LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Starmill]

I notice a post upthread highlighted a ticket at a higher amount though I would suggest this is possibly an error

Was there anything specific suggesting it's an error or is that just your best guess? As you hint, there's absolutely nothing in writing that the £20 difference is something they're obliged to offer. Indeed LNER are perfectly free to offer zero 70 Min Advances for a period of a day if they so choose, same as how they'd be perfectly free to offer zero normal advances for some services.

While I appreciate it looks suspicious, I probably would give LNER the benefit of the doubt here, and the difference was intended to be £20 here

The reservation system that controls the quotas has a lot of weird behavior and it's very prone to TOCs making input mistakes with absolutely no protection for doing very bad things, let alone this

Is there some concrete evidence that the £20 difference is actually policy though, or just a tweet that says they are looking at it as part of the trial?

The trial is meant to be two years according to their publicity, though they could I suppose shout about it being successful (which by their criteria, namely increased income, it very likely will be) and roll it out sooner.

If they push through the incredibly unpopular timetable changes which will reduce frequency and capacity for regional journeys (e.g. Northallerton - Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed - Newcastle, Grantham - Newark and so on) in exchange for a 15 minute cut in Edinburgh - London journey times I would expect these new higher prices will result in a huge rise in revenue. Shamefully so. Both policies are plainly Treasury-driven ('financial-first') and damn the economic and strategic dimensions.

 

[trainstrainstr]

It’s entirely driven by the DFt if that’s what you mean by they

I think it would be very interesting for people to evidence whether this provides simpler fares or not, the issue being you can’t really ask TOCs because the RARs system is woefully unpredictable

 

[GoneSouth]

Including their own app, or have they sneakily turned that off for this trial?

Trainline also do splits. In both cases only the cheapest (so Advances), but that'll be a split involving Advances still capped by Super Off Peaks rather than the no doubt cranked up through ones.

I’m not going to say where but I have made good savings recently by splitting through super/offpeak tickets to 2 or more super/offpeak sections. These aren’t offered by Trainline because I think they’ll only split advance so I won’t use them and buy the individual tickets separately. It shouldn’t be that complicated to get good value, but the mess on trial with LNER is going to kill good value for ever.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that, while these new fares for now are only being trialled on these select LNER routes, there is the possibility that, if they deem the trial successful, it could be spread across all flows priced by LNER and potentially lead to the loss of off-peak/super off-peak fares on all those flows. This makes wonder, if this was to happen, how this would affect flows that LNER price but don't currently have advances available on them. Take a journey from Arlesey to Skegness (a journey I've made plenty of times in the past). Fares for this journey are priced by LNER, and the following are available for it:

- First Anytime Single (£83.80)
- Standard Anytime Single (£35.00)
- Off-Peak Single (£22.40)

Just these three fares and no advances at all, so it's a pretty simple set of fares. So if LNER were to press ahead with this new fare structure, what would happen to this particular set of fares? Would it lead to advances being added to remove the off-peak single? Could it lead to the loss of the off-peak single with no additional fares added? Or could it lead to LNER passing the fare set to another TOC (EMR would be the most likely replacement) and requesting for the off-peak fare to no longer be valid on LNER services (you can do this journey without using LNER, but it limits your options quite considerably)? Obviously I know no-one here can necessarily answer this, but it is food for thought. There are no doubt plenty of other LNER-priced flows that, much like this one, do not have any advances available on them and therefore could be facing the same quandary.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Which has obviously simplified things right?

I do wish the incoming Labour government were more pro public transport but sadly I don’t thing they’ll change much that the current clowns have implemented.

Public services are creaking, and whilst public spending will likely increase a bit (it has to really), things are going to remain pretty tight.

Don't expect vast swathes of new money heading the way of the railways. Other sectors will be higher up the list of priorities - adult and children's social care, health, and increasingly education, etc etc. And the Treasury will remain wary of the whole rail industry.

Once the new government get round to it, I'd think the changes are likely to be about reforming the industry and trying to drive down the huge cost base. (And yes the Treasury itself could do with some reform to free it from the classic 'Treasury mindset', but in a time of economic stagnation with the public purse strings incredibly stretched that's less likely to be happening.)

That's not too say this new fares regime is inevitable, but it's perhaps just worth tempering any hopeful thoughts that a new Labour government will come in and wave a magic wand.

 

[backontrack]

Don't expect vast swathes of new money heading the way of the railways. Other sectors will be higher up the list of priorities - adult and children's social care, health, and increasingly education, etc etc.

...and they're not going to be getting any either.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I’m not going to say where but I have made good savings recently by splitting through super/offpeak tickets to 2 or more super/offpeak sections. These aren’t offered by Trainline because I think they’ll only split advance so I won’t use them and buy the individual tickets separately. It shouldn’t be that complicated to get good value, but the mess on trial with LNER is going to kill good value for ever.

Out of interest does Trainsplit offer the splits in question? (Select the Flexible tab instead of the Fixed tab.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest does Trainsplit offer the splits in question? (Select the Flexible tab instead of the Fixed tab.)

Trainline will split walk-ups (there's one I use quite a lot) but it only shows the cheapest split it finds which with LNER will invariably be two Advances.

