LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Starmill]

Again, people are making their judgement based on the worst case scenario - I’d genuinely be surprised if (outside of packed out trains) these tickets will be sold out.

And people are perfectly entitled to come to that judgement, frankly. You're misunderstanding the nature of the complaint - people don't want to move from a guaranteed price to a yeild-managed one. Unsurprisingly. Why are you so unhappy about that?

 

[Joe Paxton]

[...]
I think the poster means "Advances available up to departure time ish". Plenty of TOCs do this, LNER do now as do Northern.

Doubtless they can - but they can still sell out, so you don't know, until you turn up at the station, how much you are going to pay.

Yes, correct, it is rather risky.

The idea of single-fare pricing works on the basis that you can gain full flexibility by not buying until you know when you're going to travel. But if the cap suddenly rises from about £90 to about £200, that becomes inviable. Which means you have to fix in advance. Which means the advantage of the train is removed, so you might as well fly - cheaper and faster. Or drive for flexibility.

For me this is the crux of the matter. You could retain flexibility to travel in the off-peak window, with the backstop of knowing the fare was capped at a reasonable level (i.e. the Off-Peak fare). In this brave new world, it's a bit of a crapshoot.

I guess we'll see how it works out in practice. I'd imagine there's the opportunity for clever tools to be developed to analyse the historical availbility of fares at certain levels and so could provide potential passengers with a prediction (an educated guess I suppose) as to the likely availability and price of fares at short notice at certain times on certain days - such a tool could have inputs based on how well tickets have been selling on particular trains (to the extent that RARS2 might allow access to this information), extrapolating based on sales data (the Trainline has a mine of this of course), and events such as football matches, concerts and festivals etc that are likely to drive passenger numbers. However such a tool could only ever provide an indication of what might be available - which is rather different to there being a hard cap on the fare.

(Well yes, there is a hard cap in the form of the Anytime fare... but it's so hard a cap that it'll really hurt if you hit it!)

 

[Fermiboson]

And indeed with the level of punctuality seen on the ECML, 70-min flexibility is really no flexibility at all. I’ve been on it four times in the past six months and three out of four times my service was delayed by over half an hour, and the remaining time all other services on the ECML within 70 mins of mine were cancelled (!). The one time I travelled with advances on it, I ended up missing my connection and was thrown on a taxi out of KX at 2am. Add to that the whole confusion of timetabled vs expected 70 min window, and this is in effect just a wholesale removal of off peak.

 

[cjxmc]

And indeed with the level of punctuality seen on the ECML, 70-min flexibility is really no flexibility at all. I’ve been on it four times in the past six months and three out of four times my service was delayed by over half an hour, and the remaining time all other services on the ECML within 70 mins of mine were cancelled (!). The one time I travelled with advances on it, I ended up missing my connection and was thrown on a taxi out of KX at 2am. Add to that the whole confusion of timetabled vs expected 70 min window, and this is in effect just a wholesale removal of off peak.

I can foresee huge amounts of confusion at times of disruption where certain trains are cancelled while others are started further up the line. Seat reservations will go out of the window; in effect any advance would then be valid on the later services as a result of any cancellation!

 

[Peter0124]

And indeed with the level of punctuality seen on the ECML, 70-min flexibility is really no flexibility at all. I’ve been on it four times in the past six months and three out of four times my service was delayed by over half an hour, and the remaining time all other services on the ECML within 70 mins of mine were cancelled (!). The one time I travelled with advances on it, I ended up missing my connection and was thrown on a taxi out of KX at 2am. Add to that the whole confusion of timetabled vs expected 70 min window, and this is in effect just a wholesale removal of off peak.

In times of major Disruption, Advances should be made valid for ANY train that day, and have full refunds given if people don't want to travel anymore (no admin fee).

Do away with that travel on a service directly before/after shenanigans if your train is cancelled, and allow it on ANY train providing the Advance was bought before the disruption occured.

 

[Dan G]

So have I - although my father was considerate enough to die at an off peak time.

