LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[modernrail]

I agree that the move towards operator specific ticketing is a backwards step.


Just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they don’t operate in the real world.

The usage of anytime as a cap is concerning (personally, I would lower the Anytime to the median between the previous Anytime and Offpeak) - but the fact is there isn’t enough data to say that this is outright making passengers pay a premium.

I’ll put it another way. How else could you manage demand better? Any solution needs to be revenue neutral else it’ll be rejected by HMT, and you’ve got to be able explain it to passengers at the end. One for another thread, perhaps.

Just a minute, I thought this was about simplifying fares for passengers not managing demand? If you want to manage demand that is really very simple. Reduce the amount of advance fares available on off peak trains leaving a decent number of seats for off-peak passengers. They are already capped and if off-peak passengers are taking up the rest of the seats overall revenue is higher.

But it is about simplifying fares for passengers isn’t it?

 

[Travelmonkey]

And Berwick.

Yes it does mean that. It also means you could buy London - Haymarket, London - Manors, Berwick - Finsbury Park and it will be cheaper for you.

Good ol flexible market distortion! Make it so they see the flexes are not all their cracked up to be.

* image gravity falls Meme paper with LNER flex on boy saying "Woah, this is worthless*

 

[Agent_Squash]

I don’t think it is. Off peak isn’t confusing if you think about it for more than a few minutes.

With this system, customers will see that it’s cheaper to get a ticket one stop beyond where they want to go and it’s cheaper. Why?

Is Joe Public really going to check the fares between Finsbury Park and Edinburgh versus the London Terminals fare?

The public is well used to searching between their combination only - most people wouldn’t even know where Manors is…

 

[Kieran_MF135]

Good ol flexible market distortion! Make it so they see the flexes are not all their cracked up to be.

* image gravity falls Meme paper with LNER flex on boy saying "Woah, this is worthless*
View attachment 150640

Also what about Passenger who booked assistant in advance for said train they want to take this new ticket seems terrible.

Start 70 mine either side of your booked train don't like the sound

 

[8rwg]

Is Joe Public really going to check the fares between Finsbury Park and Edinburgh versus the London Terminals fare?

The public is well used to searching between their combination only - most people wouldn’t even know where Manors is…

Unless they go to a ticket office or a split fare site (Trainline is pretty widespread these days), probably not.

They’ll probably just see they can fly there for £20 a do that.

 

[bramling]

Who would really travel from Edinburgh to London with no idea what time their train is going back?

Someone decides to add an extra night to their short break? I’ve done that quite a few times. Not a problem if travelling by car, of course.

If you need absolute certainty that you can get any train, you’ve still got the Anytime.

Yes but at potentially massive extra cost.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Also what about Passenger who booked assistant in advance for said train they want to take this new ticket seems terrible.

Start 70 mine either side of your booked train don't like the sound

In theory passenger assist would be hopefully unaffected I know @kingqueen has requested the equality assessment paperworky stuff but I'm not sure how this would stack for you,

Unless they go to a ticket office or a split fare site (Trainline is pretty widespread these days), probably not.

They’ll probably just see they can fly there for £20 a do that.

I'm almost tempted to look up if EMA havs any Scottish flights although lacking a passport is one kneecapping factor for me on that one. Although coach wouldn't be a issue for that either. It's time vs cost vs convenience, yeah a national express overnight is cheap but is it comfortable probably not. This flex is a big detractor to ECML travel also the hinge to E tickets bad for ticket office users and those with paper tickets,

 

[mad_rich]

Again, who actually is a TUAG passenger on the long distance railway?

Me, very frequently.

I go down to London from Newcastle on an Advance, but often have no idea what time or sometimes what day I'll be returning. So I might look the night before returning, or even on the day, and see a choice between £60-70 for an Advance or £83.80 for the Super Off-Peak. The Super Off-Peak is often better value, and doesn't require me to commit until I know I'm travelling.

With the added benefit that it's a stress free journey to King's Cross, and I'll take whichever train is next when I get there.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Also what about Passenger who booked assistant in advance for said train they want to take this new ticket seems terrible.

If you've booked directly with LNER - and made the assistance request at the time of booking, chosen e-ticket fulfilment and move the booking to another train at least two hours before the new departure time, my understanding is that your Passenger Assist booking will move with it.

