Khan manifesto: Overground lines to be named - what would you call them?

[Mikey C]

But I think here's the problem. Coming up with iconic names is a challenge in branding. It's not an organic process, it's not going to represent how the lines grew to prominence. It'll be like the teams on the Apprentice trying to invent a single word team name; forced and contrived.

I look forward to travelling on the Summit and Vitality lines

"We've renamed the Gospel Oak to Barking Line, the Vitality Line, as we feel this describes the er vitality of the places you go through like Harringay Green Lanes and Woodgrange Park"

 

[camflyer]

Branded names plus alphanumeric can work together. Tokyo has just gone through the process of giving Alphanumeric codes for Lines and Stations. It really makes things much easier for everyone. But they have kept line and station names too. People familiar with the network tend to use the line names. Those who aren't seem to focus on the codes.

Sounds like a sensible compromise

U1: The Northern Line
U2: The Piccadilly Line
U3: The Victoria Line

O1: The Goblin Line
O2: The Windrush Line

Bringing together the various TfL lines under the Overground brand was a good idea but there should be some sub-division of them

 

[Rail Blues]

As a Londoner l really object to outsiders wishing to change tube naming as it happens to suit them. Those of us who live here are very happy with the status quo.

London is a destination for business and leisure visitors from across the world. The signage and the names are primarily for the benefit of them, not people who know the underground network already. I am sure when Harry Beck's tube map was released there wer howls of protest that it omitted to show the shape of the routes or accurately represent the distance between stops. However it worked because as it conveyed the necessary information simply and efficiently.

As it is, the mess of underground, overground, DLR, national rail et al make for a confusing mess of too similar colours. I get that there's a heritage to their names, but there needs to be a rationalisation.


Camflyer's suggestion is to my mind perfectly logical and future proof.

 

[MarkyT]

Worth noting that apart from the Central and Circle lines, all Underground lines start with different letters.

So you might be able to work out a system where it is the Victoria line, and use letters. Perhaps give the Circle line 'O'

This would be my preference. Complicated lines like Met and District could have an alpha or numerical suffix to indicate destination branch, e.g. MU for Uxbridge, MW for Watford, DW for Wimbledon. Assuming groups of inner suburban services from a particular terminus were common named and coloured in a similar way, say you called the Victoria Brighton inners 'South Central', the various destinations might be shown by a similar letter suffix or numbers, e.g. SC1, SC2 etc. Great Northern, if the inners come into TfLs portfolio, should continue to be named after that traditional operator in my view and coloured a nice apple green on the map I think! Routes might be GNW to Welwyn, GNH to Hertford, GNS to Stevenage. Inbound to common terminal Moorgate, destination suffixes could be omitted on any indicator panels. Further suffixes such as X or L could be used to indicate an express or limited stopping pattern on a particular route. Branding of lines/routes is important I think to help passengers understand the network, and TOC colours and brands help with that today. If more inner suburbans go to TfL in the future then some form of differentiation is desirable to continue this, rather than a sea of unrelieved orange. As far as the 'wokeness' or otherwise of the names proposed, let's wait to see what the working group actually comes up with first before criticising what is in principle a good idea IMHO. I prefer geographical, old railway company references or clever abstract names rather than anything based on personalities, companies, etc, as these can fall from grace unexpectedly. No hospital or other institution named a 'Savile' ward or wing for example, which was lucky!

 

[bramling]

I prefer geographical, old railway company references or clever abstract names rather than anything based on personalities, companies, etc, as these can fall from grace unexpectedly. No hospital or other institution named a 'Savile' ward or wing for example, which was lucky!

This is indeed a very good reason *not* to name after personalities.

 

[NorthKent1989]

But I think here's the problem. Coming up with iconic names is a challenge in branding. It's not an organic process, it's not going to represent how the lines grew to prominence. It'll be like the teams on the Apprentice trying to invent a single word team name; forced and contrived.

Some names of lines on the Overground already exist, The East London, South London and North London lines are pretty well known, granted it’ll be harder for the lines out of Liverpool Street, the GOBLIN and the Euston to Watford line being given better names, the GOBLIN could be called the Walthamstow line, the Hackney lines for lines out of Liverpool Street, and maybe for the Euston to Watford line it could be called Eusford line?