But there are plenty of other situations where you have to travel long distance at no notice, or considerably less than twelve weeks, and advance tickets may not be available.
People enter this world as well as leave it with little notice of the exact date.
Other personal business may be at short notice too

• a funeral,
• a court appearance (whether as witness or litigant)
• a job interview,
• a hospital appointment,
• providing emergency childcare cover for a relative,
• travelling to stand in for an actor or musician who is taken ill,
• attendance or participation in a sporting fixture (the draw for each round of a knock out competition cannot be made until at least the majority of matches in the previous round have been played)
• eturning home from an airport after a flight

And many events have flexible end times (sporting events running into extra time for example - and watching the clock at a wake - let alone a deathbed - is not good manners either). Not to mention getting home from the airport after a flight. So even if you can confidently know when you are going, you may not know when you will be returning.

Or simply wanting to visit somewhere and deciding on when to do so only once the weather forecast is known.

You would have notice for all of those events.

While knock-out cup football matches or potentially delayed flights are tricky oned, again, I don't think it's reasonable that the fare system needs to be designed around those scenarios.

 

[CyrusWuff]

In the event of late running, whether you can Flex onto a given train or not is determined by the scheduled time rather than the actual time.

Obviously during major disruption I'd assume the official policy would go out the window, as it does with normal Advance tickets.

 

[AY1975]

The LNER website says if you hold a 70 min Flex ticket and want to change your travel plans to another train within the 70 minute window you can change your seat reservations using the LNER app, and if you can't access the app you can... and then it ends mid-sentence. I'm guessing that it should say you can log onto the LNER website if you have access to an internet-enabled device, or if not you can do it at any LNER ticket office/travel centre.

It also says if you want to change your ticket to a different train outside the 70 minute window, or to a different date, you can do so but will be charged a £10 admin fee plus any difference in price if the cheapest available 70 min Flex ticket on the train that you now want to use is more expensive than on your original train.

 

[WelshBluebird]

You would have notice for all of those events.

Not always.
And even then there's always the "I wanted to spend longer than planned" somewhere, be that if you have travelled somewhere for a meal or an event, or if you are say visiting family for a weekend. The idea that people have every single bit of their journey planned exactly well in advance is just utter nonsense.

While knock-out cup football matches or potentially delayed flights are tricky oned, again, I don't think it's reasonable that the fare system needs to be designed around those scenarios.

Why not? The fare system should be designed around what people use it for, and lots and lots of people use it for scenarios like descirbed where you simply don't know in advance what time you will be travelling.

you can do so but will be charged a £10 admin fee plus any difference in price if the cheapest available 70 min Flex ticket on the train that you now want to use is more expensive than on your original train.

And if there aren't any available presumably the difference in price betyween what you have paid and the anytime fare

 

[Gaelan]

The LNER website says if you hold a 70 min Flex ticket and want to change your travel plans to another train within the 70 minute window you can change your seat reservations using the LNER app, and if you can't access the app you can... and then it ends mid-sentence. I'm guessing that it should say you can log onto the LNER website if you have access to an internet-enabled device, or if not you can do it at any LNER ticket office/travel centre.

To be clear, while LNER (reasonably enough) would prefer you change your reservation, the 70min flex tickets are unconditionally valid on any train within the window, reservations or no.

 

[MTR380A]

The more I think about how to simplify rail fare structure, the more I feel it inevitable that we need to live without off-peak and super off-peak. They are the most complicated part of the current system, especially for non-regular passengers.

The real problem here is not that we get rid of off-peak, but that the anytime fare is too high for many. Would you feel the same if we remove peak fare like what Scotrail did (i.e. the original off-peak fare becoming the new flexible)? It may not be feasible due to decrease in revenue and overcrowding, but you see my point.

Another more pragmatic approach is to lower the anytime fare by a third and offer no further discount to railcard holders. It would further simplify the fare structure as nobody needs to buy railcard anymore.

 

[Fermiboson]

The more I think about how to simplify rail fare structure, the more I feel it inevitable that we need to live without off-peak and super off-peak. They are the most complicated part of the current system, especially for non-regular passengers.

The real problem here is not that we get rid of off-peak, but that the anytime fare is too high for many. Would you feel the same if we remove peak fare like what Scotrail did (i.e. the original off-peak fare becoming the new flexible)? It may not be feasible due to decrease in revenue and overcrowding, but you see my point.

Another more pragmatic approach is to lower the anytime fare by a third and offer no further discount to railcard holders. It would further simplify the fare structure as nobody needs to buy railcard anymore.