If you didn't book directly with LNER and/or didn't choose an e-ticket, you'll have to request the change manually.

If it's less than two hours before the new departure time, it'll be treated as turn up and go assistance.

 

[yorkie]

Unless they go to a ticket office or a split fare site (Trainline is pretty widespread these days), probably not.

Ticket office staff are under instructions not to offer anything other than the fares from origin to destination; LNER have issued a reminder of this.

Split ticket sites, such as ours, will offer combinations of tickets which are cheaper.

They’ll probably just see they can fly there for £20 a do that.

True; the Government are encouraging modal shift from rail to air.

Someone decides to add an extra night to their short break?

Everyone has their travel plans booked up, to within +/- 70 mins, typically 12 weeks in advance. Apparently (!)

With the added benefit that it's a stress free journey to King's Cross, and I'll take whichever train is next when I get there.

But you might have to stand (!)

If you wait until departure time, you can avoid standing with a 70 min flex ticket, because so many people gave been driven onto the roads or into the air, there will now be spare seats for you. And if there are no spare seats because Newcastle just played Spurs , Arsenal etc, then you can help reduce the burden on taxpayers by paying £192 (!). It's for a good cause

 

[mad_rich]

And if there are no spare seats because Newcastle just played Spurs , Arsenal etc, then you can help reduce the burden on taxpayers by paying £192 (!). It's for a good cause

To be fair, in nearly 30 years of travelling between London and Newcastle, I’ve never once had to stand. I’ve only had seat reservations maybe half the time.

Perhaps I’ve been lucky! Admittedly I’m rarely travelling on the peakiest services.

 

[modernrail]

The more I think about this the less it makes sense.

1. Off peak fares are regulated fares aren’t they? How can they just remove them? Isn’t that a breach of some bit of legislation? Yes they have brought the franchises back in-house but have they actually repealed whatever forced TOCs to offer regulated fares according to the capped fare levels?

2. Isn’t also removing National Rail fares and imposing single operator only ticketing on a route a breach of something or other?

If the answer to the above is maybe yes is there not a potentially valid action for judicial review available to this decision. All you need is a class of individuals affected (us).

If not, is there not still a clear political argument that the Tories have used the cover of partial renationalisation to remove a category of flexible ticket that even they considered important enough to protect during initial privatisation?

Or, are we slightly misunderstanding this. Can you still buy a National Rail off-peak return, you just can’t buy a LNER specific off-peak return (which maybe you could before but nobody ever did?)

If we are not misunderstanding it, it really does feel like somebody should be looking into a JR of the decision.

Roll in an army of those bloody lefty lawyers (accountability) the Tories love to moan about in their hideous little clubs.

For me (and the Tories in the 90’s) the off peak return has always been THE protected backbone of rail travel. Your failsafe not hideously priced ticket, guaranteed available and guaranteed capped, if you need to get somewhere. If you find your plans have changed, you can get, shock horror, a refund. You only risk, bumping into a peak period but then you could, shock horror, pay an upgrade rather than the hideous system for other tickets where the TOC pretends your original ticket did not exist.

These are all massively important terms and conditions that LNER are pulling without any consultation. Maybe illegally?

It was always ridiculous that Anytime fares were not protected, or that there was not at least a regulated peak day return and single.

But for me one of the most ridiculous developments has always been the obsession with stuffing trains full of advance passengers paying under the odds, squeezing out off-peak passengers paying something more like the odds.

There is absolutely a place for advance tickets but it should be more like 2/5 advance, 2/5 off-peak and 1/5 first on a UK long distance train. That is an equitable split that gives everybody a fair crack at their journey with their competing needs of price/flexibility/comfort level.

There is NO argument for this change for demand suppression. Demand suppression would economically better be carried out by throttling back on the cheaper advance fares. Yes that might mean less discretionary travel but that is the point - it is discretionary and with all the railcard discounts most discretionary travel is accessible at the regulated off-peak fare. Families, young people and the elderly are particularly well catered for with railcards.

As for those who say there is currently no sense of off-peak trains for long distance trains in the UK, what utter drivel. On most routes most trains are off peak. It is the minority that are peak.

This needs fighting.

 

[GoneSouth]

As many of you have said there is no actual off peak period on LNER, then by definition there is also no actual Peak. I should therefore be able to use my flex ticket in ANY train, both AM and PM, and there should be a HUGE price reduction in the anytime fare to something close to the off peak fare.

