Merseyside: New stations planned

[ivanhoe]

The time table 81 & 81A indicates a service every 10 minutes with a journey time of just on an hour end to end. The question of whether passengers travel the entire route really does matter as I doubt very few routes only carry passengers end to end, otherwise they would only have two stops.

Thanks for your slightly sarcastic comment about the two stops. It was inferred by previous posters that the 81 is unreliable. The timetable suggests otherwise.

 

[flypie]

There are a couple of links to the actual docs in this blog http://peterirate.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-train-to-future.html

 

[prod_pep]

I have to say the reliability of the 81/81A has improved a lot over this summer as newer double deck buses have replaced the appalling Y-reg single deck heaps the routes previously were lumbered with. The newer order are less prone to breakdowns and seem to keep to the timings of the route better than their predecessors.

While the 81/81A has never been Liverpool's most reliable bus route, especially in peak hours, it is much better of late. Using it is also a much less stressful experience with far better and larger buses now allocated.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Wavertreelad;1917067]The time table 81 & 81A indicates a service every 10 minutes with a journey time of just on an hour end to end. The question of whether passengers travel the entire route really does matter as I doubt very few routes only carry passengers end to end, otherwise they would only have two stops.


A dedciated bus corridor along Queens Drive and transport authority involvement in establishing a 'Quality Bus Service' would prove far more cost effective and a more flexible option than the vast sums, disruption, time and effort of re-establlishing the CLC Southport route.


Hang on a moment, the line to Gatacre survived for passenger services to the early 1970's but the decision to concentrate all services on Lime Street and the subsequent closure of Central high level resulted in the closure of the last service, that was supposed to be restored by Merseytravel when the tunnels in Liverpool were completed and services reopened to Garston.

Although it lingered on after the rest of the line closed to passengers it was more due to influence from the wealthier residents of the area making a protest rather than it's actual usage. Outside of the peaks the trains ran empty - a number of times I can recall being the only passenger riding round to Gateacre

I'd totally agree the journey time into the city centre from most of the station locations in the central area of the line would be quicker by bus, but then would this not be expected for what is a circular route around the city suburbs

..er yes. So why would anyone use it ? Not only would the bus be much quicker it would also drop them off at stops outside the shops etc and not involve an escalator trek at the end of the journey


From Gatacre the journey time is much longer, perhaps nearly an hour in peak. In fact my earlier point actually stated this and whilst I accept there may not be many passengers travelling the entire length to route, say Central to West Derby you would likely find a steady flow of passengers travelling part of the route providing there was a steady frequency.

I don't see where the flow of point to point journies would be... Clubmoor to Knotty Ash ? West Derby to Gateacre ? I can't see where the demand would come from.

.

 

[DJH1971]

Here is an article from the St Helens Star:

http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/11483272.New_stations_for_St_Helens_in_rail_vision/?ref=mr

 

[Wavertreelad]

Thanks for your slightly sarcastic comment about the two stops. It was inferred by previous posters that the 81 is unreliable. The timetable suggests otherwise.

I apologise the comment was not supposed to be sarcastic.

Wavertreelad;1917067]The time table 81 & 81A indicates a service every 10 minutes with a journey time of just on an hour end to end. The question of whether passengers travel the entire route really does matter as I doubt very few routes only carry passengers end to end, otherwise they would only have two stops.


A dedciated bus corridor along Queens Drive and transport authority involvement in establishing a 'Quality Bus Service' would prove far more cost effective and a more flexible option than the vast sums, disruption, time and effort of re-establlishing the CLC Southport route.

Hang on a moment, the line to Gatacre survived for passenger services to the early 1970's but the decision to concentrate all services on Lime Street and the subsequent closure of Central high level resulted in the closure of the last service, that was supposed to be restored by Merseytravel when the tunnels in Liverpool were completed and services reopened to Garston.

Although it lingered on after the rest of the line closed to passengers it was more due to influence from the wealthier residents of the area making a protest rather than it's actual usage. Outside of the peaks the trains ran empty - a number of times I can recall being the only passenger riding round to Gateacre

I'd totally agree the journey time into the city centre from most of the station locations in the central area of the line would be quicker by bus, but then would this not be expected for what is a circular route around the city suburbs
.

..er yes. So why would anyone use it ? Not only would the bus be much quicker it would also drop them off at stops outside the shops etc and not involve an escalator trek at the end of the journey

From Gatacre the journey time is much longer, perhaps nearly an hour in peak. In fact my earlier point actually stated this and whilst I accept there may not be many passengers travelling the entire length to route, say Central to West Derby you would likely find a steady flow of passengers travelling part of the route providing there was a steady frequency.