 

[Hey 3]

I would keep the names as they are except for the North London Line, change it to Richford and the Gospel Oak to Barking Line to GOBLIN, but they would keep there names in formal matters.

Some names of lines on the Overground already exist, The East London, South London and North London lines are pretty well known, granted it’ll be harder for the lines out of Liverpool Street, the GOBLIN and the Euston to Watford line being given better names, the GOBLIN could be called the Walthamstow line, the Hackney lines for lines out of Liverpool Street, and maybe for the Euston to Watford line it could be called Eusford line?

Lea Valley sounds better to me. Walthamstow Line is very vague given the Victoria Line and the Lea Valley Lines also serve Walthamstow.

 

[southern442]

I've always thought that the Romford to Upminster line should be advertised as a branch line shuttle service of the Elizabeth line, similar to the old Chesham shuttle or Hainault - Woodford. But then again I am a bit of a map perfectonist who doesn't like seeing little isolated bits of orange.

 

[Wolfie]

The “Independence Line” to celebrate Brexit?



An excellent point indeed. Khan and his ilk should be very careful what they wish for.

Given that London voted massively against your genius first suggestion would make a future Tory mayor even less likely.

Although....

Independence for London would be quite appealing...

 

[Gareth]

Lol.

Seriously though, no.

 

[bramling]

London is a destination for business and leisure visitors from across the world.

Is it? Some mayoral policy ideas such as charging "outsiders" to drive cars into London would appear to suggest otherwise.

I've always thought that the Romford to Upminster line should be advertised as a branch line shuttle service of the Elizabeth line, similar to the old Chesham shuttle or Hainault - Woodford. But then again I am a bit of a map perfectonist who doesn't like seeing little isolated bits of orange.

If it wasn't for the fact that it's not really worth the cost of changing the electrification and signalling, it would more logically fit as part of the District Line, for the simple reason that there's both rolling stock and train crew depots immediately adjacent (at Upminster). Segregating it off from the NR lines at the Romford end would be quite easily achieved. There's even a nominally over-establishment S7 train which was built for the ill-fated Croxley scheme.

 

[43066]

Given that London voted massively against your genius first suggestion would make a future Tory mayor even less likely.

But thankfully not as unlikely as a future Labour government.

Perhaps we could call the ELL the “get out of my pub” line in honour of Peggy Mitchell, and the esteemed Labour leader’s antics today!

 

[camflyer]

But thankfully not as unlikely as a future Labour government.

Perhaps we could call the ELL the “get out of my pub” line in honour of Peggy Mitchell, and the esteemed Labour leader’s antics today!

The Windsor Line would be a good idea for east London. Named after Babs rather than the Royal Family.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Windsor Line would be a good idea for east London. Named after Babs rather than the Royal Family.

A wonderful name, especially for the late, beloved Barbara Windsor, but that would imply the Overground goes to Windsor would be worth to see American tourists board a Whitechapel and end up in Croydon or Crystal Palace

 

[Wolfie]

But thankfully not as unlikely as a future Labour government.

Perhaps we could call the ELL the “get out of my pub” line in honour of Peggy Mitchell, and the esteemed Labour leader’s antics today!

Re your last para the hilarious thing was the co-landlord complaining about his partner's rant and the response.. Not about to get into a BS political debate.

 

[David Goddard]

When I first heard this story a few weeks ago my initial response was that it was a good idea, with something like North London, East London, Tottenham & Hampstead, Watford, Edmonton, Chingford and Emerson Park Lines. At least with the West and South London lines now absorbed into the North and East London lines respectively this has taken two away!

However, on thinking about this again, the Overground is after all still a National Rail TOC (granted there are differences to others) and so is it really necessary? Apart from scenic branch lines, where there is an ovbious marketing potential, we don't have pet names for routes on other TOCS so is there a need for it here?

There are other discussions spawning from this about whether the routes need their own colours, this I feel should definitely be a NO.

 

[Gareth]

If Overground is still "a national rail TOC" then so is Merseyrail, which uses colours and names akin to London Underground.