A lot of you have made very disparaging comments about the great British general public being a bit stupid or uninterested in what is happening here. When everyone’s financial champion, Martin Lewis, starts telling us it’s a rip off and a thinly veiled price hike of epic proportions, then maybe everyone will be interested.

And for those that don’t watch ITV, maybe Simon Calder can chip in with a few home truths for the newspaper readers.

 

[island]

The stop short/start late restriction is pointless on advance tickets - hopefully this is removed at some point in the fare reform journey.

It helps with market segmentation. If passengers for a big market like Newcastle can buy a ticket to Alnmouth or Morpeth which has been priced lower to attract custom from a smaller market, this results in reduced takings for the railway. To the extent it is “pointless” this is merely because the restriction is difficult to enforce.

Are you sure you don’t work for LNER?

This sort of facetious thought-terminating cliché says far more about the writer than about the target.

 

[modernrail]

By using the word facetious I am pleased that you agree that the removal of previously (and perhaps still) regulated fares by LNER is a serious issue.

However, whilst a serious issue, it is not war or famine and so I don’t think we need the moral judgment brigade banning flippancy.

I am sorry if it resulted in your thoughts being terminated. That sounds awfully serious.

It helps with market segmentation. If passengers for a big market like Newcastle can buy a ticket to Alnmouth or Morpeth which has been priced lower to attract custom from a smaller market, this results in reduced takings for the railway. To the extent it is “pointless” this is merely because the restriction is difficult to enforce.

This sort of facetious thought-terminating cliché says far more about the writer than about the target.

I suspect it is less to do with offering the smaller market a cheaper ticket and more about charging the larger market a more expensive ticket. Whichever way around it is it has always been a ridiculous feature.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Again, who actually is a TUAG passenger on the long distance railway?

I really dispute this idea that London - Newcastle is somehow incredibly long distance. Geographically this may be true but in terms of journey time it's a similar distance from London as Lancaster, Totnes, or Weymouth. In fact, as a cynic the fact journey times aren't all that much longer than to places like Leeds makes me worry this is the thin end of the wedge...

 

[A S Leib]

I really dispute this idea that London - Newcastle is somehow incredibly long distance. Geographically this may be true but in terms of journey time it's a similar distance from London as Lancaster, Totnes, or Weymouth

It's also perfectly reasonable to do a day trip between the two when the first arrival from Newcastle gets to King's Cross at 08:38 and and the last northbound departure's thirteen hours later, and something like Euston to Windermere, a similar time length, is something somebody fairly but not necessarily very well-off could do without much planning (£86 return with a railcard).

As for the question of who's a TUAG passenger over 200+ miles, I've had to travel between London / Hertfordshire and Newcastle with less than a week's notice twice in the last five months.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The most facetious edge case there is… proving how very few people really need an off peak return.

If I was having to travel long distance to see my mum, I’d at least check the train times first. Of which you can purchase an advance/flex up to 5 minutes before…

But how do you know how long you will have to stay up there?

same applies to many other forms of travel - even if you know when you're going, you may not know when you're coming back. So you can't book in advance and so the price of the round trip becomes a lottery.

Whether it's emergency childcare, a football match going into extra time, or a hospital appointment.

And for less than the price of an Anytime return you can hire a car, (or spot-insure a friend's) and, although driving to Newcastle and back in a day is not practical, you'll have enough left over to spend a night in a Travelodge.

 

[ChrisC]

The stop short/start late restriction is pointless on advance tickets - hopefully this is removed at some point in the fare reform journey.

Not everyone wants the flexibility to be able to stop short as a means of avoiding higher fares. When I’m returning home, if a train is running just a few minutes late, I will get off at the station before where my ticket is booked to, because it will help with a better onward bus connection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not everyone wants the flexibility to be able to short as a means of avoiding higher fares. When I’m returning home, if a train is running just a few minutes late, I will get off at the station before where my ticket is booked to, because it will help with a better onward bus connection.

Yep. Or I might get on/off at Milton Keynes Central vs. Bletchley.

And break of journey doesn't have to mean complex stuff. I feel a bit hungry so I stop off for a meal. I can do that in my car. I can't on a plane, no, but that only takes an hour.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Not everyone wants the flexibility to be able to short as a means of avoiding higher fares. When I’m returning home, if a train is running just a few minutes late, I will get off at the station before where my ticket is booked to, because it will help with a better onward bus connection.