I don't see where the flow of point to point journies would be... Clubmoor to Knotty Ash ? West Derby to Gateacre ? I can't see where the demand would come from.

.

With new or relatively new buses operating the service on a 10 minute frequency I can't see what Merseytravel would be able to offer any better, assuming bus lanes are a non starter?

It is more than 40 years since the last regular passenger train ran to Gateacre and I can well believe it was not widely used outside peak. However, the needs of the population have changed, just how much is difficult to tell without a full survey and business case being established. I'm not disputing the fact that the bus into the city centre is likely to be quicker and perhaps more convenient from many central sections of the route, and for these journeys yes people will select the bus. However, as I posted originally, if the line was extended to Aintree and the North Mersey Line also reopened there would be plenty potential for intermediate journey's which at the moment often require two buses, and therefore tend to be expensive, let alone very time consuming and thus a barrier to connectivity and economic growth.

At this point I would also state that I think the prospects for reopening the line certainly beyond Gataecre are remote largely because other projects in the 30 year plan are more likely to succeed and benefit from the funding. One could also speculate that the line has deliberately been omitted from the plan, if it was felt that using the trackbed for the HS2/3 would make a better business case as suggested by the 20 Miles More plan than the cost and disruption to rebuilding Lime Street to accept HS2/3 trains.

In the meantime today's Liverpool is reporting

"An ambitious 30-year plan to expand Liverpool City Region’s rail network has been approved – with the possibility of a direct service from Liverpool to Scotland being explored.

Members of the combined authority rubber-stamped proposals to construct new train lines, reopen closed ones and build new stations – the locations yet to be revealed – as part of a blueprint for better passenger and freight services.

And they also discussed the Prime Minister David Cameron’s pledge to enact greater devolution of power across England, in the wake of the Scottish people’s decision to remain inside the UK.

David Brown, lead officer for transport, told the meeting this morning that improved rail links to towns around the North West and to Leeds and Birmingham could lead to new business opportunities, stimulate trade and help breathe new life into the region’s economy

He said: “We are keen to do development work now – we are not just waiting for funding to become available.”

He also presented an update on One North – commissioned by the five northern core city regions to identify the infrastructure needed.

He said getting northern cities better connected from east to west through road and rail will enable them to act as a ‘northern powerhouse’ and it was agreed a strategic investment plan will now be developed to deliver the project.

Liverpool Mayor Joe Anderson stressed the importance of links with the region and the forthcoming HS2 and HS3 network.

And Cllr Rob Polhill, Halton council leader, raised the possibility of a new train service from Liverpool to Scotland.

Cllr Liam Robinson, Merseytravel chairman, said: “It’s one of the key things we’re lobbying for, as part of the Rail North proposition, how we can get a TransPennine Express route from Liverpool going all the way to places like Glasgow and Edinburgh.”

Mr Brown added the city region has launched the Linking Liverpool campaign, which is backed by the ECHO, to secure a dedicated link to the high speed network.

The meeting heard the city region’s Local Enterprise Partnership (LEP) was awarded £232m, as part of government-allocated Growth Deal funding.

More than £180m of the funds secured are transport scheme related, while £31m has been secured for skills capital funding.

The remaining funding will be used to set up a Growth Hub, as well as supporting the International Festival for Business in 2016.

However, the plans are not yet ready, as the LEP is waiting for government guidance, and a task and finish group will now be formed.

Mayor Anderson said the authority needed to be ambitious when bidding for cash in a second round of Growth Deal grants before the general election next spring and “make sure we to get something sizeable and meaningful”.

Authority chairman and Wirral council leader Phil Davies said they secured £232m in July after asking for £250m, adding: “I think we did really well from the last Growth Deal.”

The meeting also heard discussions have taken place with other northern combined authorities and the Local Government Association about how to build the case for greater devolved political and financial powers.

The government is consulting on what further powers should be devolved and Liverpool City Region will respond after this ends on October 17.

Speaking after the meeting, Cllr Davies said: “We welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment today to devolving powers to city regions as part of the new constitutional settlement for our country.

“Liverpool City Region has shown that it can deliver, and we look forward to setting out our case over the coming weeks.”
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/ambitious-30-year-plan-expand-liverpool-7800162

 

[flypie]

The transport plan is all about improving connectivity and economic activity, so you have to looks at the activities being carried out in the area. There is currently a large amount of empty office space in Liverpool city centre, indicating a general decline in office base jobs due to greater use of technology. It must therefore be assumed the majority of those travelling into the city centre are involved in the retail trade or entertainment in broad terms. There is a general trend for new and small business to develop on the outskirts of the city centre where any large industry is also likely to be located as well as major facilities as the city area generally expands. There is a need to improve public transport links in some of these areas to facilitate easy travel, and a cross city alternative to what is currently a monopoly held by Arriva is perhaps something the city needs.

