operated points.

Treadles are mechanical devices that require rather a lot of maintenance. And in any event, part of the purpose of an interlocking is to prevent points from being moved while a train is on or near them. So the interlocking would need radical changes as well.

Oh, and I don’t know if you know, but FPLs (or equivalent mechanisms) are required by law for facing points on passenger lines. This came about from a board of inquiry after an accident many years ago (sorry I don’t know the details).

It would take rather a lot of money and many years to get the railway to even think about developing a prototype of what you are suggesting. Generations of thinking and practice would need to be overturned.







 

alxndr

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With track circuits the current monitoring system which is often installed to aide in identifying emerging issues and fault finding can also identify where poor railhead conditions mean the train fails to occupy the track circuit. Often this is just for a few milliseconds, and this time of year tends to be due to leaf contamination.

I wonder how strong the correlation is between poor adhesion and poor railhead conditions in electrical terms and, if there is a strong correlation, whether there would be any benefit in installing track circuits with monitoring for the purpose of identifying areas with poor adhesion in known problem areas.
 

Harpo

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having one or more treadles which are operated by wheels approaching from the wrong direction to release the FPL? In the facing direction they would not be actuated by the train as it would be following the correct trajectory.
Needs to be a fiendishly clever piece of kit to guarantee it won't WSF, actuating in the right direction and unlocking the FPL underneath a moving train in the facing direction.

That's going to cost a lot to be ultra safe, design, build, install and maintain in x thousand locations at £x x thousand per unit. So tens or hundreds of £millions??

A few busted point ends sound much cheaper.
 

edwin_m

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With track circuits the current monitoring system which is often installed to aide in identifying emerging issues and fault finding can also identify where poor railhead conditions mean the train fails to occupy the track circuit. Often this is just for a few milliseconds, and this time of year tends to be due to leaf contamination.

I wonder how strong the correlation is between poor adhesion and poor railhead conditions in electrical terms and, if there is a strong correlation, whether there would be any benefit in installing track circuits with monitoring for the purpose of identifying areas with poor adhesion in known problem areas.
I understand that when the weather is wet the adhesion is worse but there's no major problem with track circuit detection, but when it's dry it's the other way round. Alerting for marginal track circuit detection may have benefit to warn of impending non-detection but it probably isn't a reliable predictor of poor adhesion.

There have been many research projects over the years to manage adhesion, including things like detecting excessive WSP activity and warning following trains. But I suspect the starting point for this investigation will be why the existing measures (on-train sanders and rail head treatment trains) weren't effective in this case.
Needs to be a fiendishly clever piece of kit to guarantee it won't WSF, actuating in the right direction and unlocking the FPL underneath a moving train in the facing direction.

That's going to cost a lot to be ultra safe, design, build, install and maintain in x thousand locations at £x x thousand per unit. So tens or hundreds of £millions??

A few busted point ends sound much cheaper.
A run-through of points isn't a primary safety issue as it's highly unlikely to directly injure anybody (although there are downstream safety risks if it blocks the line and leads to things like self-evacuation from stranded trains). So it would be very difficult on safety grounds to introduce something that introduces several potential significant hazards just to mitigate it.
 

a_c_skinner

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Upthread someone asks how effective sanding would have been but (with the obvious apology) I can't find a good reply. Following on from this will there be records of when the sanders were tested and is there a rule for this. A member pointed out that if prepared in a platform the sanders cannot be tested which seems unsatisfactory. If sanding is effective the testing of the equipment seems crucial.
 

12LDA28C

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Upthread someone asks how effective sanding would have been but (with the obvious apology) I can't find a good reply. Following on from this will there be records of when the sanders were tested and is there a rule for this. A member pointed out that if prepared in a platform the sanders cannot be tested which seems unsatisfactory. If sanding is effective the testing of the equipment seems crucial.

It appears that TfW may have withdrawn some units from service today to ensure the sanders are working, meaning no TfW service between Shrewsbury and Birmingham.
 

matchmaker

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Upthread someone asks how effective sanding would have been but (with the obvious apology) I can't find a good reply. Following on from this will there be records of when the sanders were tested and is there a rule for this. A member pointed out that if prepared in a platform the sanders cannot be tested which seems unsatisfactory. If sanding is effective the testing of the equipment seems crucial.
As an example of faulty sanders causing a serious accident, look at the Glasgow Queen Street accident of October 1928. The sanders on the loco of an outgoing service were faulty. Tho loco started slipping badly on the 1 in 41 gradient and, as it was in a tunnel, the driver was unaware that the train was actually sliding backwards! It slid back into a shunting movement and 3 people died in the collision.
 