"Simplifications" of the fare structure that hike up the price this significantly are not simplifications, they are incredibly unfair price hikes dressed in PR waff. I would prefer to have to do research and be able to eat than the other way round, and I doubt you'll find anyone that disagrees. Not to mention the actually complicated parts of the system (split ticketing, advances, delaying, [TOC]-only tickets, breaks of journey, etc, etc, etc) are either not simplified or actually made more complicated by this flexible ticket scheme.

"offer no further discount to railcard holders" Yes, I'm sure that'll go over extremely well with senior railcard users (who, as above mentioned, may also have accessibility issues with flexitickets). To say nothing of young people and students, who don't matter because they have no political power.

 

[yorksrob]

The more I think about how to simplify rail fare structure, the more I feel it inevitable that we need to live without off-peak and super off-peak. They are the most complicated part of the current system, especially for non-regular passengers.

The real problem here is not that we get rid of off-peak, but that the anytime fare is too high for many. Would you feel the same if we remove peak fare like what Scotrail did (i.e. the original off-peak fare becoming the new flexible)? It may not be feasible due to decrease in revenue and overcrowding, but you see my point.

Another more pragmatic approach is to lower the anytime fare by a third and offer no further discount to railcard holders. It would further simplify the fare structure as nobody needs to buy railcard anymore.

People don't wan't "simplification" as an end in itself. This is part of industry/government obfuscation.

Consistently cheaper is what passengers want.

 

[takno]

The more I think about how to simplify rail fare structure, the more I feel it inevitable that we need to live without off-peak and super off-peak. They are the most complicated part of the current system, especially for non-regular passengers.

The real problem here is not that we get rid of off-peak, but that the anytime fare is too high for many. Would you feel the same if we remove peak fare like what Scotrail did (i.e. the original off-peak fare becoming the new flexible)? It may not be feasible due to decrease in revenue and overcrowding, but you see my point.

Another more pragmatic approach is to lower the anytime fare by a third and offer no further discount to railcard holders. It would further simplify the fare structure as nobody needs to buy railcard anymore.

I think there's an argument for making the peak/off-peak split easier to explain, and the last train should always be an off-peak train to prevent people from getting stuck, but I don't really agree at all that it's somehow demonically complex or the most difficult part of the existing system.

I know a lot of people like to speak for the theoretical typical passenger who isn't very experienced with this stuff, but it's an absolute nonsense to claim not only that the typical passenger is not knowledgeable, but that the typical passenger isn't capable of figuring this out, and indeed is such a drooling simpleton that they must be protected from dangerous notions like catching a different train from the first one they looked at.

More importantly, it appears to already be the case that this is leading to higher fares on a number of days in the near future than the old off-peak fare. Everybody was protected by that fare, whether they actually used it or not.

 

[Krokodil]

Walk-up rail travel on those particular journeys has been transported back to 1950

If only it had. Rolling back to 1950 would mean mileage-based fares and you would even have reversed decades of above-inflation rises.

The more apparent issue is the removal of a cap on fares, but again, airlines done offer that either.

Trains are a public service. Miserly luggage restrictions (like Lumo) will be next.

LNER services have limited luggage capacity and everyone wants a seat. The only way you can manage that is pricing

If only we had a project to increase capacity between London and York, and London and Scotland. Oh wait, we did. The government pulled the plug.

Surely anyone with PRIV will have the knowledge to buy a Metrocentre-Haymarket off peak return instead?

Retail staff may know, and drivers can ask guards for advice. Network Rail staff however are unlikely to have a clue.

LNER don't want to be sharing revenue with other operators

Which considering that the revenue from the two named (TPE and XC) goes to the same place anyway, the situation is symbolic of the dysfunctional railway we now have.

I'd be alright with Anytime and Advance as the only options. No different to flying.

It astounds me that Ryanair are seen as something to aspire to.

As long as they say "Simplified" or "Improved" often enough they'll get away with it.

I suppose that "modernised" has fallen back out of fashion.

if the trial is deemed a success (which could happen even if it's widely disliked)

As it involves fleecing customers of course it will be a success.

And of course, if a booking site other than LNER (perhaps one operated by a TOC who gets a share of the ORCATS revenue on London-Haymarket flows) adding a big splash across the results of a London-Edinburgh search saying "You could buy a ticket to Haymarket but get off at Waverley for £x less", that'd have a significant impact.

Anyone fancy renting some advertising space near Kings Cross? Would be great fun to troll them.