There is a lot of empty space in the City Centre because of the new offices built on Old Hall street not because of any recent decline. The major declined in offices was in the 60s and 70s as shipping and it associated banking and insurance declined and centralised. People move out of the old space because it is not suitable to new technology, no raised floors for cabling and in others the cat iron structure causes problems for WiFi, in the future LiFi should take case of some of this but not all.

 

[Wavertreelad]

There is a lot of empty space in the City Centre because of the new offices built on Old Hall street not because of any recent decline. The major declined in offices was in the 60s and 70s as shipping and it associated banking and insurance declined and centralised. People move out of the old space because it is not suitable to new technology, no raised floors for cabling and in others the cat iron structure causes problems for WiFi, in the future LiFi should take case of some of this but not all.

The "new" offices in Old Hall Street or St Pauls Square replaced older 60's & 70's built offices and the site of the Stadium which was demolished in the 1970/80's and had been a car park for many years. The Passport Office was built on the site of the old St John's Eye Hospital, I think in the late 1990's. The Echo building has been around since the 1970's, whilst the Plaza dates from the 1960's as was the former home of the Littlewoods empire. The last time I looked much of the new offices in St Pauls square were unoccupied, but there are many other buildings which were empty or near empty, for example Exchange Flags, Albion House (recently reopened as a hotel), Sun Alliance Building (now a hotel), India Buildings, Martins Bank Building, and of course the HMRC office at Queens Dock which has recently been sold and the Municipal Annex in Dale Street that is now a hotel and many more small offices across the city centre. The Cotton Exchange and Corn Exchange also had low occupancies but have been slowly refurbished with positive results. The result is that office rents in Liverpool are much lower than for example Manchester which whilst it might be good for tenants, but it also means investors are reluctant to spend huge amounts of money refurbishing large buildings with little prospect of recovering their investment which is why I believe Liverpool City Council placed a block on the building of new office accommodation in the city centre. Yes many of these empty or near empty buildings housed banking and insurance companies which moved out, mainly due to mergers, and advances in technology which made centralisation easier and call centres in India etc. In contrast whilst shipping has gone down a similar route, the city still has probably the largest number of shipping lines offices in the country, even though many bank room functions are now completed in India, China and the Phillipines. Those shipping lines include many of the top 10 global shipping lines, including Maersk Line (UK headoffice), MSC, CMA-CGM (UK Head Office), Hapag Lloyd, CSAV (UK head office - just acquired by Hapag Lloyd so further amalgamation likely next year), ACL (European head office - it also handles all the documentation for it's offices in Europe and North America and UK Grimaldi services), NYK (UK Head office), Zim Line (UK Head office). These liner shipping companies also support a large freight forwarding community, whilst the port in general supports a wide range ancillary jobs, although not all of these are in city centre.

Sadly, despite the success in the shipping industry the city has probably a net loss in the number of people employed in the industry but which should be reversed when Liverpool2 comes on stream towards the end of next year. However, many of these jobs are unlikely to be in the city centre as they are likely to be the distribution field and thus probably on the outskirts of the city.

 

[fowler9]

The "new" offices in Old Hall Street or St Pauls Square replaced older 60's & 70's built offices and the site of the Stadium which was demolished in the 1970/80's and had been a car park for many years. The Passport Office was built on the site of the old St John's Eye Hospital, I think in the late 1990's. The Echo building has been around since the 1970's, whilst the Plaza dates from the 1960's as was the former home of the Littlewoods empire. The last time I looked much of the new offices in St Pauls square were unoccupied, but there are many other buildings which were empty or near empty, for example Exchange Flags, Albion House (recently reopened as a hotel), Sun Alliance Building (now a hotel), India Buildings, Martins Bank Building, and of course the HMRC office at Queens Dock which has recently been sold and the Municipal Annex in Dale Street that is now a hotel and many more small offices across the city centre. The Cotton Exchange and Corn Exchange also had low occupancies but have been slowly refurbished with positive results. The result is that office rents in Liverpool are much lower than for example Manchester which whilst it might be good for tenants, but it also means investors are reluctant to spend huge amounts of money refurbishing large buildings with little prospect of recovering their investment which is why I believe Liverpool City Council placed a block on the building of new office accommodation in the city centre. Yes many of these empty or near empty buildings housed banking and insurance companies which moved out, mainly due to mergers, and advances in technology which made centralisation easier and call centres in India etc. In contrast whilst shipping has gone down a similar route, the city still has probably the largest number of shipping lines offices in the country, even though many bank room functions are now completed in India, China and the Phillipines. Those shipping lines include many of the top 10 global shipping lines, including Maersk Line (UK headoffice), MSC, CMA-CGM (UK Head Office), Hapag Lloyd, CSAV (UK head office - just acquired by Hapag Lloyd so further amalgamation likely next year), ACL (European head office - it also handles all the documentation for it's offices in Europe and North America and UK Grimaldi services), NYK (UK Head office), Zim Line (UK Head office). These liner shipping companies also support a large freight forwarding community, whilst the port in general supports a wide range ancillary jobs, although not all of these are in city centre.