35B

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Upthread someone asks how effective sanding would have been but (with the obvious apology) I can't find a good reply. Following on from this will there be records of when the sanders were tested and is there a rule for this. A member pointed out that if prepared in a platform the sanders cannot be tested which seems unsatisfactory. If sanding is effective the testing of the equipment seems crucial.
We don't know, because we don't have the detailed analysis. The RAIB's statements suggest sanding is likely to be a major factor, but we need to wait for the report.

If the preliminary finding of defective sanders is correct, it will be interesting to know what is said about why they were defective - and what implications that may have for units at the start of the day. However, the unit in question had been in service all day, yet the incident was very late in the day. That makes me hesitant to make any link between inspection regime and the events that evening without much deeper knowledge of what happened that day.
 

43096

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We don't know, because we don't have the detailed analysis. The RAIB's statements suggest sanding is likely to be a major factor, but we need to wait for the report.
I think we can be certain that sanding (or lack of) is a major factor otherwise RAIB wouldn’t have made mention in their initial update. It has also been stated elsewhere that TfW issued a NIR (National Incident Report) about blocking of 158 sanders within days of the accident.
If the preliminary finding of defective sanders is correct, it will be interesting to know what is said about why they were defective - and what implications that may have for units at the start of the day. However, the unit in question had been in service all day, yet the incident was very late in the day. That makes me hesitant to make any link between inspection regime and the events that evening without much deeper knowledge of what happened that day.
The devil will be in the detail of when and how the sanders became blocked.
 

edwin_m

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Upthread someone asks how effective sanding would have been but (with the obvious apology) I can't find a good reply. Following on from this will there be records of when the sanders were tested and is there a rule for this. A member pointed out that if prepared in a platform the sanders cannot be tested which seems unsatisfactory. If sanding is effective the testing of the equipment seems crucial.
I've commented several times above regarding the effectiveness of sanders. There was also a RAIB report a few years back about an overrun of several miles somewhere on Southern/Southeastern when the sand had run out. Sorry can't find and link it right now.
 

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If the preliminary finding of defective sanders is correct, it will be interesting to know what is said about why they were defective - and what implications that may have for units at the start of the day. However, the unit in question had been in service all day, yet the incident was very late in the day. That makes me hesitant to make any link between inspection regime and the events that evening without much deeper knowledge of what happened that day.
The question is did the train leave it's overnight stabling location with sander pipe(s) blocked already, or did they become blocked during the day's operations. If the latter that's worrying and the mechanism of that needs to be understood and mitigated.

I fully agree with RSSB that UK operators are 'missing a trick' regarding magnetic track brakes for 'assured stopping' in an emergency. It is interesting that new tram trains entering public service soon for TfW on South Wales Metro will have these brakes, and they will operate in part over NR infrastructure, as will the new rolling stock for T&W Metro, also equipped with MTB.
 

bahnause

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The question is did the train leave it's overnight stabling location with sander pipe(s) blocked already, or did they become blocked during the day's operations. If the latter that's worrying and the mechanism of that needs to be understood and mitigated.

I fully agree with RSSB that UK operators are 'missing a trick' regarding magnetic track brakes for 'assured stopping' in an emergency. It is interesting that new tram trains entering public service soon for TfW on South Wales Metro will have these brakes, and they will operate in part over NR infrastructure, as will the new rolling stock for T&W Metro, also equipped with MTB.
Doesn't that depend on whether the sanders are mandatory or just a nice to have? All our vehicles have sanders, but these are only checked during maintenance and a failure is not relevant from an operational point of view. However, the majority of them are mostly intended for accelerating and not for braking.

Is the infrastructure / signalling ready for magnetic track brakes?
 

Purple Train

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I've commented several times above regarding the effectiveness of sanders. There was also a RAIB report a few years back about an overrun of several miles somewhere on Southern/Southeastern when the sand had run out. Sorry can't find and link it right now.
Stonegate in 2010 with a 375; it ran away for three miles. A summary, and the link to the full report, can be found here.
Shortly after 08:00 hrs on 8 November 2010, a passenger train running from London Charing Cross to Hastings failed to stop at Stonegate station in East Sussex. The train ran for a further 2.45 miles (3.94 km) with the emergency brake applied, passing the level crossing at Crowhurst Bridge before coming to a stop 3.22 miles (5.18 km) after first applying the brakes.
It is likely that the train failed to stop at Stonegate station because there was almost certainly no sand in the sand hoppers at the leading end. If sand had been present, the train braking system would have deposited sand onto the rail head, improving the available adhesion and allowing the train to stop in a much shorter distance.
Apologies for messing up the quote tags, my phone doesn't like them!
 