Another reason why, as per my post, the restriction is pointless.

But how do you know how long you will have to stay up there?

same applies to many other forms of travel - even if you know when you're going, you may not know when you're coming back. So you can't book in advance and so the price of the round trip becomes a lottery.

Whether it's emergency childcare, a football match going into extra time, or a hospital appointment.

And for less than the price of an Anytime return you can hire a car, (or spot-insure a friend's) and, although driving to Newcastle and back in a day is not practical, you'll have enough left over to spend a night in a Travelodge.

Or, you could do the sensible thing and buy an advance/flex when your travel plans become clearer.

Under single leg pricing, you can’t benefit from the ‘return in 30 days’ that was previously part of return tickets anyway. So you’ll still have to buy a ticket for a date.

As for the question of who's a TUAG passenger over 200+ miles, I've had to travel between London / Hertfordshire and Newcastle with less than a week's notice twice in the last five months.

This isn’t TUAG, though? You’re well within the time limit for advances and flexes.

 

[156421]

I'm almost tempted to look up if EMA havs any Scottish flights although lacking a passport is one kneecapping factor for me on that one.

Not required for domestic flights; driving licence will suffice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think what @Agent_Squash is missing is that while the Advance fares may be reasonable now, removing the cap means they WILL be cranked up.

They might not need flexibility, but they'll certainly be bothered WHEN their fare increases significantly.

As I said, if this was not the plan there would be no reason to remove the Super Off Peak, the new fares could simply be added to the mix to see who buys what.

With regard to the other suggestion by @Agent_Squash to remove Super Off Peak and reduce the Anytime to be less punitive I would have far less of an issue if this was done. Ideally it would be done on a revenue neutral basis, which based on how few people actually buy Anytimes might mean a London to Newcastle Anytime of about £100. That's an increase for those needing flexibility both ways, but I certainly find I'm much more likely to be able to plan the outward train to a specific time than the return.

This is basically Lumo's model, their Anytime is high compared to their other fares but still relatively affordable. It would also by and large line our fare concepts and levels up with Deutsche Bahn's ICE.

The other thing that would make Advances more palatable would be the removal of the £10 admin fee, as some retailers already do. No human admin is being done, there is no justification to charge this any more.

 

[bakerstreet]

This isn’t TUAG, though? You’re well within the time limit for advances and flexes.

with little certainty how much you will pay or if advances / flex advances will be available

 

[yorksrob]

The most facetious edge case there is… proving how very few people really need an off peak return.

If I was having to travel long distance to see my mum, I’d at least check the train times first. Of which you can purchase an advance/flex up to 5 minutes before…

It’s not that hard a concept!



People can come to their own opinions, you know… even after learning about the harsh conditions of the ticket, I’ve always felt this is a better idea because it’s far clearer to the public!

Anytimes are ridiculously priced - but equally there is very little reason under the new system to need them. Being resistant to change isn’t a valid argument against this. In all your examples…

1) National Rail Conditions of Carriage - it wouldn’t make any difference…
2) Millions travel on advances without doing the same. Again, you wouldn’t book to travel 400 miles without giving your return some thought.
3) No one can really make a valid judgement on this until they see the on the day pricing.
4) Believe it or not, most people are still capable of time management.

Millions do travel on advances. No one is attempting to stop that.

So it's frankly bizarre that someone can use this fact to justify removing options for people who require more flexibility.

This is before we come to the crux of the issue (stated many times previously) which is the removal of the off-peak fare as a cap on advanced purchase tickets.

This proposal really is diabolical.

As with any change to the railway under this Government, one has to understand exactly how they are screwing passengers over (because they always are in some way).

 

[Agent_Squash]

I think what @Agent_Squash is missing is that while the Advance fares may be reasonable now, removing the cap means they WILL be cranked up.

They might not need flexibility, but they'll certainly be bothered WHEN their fare increases significantly.

As I said, if this was not the plan there would be no reason to remove the Super Off Peak, the new fares could simply be added to the mix to see who buys what.

I’m not missing it. I’m entirely aware of the objective - to make what was an off peak train better from a revenue perspective.