Sadly, despite the success in the shipping industry the city has probably a net loss in the number of people employed in the industry but which should be reversed when Liverpool2 comes on stream towards the end of next year. However, many of these jobs are unlikely to be in the city centre as they are likely to be the distribution field and thus probably on the outskirts of the city.

Just for a bit of further info the Passport Office or 101 Old Hall Street was built in the early to mid 00's. It was originally mostly occupied bu Unysis who did the outsourced customer servicing work for Royal & SunAlliance down the road in New Hall Place (Which was at one time an excellent building to work in). We got shifted down the road to 101 fro New Hall Place some time in the mid 00's when it opened. It was originally mostly Unysis with the Passport office occupying ground, 1, 2 and half of 3. We occupied the rest. The outsourced business is now run I think by Diligentia and the share of the building has changed. Horrible place to work, all glass on the side that gets the sun for most of the day and a poor air conditioning system.

Anyway, sorry for straying off topic there.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Just for a bit of further info the Passport Office or 101 Old Hall Street was built in the early to mid 00's. It was originally mostly occupied bu Unysis who did the outsourced customer servicing work for Royal & SunAlliance down the road in New Hall Place (Which was at one time an excellent building to work in). We got shifted down the road to 101 fro New Hall Place some time in the mid 00's when it opened. It was originally mostly Unysis with the Passport office occupying ground, 1, 2 and half of 3. We occupied the rest. The outsourced business is now run I think by Diligentia and the share of the building has changed. Horrible place to work, all glass on the side that gets the sun for most of the day and a poor air conditioning system.

Anyway, sorry for straying off topic there.

I knew somebody who worked in the Passport Office and she made similar comments!

 

[fowler9]

I knew somebody who worked in the Passport Office and she made similar comments!

Not surprised. My brother works for the Passport Office now and nothing has changed. Where I work in the Matchworks the air conditioning is useless but to be fair it is an old building that has been updated and is currently getting a refurb so fingers crossed. 101 is a pretty new building so no excuses for the architects getting the temperature control so massively wrong.

Getting back on topic I think where I work now would benefit from improved transport links to the eastern side of Merseyside. I just honestly can't see it happening though, at least in the short term.

 

[Olaf]

There is a lot of talk about what could be done from various parties, but where is the LCR and/or Merseytravel with new projects?

Do they actually have a single project that is fully funded and authorised to proceed? Do they have any that have passed successfully through an options evaluation exercise?

 

[flypie]

There is a lot of talk about what could be done from various parties, but where is the LCR and/or Merseytravel with new projects?

Do they actually have a single project that is fully funded and authorised to proceed? Do they have any that have passed successfully through an options evaluation exercise?

Maghull North is funded http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/maghull-north-railway-station-come-7566700 as is the Halton curve http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/halton-curve-104m-upgrade-7366655

 

[martynbristow]

What's the plan for Maghull North
It seems a logical point to put in a turn back point to allow more trains to increase frequencies.

 

[Olaf]

Maghull North is funded http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/maghull-north-railway-station-come-7566700 as is the Halton curve http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/halton-curve-104m-upgrade-7366655

Thanks; so they are making some progress.

 

[Bevan Price]

Here is an article from the St Helens Star:

http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/11483272.New_stations_for_St_Helens_in_rail_vision/?ref=mr

I suspect that the Parkside freight terminal project could become a white elephant. With the recent expansion at Ditton, and the Peel proposals at Salford, will any rail freight operator want to serve any additional terminals in this area ?

 

[Y961 XBU]

i still think they should open the St Helens Central - St Helens Junction Link Line and build a Railway Station in the very populated Sutton Mannor area

 

[Wavertreelad]

I suspect that the Parkside freight terminal project could become a white elephant. With the recent expansion at Ditton, and the Peel proposals at Salford, will any rail freight operator want to serve any additional terminals in this area ?