Advances are typically available up to 5 mins prior to departure on many TOCs, including LNER, subject to availability. So, yes probably.

"subject to availability" being a crucial caveat.

Again, who actually is a TUAG passenger on the long distance railway?

I frequently have passengers say "I'm not sure when I'll be coming back". London to Edinburgh is served by 2tph which is easily frequent enough that you can just turn up at the station when you're ready, so long as you're aware of when the last train is. No just popping into Oxford Street for some last-minute shopping in the knowledge that there will be another train in half an hour.

If I was having to travel long distance to see my mum, I’d at least check the train times first. Of which you can purchase an advance/flex up to 5 minutes before…

Subject to availability. Do we need to ask elderly relatives to take particular care on days when Newcastle are playing away at Tottenham, lest we not be able to afford to visit?

It was always ridiculous that Anytime fares were not protected, or that there was not at least a regulated peak day return and single.

Fare regulation should just consist of a cap on the mileage rate for standard class fares.

Under single leg pricing, you can’t benefit from the ‘return in 30 days’ that was previously part of return tickets anyway.

A retrograde step in itself.

So you’ll still have to buy a ticket for a date.

So I go off on holiday and a strike gets called for the day I return. On top of spending an extra night in London I will also be fleeced for an Anytime ticket because you can guarantee that there won't be any Advance or Flex tickets available. Thank god I live on the other side of the country and Avanti still sell Off Peak Return tickets (not complicated, don't arrive in London before 10:30 Mon-Thu, don't leave London before 09:00).

Of course they will keep a handful of very cheap fares on the first/last train so they can advertise 'fares from £...'

Eurostar recently got a slap on the wrist from the ASA for "tickets from £39". Apparently the promoted fare should represent a "significant proportion" (10% at least) of tickets sold or the advertising is misleading.

 

[MTR380A]

"offer no further discount to railcard holders" Yes, I'm sure that'll go over extremely well with senior railcard users (who, as above mentioned, may also have accessibility issues with flexitickets). To say nothing of young people and students, who don't matter because they have no political power.

The senior, the young and students have nothing to lose if all fares are lowered by a third. Indeed they gain by not needing to pay for railcards.

 

[Fermiboson]

In times of major Disruption, Advances should be made valid for ANY train that day, and have full refunds given if people don't want to travel anymore (no admin fee).

Do away with that travel on a service directly before/after shenanigans if your train is cancelled, and allow it on ANY train providing the Advance was bought before the disruption occured.

In fact even the service before/after rule appears to be ignored at times by LNER staff at smaller stations. I was very confused when told by staff at Retford that instead of catching the next (and last) train down to London, I should return to my origin station (and presumably find a homeless shelter there?) because a "not to travel" advisory had been given after the ticket was booked, but before my journey began, so LNER was "not obligated" to accept the ticket. Luckily, I did not listen to said staff member.

The senior, the young and students have nothing to lose if all fares are lowered by a third. Indeed they gain by not needing to pay for railcards.

Obfuscation at its peak. Currently, I can get an off-peak return at 2/3 off peak price. Removing off peak then lowering anytime by 1/3 still doubles that price.

Anyone fancy renting some advertising space near Kings Cross? Would be great fun to troll them.

I wonder what is stopping anyone from running an ad in LNER stations that tells people to go to Haymarket instead...

 

[bakerstreet]

The senior, the young and students have nothing to lose if all fares are lowered by a third. Indeed they gain by not needing to pay for railcards.

I’d celebrate that. But the whole purpose of this exercise is to increase railway income to the Treasury and to reduce overcrowding (demand), again meaning the railway is cheaper to run.

 

[Kite159]

Eurostar recently got a slap on the wrist from the ASA for "tickets from £39". Apparently the promoted fare should represent a "significant proportion" (10% at least) of tickets sold or the advertising is misleading.

No doubt LNER will get around any such restrictions by loading the cheaper ticket availablity on the first/late train of the day, ones with limited onwards connections (ie 05:XX London to Edinburgh, trains into London around midnight etc) which traditionally have lower loadings of end to end passengers.
Or cheaper advances during the middle of the day on a Wednesday.

-----

The proof in the pudding will be the cost of fares from Edinburgh to London on Easter Monday departing around 2pm. Haymarket - London is slightly easier to bypass any 'no break of journey' restrictions if LNER decide to introduce them due to the layout of Edinburgh station with multiple barrier lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The proof in the pudding will be the cost of fares from Edinburgh to London on Easter Monday departing around 2pm. Haymarket - London is slightly easier to bypass any 'no break of journey' restrictions if LNER decide to introduce them due to the layout of Edinburgh station with multiple barrier lines.