Trainsplit will do the ones you want as you can select Flexible, yes.

 

[Twingo37175]

Whilst only Doncaster to Leeds (and not the trial bit, YET), previously there used to always be "smartsave" options even on the night before when I am on days in the office. Recently they have been getting less and less, meaning only the standard day return (at £19.40) is available. Just looking for tomorrow, nothing again...however on here I can (with the Wakefield split) take nearly 25% of that cost.
I know smartsave was brought in as a publicity boom to save people having to look around or use the split ticket sites, but it seems those days maybe over.
If it wasn't for them being 3 carriages, I would stick with Northern.....

 

[johncrossley]

Seriously, who actually pays Anytime fares for the chosen fares for this pilot? They are unaffordable for all but the extremely rich. So I can only assume that the Flex fare will always be available right before departure, unless there are literally no seats available. You could argue that people will be forced onto Anytime fares, but that is simply impossible. People would rather defer travel or go by another means than pay those crazy Anytime fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seriously, who actually pays Anytime fares for the chosen fares for this pilot? They are unaffordable for all but the extremely rich. So I can only assume that the Flex fare will always be available right before departure, unless there are literally no seats available. You could argue that people will be forced onto Anytime fares, but that is simply impossible. People would rather defer travel or go by another means than pay those crazy Anytime fares.

Does any more frequent LNER user know if the Advance quotas are typically high enough that there are generally some right up to departure?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Trainline will split walk-ups (there's one I use quite a lot) but it only shows the cheapest split it finds which with LNER will invariably be two Advances.

Trainsplit will do the ones you want as you can select Flexible, yes.

Thanks... however what I was actually getting at was asking @GoneSouth whether the split(s) they mention in their post upthread (#363) but are, perhaps understandably, unwilling to divulge on here in public are aldo identified by Trainsplit.

Their post suggests they've perhaps only used the Trainline, but haven't yet come across or used Trainsplit (or indeed the forum's ticketing site, itself being a Trainsplit white-label).

 

[johncrossley]

Does any more frequent LNER user know if the Advance quotas are typically high enough that there are generally some right up to departure?

Even if they aren't now, they will have to be once there are no Super Off Peak fares. Otherwise they will be running a half empty train.

 

[Travelmonkey]

It's All a bit chaos but it does make the sleeper more attractive to me, if I'm gonna be rinsed at least I'll have a bed for the night. Not much good for any Newcastle trips but there is always Lumo to Newcastle or GC to Sunderland then metro/Northern/Bus if needs be.

 

[A S Leib]

Does any more frequent LNER user know if the Advance quotas are typically high enough that there are generally some right up to departure?

A few weeks ago I missed a Saturday morning train from Newcastle to Berwick and managed to get an advance ticket for another train less than an hour later to Edinburgh* when the train was north of Darlington.

*My destination was Galashiels and going via Berwick would have meant a longer journey.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Even if they aren't now, they will have to be once there are no Super Off Peak fares. Otherwise they will be running a half empty train.

Less than 1/9th of LNER passengers use an off peak ticket. This isn’t the major loss to revenue that people think it’ll be…

 

[Travelmonkey]

Less than 1/9th of LNER passengers use an off peak ticket. This isn’t the major loss to revenue that people think it’ll be…

Only 12% of people use ticket offices* just because the number is small don't make it any less important,

*for ticket purchase*

 

[Agent_Squash]

Only 12% of people use ticket offices* just because the number is small don't make it any less important,

*for ticket purchase*

There is no reasonable alternative to a ticket office’s provision, though.

For the vast majority of passengers, the Semi Flex is clearer in its purpose and more reflective of the flexibility long distance passengers desire. It also works far better on a railway where there isn’t really a peak, like LNER.

The pricing will be the deciding factor, but if they price fairly (which they’ll need to do against the airline competition), it’s most likely a far better product than Off Peak for the majority of passengers.

I would love to see the numbers of TUAG passengers on long distance routes, because I genuinely don’t think this will make much difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the vast majority of passengers, the Semi Flex is clearer in its purpose and more reflective of the flexibility long distance passengers desire.

Do you work for LNER? How can less flexibility be better?

The pricing will be the deciding factor, but if they price fairly

When Horne has stated in the past the whole point is to allow fare increases?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Do you work for LNER? How can less flexibility be better?

No, I don’t… bit of a bottom of the barrel argument?

Most people travelling long distance know roughly when they want to travel back. Few people, especially outside these forums, would pop out for a drink in York or have a practically all day travel window that they wish to travel in.

There isn’t a true peak on the ECML. So peak time pricing differentials don’t work. Joe Public would rather have a seat rather than ‘oh, I can travel any time of the day!’.

It also removes the cut offs regarding peak times. The ECML doesn’t have the Euston scrum, but there is no reason that long distance travel should be based around South East commuter times.

When Horne has stated in the past the whole point is to allow fare increases?

And what about the price reductions for those who don’t need the full day flexibility? Again, the amount of people who turn up and go on long distance is tiny.