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TurboMan

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Doesn't that depend on whether the sanders are mandatory or just a nice to have? All our vehicles have sanders, but these are only checked during maintenance and a failure is not relevant from an operational point of view. However, the majority of them are mostly intended for accelerating and not for braking.
If the unit is fitted with sanding equipment for braking (as 158s are) then it's a rule book requirement that the sanding equipment that will be at the leading end of the unit at any point during the day's diagram must be operational or the unit must not leave the depot. If the driver notices that the sanding equipment has become defective in service and they believe they will have difficulty stopping without it (i.e. because there are low railhead adhesion conditions) then they must stop and report to the signaller immediately.
 

rower40

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Is the infrastructure / signalling ready for magnetic track brakes?
Or one could ask - is the infrastructure / signalling ready for trains that slide past a red signal (or limit of ETCS movement authority) and don't slow down noticeably in the next 900 metres?
If the track brake were "emergency only" then the potential interference with (say) track circuit operation would be a second-order risk at worst. Once the train had come to a stand and the track brake switched off, then the track circuit would start working again.
 

MarkyT

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Is the infrastructure / signalling ready for magnetic track brakes?
From https://www.rssb.co.uk/research-catalogue/CatalogueItem/S189 (from 2014 - registered only).
Background
Electromagnetic track brakes are a form of brake that use the running rail as part of the brake, thereby being independent of wheel to rail adhesion, either through contact in the case of magnetic track brakes (MTBs) or as a non-contacting pole piece in the case of an eddy-current track brakes (ECTBs).

Key Findings
Electromagnetic track brakes provide normal levels of retardation for heavy rail, however there are issues associated with both brake types, mainly damages caused to railway infrastructure, which has limited their widespread use. On heavy rail, MTBs are used solely for emergency braking, and ECTBs are only used for service braking on Deutsche Bahn’s (DB’s) ICE3 rolling stock and on specific routes.

MTBs interact directly with the railhead, and the retardation force is only produced by mechanical scrubbing. Therefore such brakes are not totally independent of the adhesion conditions.

Repeated MTB passage at any speed, especially at high speeds, could cause damage to the railhead and subsequently require replacement of the rails. Hence, after MTB use, the railhead and track may have to be inspected and assessed.

Metallic debris from MTB passage that is deposited onto the railhead, is reported to have the potential to deteriorate the electrical insulation performance of the insulated rail joints (IRJs) by making bridges over the IRJs. Electromagnetic compatibility with rail side equipment is also considered to be an issue with the use of MTBs.

The braking force of an ECTB does not depend on the condition of the rail surface. This means, no wear and low maintenance, noiseless braking, and the brake force does not depend on friction coefficient. However, there are electromagnetic compatibility issues, and rail heating and pulling effects associated with the use of ECTBs.

In terms of electromagnetic compatibility, manufactures are able to offer ECTB compatible rail side equipment, though this may require infrastructure managers to replace or adapt existing equipment.

To address the rail pulling effect, DB de-energises ECTBs at speeds under 50 km/h, which is when the pulling effect of ECTBs exceeds the permitted pulling force on the rail. Currently DB certifies ECTB use only on slab track because of its ability to resist the additional track stresses from uplift.

For the rail heating effect, two solutions are proposed: management of traffic on sections with high braking frequencies, and new design rules to ensure track stability, e.g. increasing ballast profile.
Note I'm only advocating the MTB type for classic heavy rail emergency use in the UK. The IRJ electrical bridging by metallic debris can only lead to 'right-side' failures to occupied in traditional track circuits, so that is not directly a safety issue, but a reliability one. Clearly, any IRJs passed over could be inspected and cleaned as neccesary following a slide incident where MTBs were used. I'd consider axle counter sensors passed over during a slide possibly vulnerable to some types of malfunctions as they use sensitive inductive techniques directly in the flange area. Again the most likely result is a miscount showing occupied. Much knowledge might be gained in this area from German experience, as both MTBs and axle counters have been in common use there for decades.
 

bahnause

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Or one could ask - is the infrastructure / signalling ready for trains that slide past a red signal (or limit of ETCS movement authority) and don't slow down noticeably in the next 900 metres?
If the track brake were "emergency only" then the potential interference with (say) track circuit operation would be a second-order risk at worst. Once the train had come to a stand and the track brake switched off, then the track circuit would start working again.
The metal mass of magnetic track brakes can have negative effects on existing signalling equipment even when not in active use. And Not every bogie is designed to absorb the additional forces of a magnetic track brake.
 
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Llanigraham

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It appears that TfW may have withdrawn some units from service today to ensure the sanders are working, meaning no TfW service between Shrewsbury and Birmingham.

The testing has decimated the service on the Cambrian today, and some of yesterday, but on a positive note they have arranged ticket acceptance with West Mids trains from Shrewsbury.
 

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