Or genuinely travel from Haymarket. It's in the city centre.

 

[Krokodil]

Would you feel the same if we remove peak fare like what Scotrail did (i.e. the original off-peak fare becoming the new flexible)?

Of course not, because that wouldn't involve more than doubling the price of a ticket.

You want to know what the public wants? The public wants Anytime tickets at Advance prices, with a seat. Cast aside any delusions you may have about elected governments existing to give the public what they want though.

 

[yorksrob]

Cast aside any delusions you may have about elected governments existing to give the public what they want though.

Although the Scottish Government appears to be closer to what the public want in this case, than the shower in Westminster.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, correct, it is rather risky.

The idea of single-fare pricing works on the basis that you can gain full flexibility by not buying until you know when you're going to travel. But if the cap suddenly rises from about £90 to about £200, that becomes inviable. Which means you have to fix in advance. Which means the advantage of the train is removed, so you might as well fly - cheaper and faster. Or drive for flexibility.

Indeed. The reality is that people want a bargain price in exchange for fixing, quite rightly so too given the rights you have to give up. This is a totally transparent attempt to get people to pay more and more and more, but continue to keep the other conditions just the same.

I will personally never fix unless for a bargain (think the proverbial £20 Ryanair flight from Edinburgh to Rome or Northern advance from Leeds to Manchester for £3.50 or whatever).

You want to know what the public wants? The public wants Anytime tickets at Advance prices, with a seat.

I'd suggest anyone expecting that would be pretty justified in doing so too, given they're contributing yo the railway through vast public subsidy even if they never actually buy any tickets at all.

 

[AY1975]

Unless I've overlooked something, if you key in a journey such as King's Cross to Manors or Haymarket on the LNER site for a date on or after 5th Feb, it offers you a First Class Off-Peak Single but doesn't appear to mention the Standard Class Super Off-Peak Single. Most other operators' sites do offer it, though.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Unless I've overlooked something, if you key in a journey such as King's Cross to Manors or Haymarket on the LNER site for a date on or after 5th Feb, it offers you a First Class Off-Peak Single but doesn't appear to mention the Standard Class Super Off-Peak Single. Most other operators' sites do offer it, though.

I've just looked and it does offer the Super Offpeak single , you aren't looking at a restricted train are you?

 

[MrJeeves]

Unless I've overlooked something, if you key in a journey such as King's Cross to Manors or Haymarket on the LNER site for a date on or after 5th Feb, it offers you a First Class Off-Peak Single but doesn't appear to mention the Standard Class Super Off-Peak Single. Most other operators' sites do offer it, though.

I bet that's because they've removed advance availability for w/c 5 Feb due to the ASLEF strike just announced.

Edit: Oh, Manors and Haymarket -- nevermind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just looked and it does offer the Super Offpeak single , you aren't looking at a restricted train are you?

Or one where Standard is "sold out"?

 

[AY1975]

I've just looked and it does offer the Super Offpeak single , you aren't looking at a restricted train are you?

Sorry, you're right, it does. I must have either overlooked something or looked at a restricted train, as you say.

 

[ainsworth74]

Unless I've overlooked something, if you key in a journey such as King's Cross to Manors or Haymarket on the LNER site for a date on or after 5th Feb, it offers you a First Class Off-Peak Single but doesn't appear to mention the Standard Class Super Off-Peak Single. Most other operators' sites do offer it, though.

I was able to find one for the 1400 on 15 February. Though amusingly it was cheaper than the Advance...

Image shows Super Off-Peak Single for £83.80 and Advance for £89.80.

 

[Bikeman78]

I suspect this is to stop people breaking their journey. But I've never understood why the railway has this thing against people dropping back a train to go for a McD's. I understand not wanting people to start short and save money, but that's not applicable to these as they're not pricing shorter trips higher than longer ones, it's like they've got it in for people who just want to stop off for sustenance.

Or stop off and have a catch up with a friend on the way. Perhaps it's a niche market but not at all unreasonable. I know people in Lancaster, Glasgow and Dundee. It's not unknown for me to stop off at either of the former on the way to the latter.