But you’ve missed my point - an operator isn’t going to be stupid enough to price out the majority of their passengers. Especially with plenty of Tory MPs along the route…

As previously mentioned though, I would love to see the lowering of the anytime fare to the median between off peak and the current fare.

with little certainty how much you will pay or if advances / flex advances will be available

For today. You can pick up a LNER advance for cheaper than the current flexible single (anytime / offpeak). That’s hardly price gouging.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not missing it. I’m entirely aware of the objective - to make what was an off peak train better from a revenue perspective.

What you mean to say is "to make what was an off peak train more expensive".

But you’ve missed my point - an operator isn’t going to be stupid enough to price out the majority of their passengers. Especially with plenty of Tory MPs along the route…

Price them out no. Sneak it up 20 or 30 quid here and there, absolutely.

Also remember the Avanti Anytimes. £350 London to Manchester means fewer bums on seats but makes more money, that's why it has persisted.

The other reason they like Advances is that you can sneak them up without the adverse publicity of an annual fares round. Just play with the quotas. And you can be sure they will. You saw how LNER ruined the potentially good publicity around single fare pricing by cranking the prices up 20% at the same time, right? They won't do that again, they'll sneak in the increase later, a drip, drip, drip at a time.

For today. You can pick up a LNER advance for cheaper than the current flexible single (anytime / offpeak). That’s hardly price gouging.

Why would they price Advances higher than Off Peaks now? Clearly the cranking up will happen after abolition.

 

[bakerstreet]

I’m not missing it. I’m entirely aware of the objective - to make what was an off peak train better from a revenue perspective.

But you’ve missed my point - an operator isn’t going to be stupid enough to price out the majority of their passengers. Especially with plenty of Tory MPs along the route…

As previously mentioned though, I would love to see the lowering of the anytime fare to the median between off peak and the current fare.



For today. You can pick up a LNER advance for cheaper than the current flexible single (anytime / offpeak). That’s hardly price gouging.

I’m sure you can. But it’s not guaranteed, we’ve seen examples of Advance tiers above the rate of the walk up fare.
And we’ve seen trains / days when absolutely no advances are being sold.
Im sure you know this well.

 

[Hadders]

For today. You can pick up a LNER advance for cheaper than the current flexible single (anytime / offpeak). That’s hardly price gouging.

It's not about what happens today, this week or even this month. Clearly LNER aren't going to be stupid enough to show massive price increases in the launch week.

The problem is what happens in a few months or years time.

Advance fares are unregulated. There is no transparency. We don't know how many tickets there are at what price, they can change at the drop of a hat.
A cash strapped train company needs to raise some revenue. No problem - put £20 on each ticket. No-one will notice. Of course they will keep a handful of very cheap fares on the first/last train so they can advertise 'fares from £...'
Next remove the number of cheaper tickets available in each tier - a common tactic to jack up revenue.
LNER tell us that Off Peak fares are outdated and complicated. Err - not really when compared to what is being proposed.
Heaven knows what's going to happen during planned engineering works, or disruption, or when connections are missed.
Goodbye to using alternative operators unless you have an Anytime ticket

 

[Agent_Squash]

Why would they price Advances higher than Off Peaks now? Clearly the cranking up will happen after abolition.

Why would they be offering advances at a cheaper rate on the day if they just wanted money?

Price them out no. Sneak it up 20 or 30 quid here and there, absolutely.

Also remember the Avanti Anytimes. £350 London to Manchester means fewer bums on seats but makes more money, that's why it has persisted.

The other reason they like Advances is that you can sneak them up without the adverse publicity of an annual fares round. Just play with the quotas. And you can be sure they will. You saw how LNER ruined the potentially good publicity around single fare pricing by cranking the prices up 20% at the same time, right? They won't do that again, they'll sneak in the increase later, a drip, drip, drip at a time.

You keep mentioning the Avanti anytimes. You fail to mention the key differences between them; namely Avanti don’t (at all, iirc) do advance on the day, and there is a clear peak demand on London-Manchester.

Considering LNER have competition from the car, the plane and on the rails from Lumo, I would be very surprised if they started taking the biscuit with dynamic pricing. The DfT subsidy for Northern has to come from somewhere!

LNER tell us that Off Peak fares are outdated and complicated. Err - not really when compared to what is being proposed.

For anyone outside these forums, off peak is far more complicated than it needs to be.

Sure, you can ‘do your research’ - but why should the system be so complicated that you need to in the first place?