And don't forget Peel's other project Knowsley 700

http://peellogistics.co.uk/sites/knowsley-700/#.VCOuzM-BE5s

 

[DJH1971]

i still think they should open the St Helens Central - St Helens Junction Link Line and build a Railway Station in the very populated Sutton Mannor area

It will never happen, yet a good idea.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

i still think they should open the St Helens Central - St Helens Junction Link Line and build a Railway Station in the very populated Sutton Manor area

Was there not a very short-lived station from 1936 to 1938 called Robins Lane Halt somewhere near to Sutton Oak....or am I in the wrong area ?

 

[Y961 XBU]

Was there not a very short-lived station from 1936 to 1938 called Robins Lane Halt somewhere near to Sutton Oak....or am I in the wrong area ?

come think of it there was a station up there once, the name of it escapes me tho!

 

[ivanhoe]

i still think they should open the St Helens Central - St Helens Junction Link Line and build a Railway Station in the very populated Sutton Mannor area

The two stations are 10 minutes apart by car (traffic issues, im sure)and 15 minutes by cycle. A quick bus link is surely the solution, if indeed there is a problem.

 

[flypie]

The two stations are 10 minutes apart by car (traffic issues, im sure)and 15 minutes by cycle. A quick bus link is surely the solution, if indeed there is a problem.

Using Train trams you could line up several of the disused sections of railway will little disruption.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/r/robins_lane_halt/index.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/gerards_bridge/index.shtml

 

[Bevan Price]

i still think they should open the St Helens Central - St Helens Junction Link Line and build a Railway Station in the very populated Sutton Mannor area

The line does not pass through Sutton Manor - the nearest station to Sutton Manor was Clock Face, on the St. Helens - Widnes line. Apart from the short-lived Robins Lane Halt, the other stations on the St. Helens Shaw St. (as it was) - St. Helens Junction line were Peasley Cross and Sutton Oak, once close to extensive areas of terraced housing most of which which has long vanished.

I agree the line should reopen, but only if it got a through service to Manchester - anything else would be of little attraction to potential passengers.

 

[theshillito]

i still think they should open the St Helens Central - St Helens Junction Link Line and build a Railway Station in the very populated Sutton Mannor area

Do you think a shuttle service using something like Stourbridge's Parry People Mover (plus additional through services at peaks probably) would work, or is it too far?

 

[Y961 XBU]

well the Green Party want a local service down there going Carr Mill (if built) St Helens Central - Peasley Cross - Clock Face - St Helens Junction - Lea Green, they also wanted a Manchester Train to go down there from the Junction to serve St Helens Central, that would be the main link required as theres no link from central to Manchester at all yet theres a number of Manchester Trains from the Junction thats out of the way

 

[8A Rail]

The line does not pass through Sutton Manor - the nearest station to Sutton Manor was Clock Face, on the St. Helens - Widnes line. Apart from the short-lived Robins Lane Halt, the other stations on the St. Helens Shaw St. (as it was) - St. Helens Junction line were Peasley Cross and Sutton Oak, once close to extensive areas of terraced housing most of which which has long vanished.

I agree the line should reopen, but only if it got a through service to Manchester - anything else would be of little attraction to potential passengers.

And also a diversionary route too as the line would be electrified (if ever something happened or engineering works between Winwick Junction and Wigan NW).

 

[Y961 XBU]

So really its a line with a lot of Advantages yet they dont want to take advantage of it!

 

[Bevan Price]

Do you think a shuttle service using something like Stourbridge's Parry People Mover (plus additional through services at peaks probably) would work, or is it too far?

Might be feasible technically, but I doubt that it would attract enough passengers, compared with having through trains to Manchester.

Also, the journey would be quite slow - the Parry People mover takes about 3 minutes to cover the Stourbridge branch which is only about ½ mile long. St. Helens to St. Helens Junction is 2 miles, so the journey time would be something around 12 minutes.

 

[flypie]

Might be feasible technically, but I doubt that it would attract enough passengers, compared with having through trains to Manchester.

Also, the journey would be quite slow - the Parry People mover takes about 3 minutes to cover the Stourbridge branch which is only about ½ mile long. St. Helens to St. Helens Junction is 2 miles, so the journey time would be something around 12 minutes.

I doubt it would be 12 minutes as most of the 3 minutes will be spent accelerating and decelerating. If it at max 40mph in the first journey should add 2.25 minutes for the extra.