Equally, when they’re in hot competition against the airlines and the car, they’re not going to be stupid enough to price themselves out of the market. They may ‘pull a Ryanair’ and up the fare on the day, but this won’t make a difference for the many. Who’ll just be glad they can get a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And what about the price reductions for those who don’t need the full day flexibility?

What price reductions?

The whole point of this (and I'm pretty confident I've read Horne saying so in Modern Railways in previous months, though in a slightly veiled manner) is removing the cap the Super Off Peak provides. The prices will skyrocket. If that wasn't the point, they'd just add the new ticket and not remove the Super Off Peak.

 

[Richardr]

Seriously, who actually pays Anytime fares for the chosen fares for this pilot? They are unaffordable for all but the extremely rich. So I can only assume that the Flex fare will always be available right before departure, unless there are literally no seats available. You could argue that people will be forced onto Anytime fares, but that is simply impossible. People would rather defer travel or go by another means than pay those crazy Anytime fares.

Is it the case that they will be available up until departure? I was looking at Kings Cross to Newcastle on 29 February around midday, and the booking on the LNER website showed both fixed and semi flexible as just 5 left on the 12 noon, 3 on the 12:30 and 4 on the 13:30 [standard].

Is that just to frighten people into booking now, or is that the actual number of such fares remaining six weeks to go and once they go only anytime is left?

 

[Agent_Squash]

What price reductions?

The whole point of this (and I'm pretty confident I've read Horne saying so in Modern Railways in previous months, though in a slightly veiled manner) is removing the cap the Super Off Peak provides. The prices will skyrocket. If that wasn't the point, they'd just add the new ticket and not remove the Super Off Peak.

There’s plenty of 70 Flex tickets available for below the price of the super off peak.

For example, on Edinburgh to Kings Cross, the cheapest starts at £51.20 - saving nearly £30!

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[ServerHoster]

There’s plenty of 70 Flex tickets available for below the price of the super off peak.

For example, on Edinburgh to Kings Cross, the cheapest starts at £51.20 - saving nearly £30!

There’s also plenty above the price of super off peak. For example:

This train is £95.80 for a 70 min flex single. Previously would’ve been a super off peak train.

 

[MTR380A]

I understand why LNER wants to implement this change. Removal of off-peak and super off-peak fares does make it simpler for many non-local passengers, as the definitions of off-peak and super off-peak depend on a lot of factors and are often a source of confusion.

I would suggest a few changes in order to make the new fare system more acceptable:

1. Lower the admin fee to £5, which is already higher than the actual cost;
2. Make advance/70flex refundable, or convertible to credits that can be used within 3 months; and
3. In case of cancellation or significant delay (say, over 30 mins), have the advance/flex70 tickets automatically upgraded to Anytime free of charge.

 

[Travelmonkey]

There is no reasonable alternative to a ticket office’s provision, though.

For the vast majority of passengers, the Semi Flex is clearer in its purpose and more reflective of the flexibility long distance passengers desire. It also works far better on a railway where there isn’t really a peak, like LNER.

The pricing will be the deciding factor, but if they price fairly (which they’ll need to do against the airline competition), it’s most likely a far better product than Off Peak for the majority of passengers.

I would love to see the numbers of TUAG passengers on long distance routes, because I genuinely don’t think this will make much difference.

It is literally the same argument, removing the ease of TUAG! If you think flex is an improvement I'm afraid your seriously deluded,

A far better product limiting freedom , 1 in 9 use off peaks currently that is less than 1% of TO users, still a substantial amount of travelers though, also these new tickers are nonrefundable too so good luck if you no longer need to travel rather than being a tenner out of pocket you can be substantially more,.

 

[johncrossley]

There’s plenty of 70 Flex tickets available for below the price of the super off peak.

For example, on Edinburgh to Kings Cross, the cheapest starts at £51.20 - saving nearly £30!

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Is that fare available 5 minutes before travel, like the Super Off Peak?

 

[MrJeeves]

Is that fare available 5 minutes before travel, like the Super Off Peak?

Advances are typically available up to 5 mins prior to departure on many TOCs, including LNER, subject to availability. So, yes probably.

 

[johncrossley]

Advances are typically available up to 5 mins prior to departure on many TOCs, including LNER, subject to availability. So, yes probably.

I mean the price quoted. Will you be able to get a Flex ticket 5 minutes before travel at a lower price than today's Super Off Peak?

 

[JonathanH]

One other question about this.

Semi-flex tickets are, like other advance tickets, forbidden for starting short and ending long. This potentially would mean that higher prices could be charged for London to Newcastle when there is an event in Newcastle, than London to Edinburgh.

Once expanded, stopping short or starting late will effectively be banned, other than on anytime tickets.

If intending to make use of the flexibility offered by your ticket, it is recommended that you digitally amend your booking.

If unable to amend your booking, you may still travel via alternative services as defined by the validity of your ticket.

'Break of journey' is not permitted under the terms and conditions of your ticket.

If you change trains mid-journey and travel on a train which also served your origin station en route, this train must have departed the origin station within the defined period of flexibility provided by the original ticket for your journey to be permitted.

You may only travel via alternative services beyond this validity where there is ticket acceptance in place or where you have missed a connection due to earlier delays to your journey.