I don't see why we should stick to the convention that national rail services should be denoted on maps unhelpfully if at all.

And so far as I'm concerned, these lines all have names anyway. It's merely impractical to distinguish them on a map if you insist on having it all one colour.

 

[David Goddard]

Cue new threads:

South Western Railway lines to be named - what would you name them?
Southen Railway lines to be named - what would you name them?

You get the idea!

 

[Gareth]

Nah.

 

[NorthOxonian]

When I first heard this story a few weeks ago my initial response was that it was a good idea, with something like North London, East London, Tottenham & Hampstead, Watford, Edmonton, Chingford and Emerson Park Lines. At least with the West and South London lines now absorbed into the North and East London lines respectively this has taken two away!

However, on thinking about this again, the Overground is after all still a National Rail TOC (granted there are differences to others) and so is it really necessary? Apart from scenic branch lines, where there is an ovbious marketing potential, we don't have pet names for routes on other TOCS so is there a need for it here?

There are other discussions spawning from this about whether the routes need their own colours, this I feel should definitely be a NO.

Merseyrail is a TOC which names all of its lines, and I'd argue is very analogous to the London Overground. It's a heavy rail network but serves the same role as a light rail or metro system.

 

[43066]

Merseyrail is a TOC which names all of its lines, and I'd argue is very analogous to the London Overground. It's a heavy rail network but serves the same role as a light rail or metro system.

My understanding of Merseyrail is that it’s almost entirely self contained, with limited connections to other services, partly due to its third rail island status.

As alluded to above the big issue with naming London Overground is that it shares so much infrastructure with other TOCs, and even with LU in the case of the Watford DC lines. These are already part of the Bakerloo Line, so would presumably become part of two named lines simultaneously under these proposals.

Journeys between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction (for one example, there are several others) can be made on both ARL and GTR services, so naming this section as part of an ARL “Line” would point people away from alternatives and cause more confusion in what is already an incredibly unwieldy and fragmented network.

EDIT: to me ARL is more like a mini Thameslink; services from a range of origins supplementing those of other TOCs and converging on an exclusive core. I realise that analogy isn’t perfect as, unlike Thameslink*, not all ARL services touch its core, but you hopefully see what I mean.

*Victoria/Pancras high level diversions and Blackfriars terminators aside, before someone points these out!

 

[Domh245]

Cue new threads:

South Western Railway lines to be named - what would you name them?
Southen Railway lines to be named - what would you name them?

You get the idea!

Southern (pre GTR) definitely used to have line names, and denoted these with different colours on their maps:

Spoiler: Southern Route names

Brighton Mainline
West London
Metro
Oxted
Redhill
Mainline West
Mainline East
Coastway West
Coastway East
Gatwick Express

SWR whilst not putting names on a map or differentiating them also appear to have line names, based on what's in their live travel updates list:

Spoiler: SWR route names

Kingston/Shepperton
Chessington/Epsom
Suburban Lines
Surbiton/Cobham
Hounslow Loop
Reading/Windsor Lines
South Western Mainline
West of England
Portsmouth Direct
South Hampshire Locals
Romsey/Salisbury
Ascot/Guildford
Island Line

In these cases, they all pass the 'geographic' point which I'd have zero issues with if also done to distinguish the mess of orange lines currently purporting to be a network. Not to mention that "well nobody else does it, so why should they make this improvement that'd benefit users" is seldom a good comparison

 

[southern442]

Not too sure how much of the public are in on the gag (if you can even call it a gag) but I'll be so disappointed if they don't keep the Goblin's name. (And as Geoff Marshall suggested, maybe colour it green?)

 

[NorthKent1989]

Southern (pre GTR) definitely used to have line names, and denoted these with different colours on their maps:

Spoiler: Southern Route names

Brighton Mainline
West London
Metro
Oxted
Redhill
Mainline West
Mainline East
Coastway West
Coastway East
Gatwick Express

SWR whilst not putting names on a map or differentiating them also appear to have line names, based on what's in their live travel updates list:

Spoiler: SWR route names

Kingston/Shepperton
Chessington/Epsom
Suburban Lines
Surbiton/Cobham
Hounslow Loop
Reading/Windsor Lines
South Western Mainline
West of England
Portsmouth Direct
South Hampshire Locals
Romsey/Salisbury
Ascot/Guildford
Island Line

In these cases, they all pass the 'geographic' point which I'd have zero issues with if also done to distinguish the mess of orange lines currently purporting to be a network. Not to mention that "well nobody else does it, so why should they make this improvement that'd benefit users" is seldom a good comparison

Even South Eastern have line names used by customers/locals and up until the early 2000s by announcements, recent years have identified these lines as such

The Woolwich line appears to apply to services via both Greenwich and Blackheath down to Medway, also the Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Hayes lines are now official on SE timetables, they even refer to the Orpington/Sevenoaks services as being the Grove Park line and the Victoria to Orpington as the Penge line

 

[bramling]

Not too sure how much of the public are in on the gag (if you can even call it a gag) but I'll be so disappointed if they don't keep the Goblin's name. (And as Geoff Marshall suggested, maybe colour it green?)

I have never heard anyone apart from enthusiasts refer to Goblin Line. It does’t even flow off the tongue that well.

My understanding of Merseyrail is that it’s almost entirely self contained, with limited connections to other services, partly due to its third rail island status.

As alluded to above the big issue with naming London Overground is that it shares so much infrastructure with other TOCs, and even with LU in the case of the Watford DC lines. These are already part of the Bakerloo Line, so would presumably become part of two named lines simultaneously under these proposals.

Journeys between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction (for one example, there are several others) can be made on both ARL and GTR services, so naming this section as part of an ARL “Line” would point people away from alternatives and cause more confusion in what is already an incredibly unwieldy and fragmented network.

EDIT: to me ARL is more like a mini Thameslink; services from a range of origins supplementing those of other TOCs and converging on an exclusive core. I realise that analogy isn’t perfect as, unlike Thameslink*, not all ARL services touch its core, but you hopefully see what I mean.

*Victoria/Pancras high level diversions and Blackfriars terminators aside, before someone points these out!

Merseyrail is indeed pretty much fully self-contained....

...however, there are three “lines”, two of which (Northern Line and Wirral Line) are operated by Merseyrail, however there’s also a third - City Line - which is essentially a brand loosely applied to some Northern services which serve the suburban stations on the various routes out of Lime Street.

The only other place which uses “line” brandings is the West Yorkshire PTE area.
To be fair, this doesn’t work too badly, though all the names are fairly straightforward and reflect the route.

London Overground already does use line names on stuff like timetables. I think doing it loosely in this way is fine, and see no reason to go further. But then I’m not Khan scraping the barrel for dodgy political policies!

 

[Wolfie]

Not too sure how much of the public are in on the gag (if you can even call it a gag) but I'll be so disappointed if they don't keep the Goblin's name. (And as Geoff Marshall suggested, maybe colour it green?)

There are lots of comments about using meaningful names and then you want to retain a spotter's joke, likely unfamiliar to most of the public, as a formal name - I think not.

I have never heard anyone apart from enthusiasts refer to Goblin Line. It does’t even flow off the tongue that well.

Absolutely agreed.

 

[Pete_uk]

I hope they don't name them after people.

 

[HSTEd]

Based on my earlier statement of shifting to letter identifiers, it might be better to shift towards a "Hybrid" of the London Underground and New York subway maps.

Where we have lines in colours but then break out the stopping patterns using letters in the NY Subway style (not quite as complicated as RER mission codes)

Especially useful on the District Line.

 

[PR1Berske]

Geoff Marshall has uploaded a video about this subject, focusing on both names and also the colours on the Tube map.
Link to video :

Image shows screengrab from the video showing six suggestions for the Overground lines and the colours on the Tube Map; the suggested names being East London Line, Rompminster, GOBLIN, Lea Valley, North London, and Harlequin.

 

[65477]

Perhaps the Goblin line should be called the Larkby line. For those mystified by the name Graham Larkby has run the lines user group for many years. I first met him professionally in the 1990's when Graham would appear at every opportunity to promote and defend the line and probably saved if from closure. He is still Chair to this day.

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