Northern rail strike ?

[Clip]

This whole dispute is nothing to do about pay & conditions, This is about Northern trying (again) to shaft its Staff in the Short & long terms, Nothing to do with Pay and not much to do with conditions, please stop always trying to tuen it into the same old discussion, because this isn't

Its not worth biting really, it was quite obvious he missed the whole point of what's going on, but it doesn't surprise mme.

 

[Ferret]

O L Leigh, open your eyes. Some companies are expecting other companies to train their drivers for them to save money. Anybody with half a brain can see that (to use your own language). It should not come as a surprise to anyone with half a brain that this causes issues with staffing levels. How are LM or Northern supposed to know what VT's or Freightliner's recruiting requirements will be?! The notice period in any employment contract will be weeks, the training period for a replacement will be years. It's all well and good talking about rolling recruitment, but that will just be a case of guesswork where numbers are concerned - and there'll either still be too few, or too many newly qualified drivers. And if it's the latter, bang goes the overtime for those who do RDW.

 

[A-driver]

O L Leigh, open your eyes. Some companies are expecting other companies to train their drivers for them to save money. Anybody with half a brain can see that (to use your own language). It should not come as a surprise to anyone with half a brain that this causes issues with staffing levels. How are LM or Northern supposed to know what VT's or Freightliner's recruiting requirements will be?! The notice period in any employment contract will be weeks, the training period for a replacement will be years. It's all well and good talking about rolling recruitment, but that will just be a case of guesswork where numbers are concerned - and there'll either still be too few, or too many newly qualified drivers. And if it's the latter, bang goes the overtime for those who do RDW.

That's not true. I know people seem to think that companies like virgin, east coast, XC, freight liner etc never take in trainees but it is far from truthful.

Infact, certainly at east coast, a lot of the drivers are internal trainees from other grades. It is quite rare for them to advertise for external drivers, qualified or trainee. Same with virgin which is why they both got swamped recently with qualified drivers when they advertised for a handful of jobs.

As for saving money by poaching other drivers that is rubbish to as most of the training costs are not paid entirely by the TOC anyway-many companies will take on huge numbers of external trainees as they claim the training costs back in the grand scheme if things against tax. So whilst it costs 100k+ to train up a driver the TOC concerned rarely foots this bill. Take southern, southeastern, SWT etc. They hardly ever take on qualifieds and pretty much purely recruit trainees as they get all the training costs back - otherwise they would be bleeding out cash with the amount if trainees they train each year!

As for the last bit that's a very selfish and wrong attitude. Rest day work shouldn't ever be relied on (I know people who panic as they can't pay the bills/mortgage if they havnt done x number of rest days and that is a stupid position to find yourself in). If rest day work is going then its a good indication that more drivers are needed and that will in turn get someone out if unemployment and off benefits into a job. I'm not against RDW at all but you can't use it as an argument against employing more staff!

This thread isn't about drivers choosing to work for a different employer anyway. It's about agency staff covering work of other grades on northern.

And even so, there is far more to why drivers choose to move than money and t&cs. Look at internal depot moves-why is Cambridge depot half empty at FCC? It easily has some of the best work in the company, relatively easy turns (cambs-Lynn-London. Break. London-cambs etc) and good variation in traction and routes but no one wants to work their as few train drives live near Cambridge and if they do they have to drive into work most days. Where as hitchin depot has some of the worst work (often 3 or 4 moorgates a day) but it has a huge waiting list because everyone who lives on the peterbourgh line, in letchworth, Stevenage, welwyn, Hatfield etc can all get a train into work for 5am starts and home again at half 1 in the morning. A lot of FCC drivers at Bedford live around Leicester, derby, notts, Sheffield etc-they will obviously take any chance they get to work at depots closer to home.

 

[evoluzione]

How are LM or Northern supposed to know what VT's or Freightliner's recruiting requirements will be?! The notice period in any employment contract will be weeks.

As a trainee Northern Driver my notice period is six months.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I take it if a strike is planned it will be a 1 day event around the Bank Holidays ?

 

[Anvil1984]

I take it if a strike is planned it will be a 1 day event around the Bank Holidays ?

Well ballot papers havent been distributed yet so Easter bank holidays are safe

 

[Ferret]

A-Driver, I'm rather afraid it is true, and indeed, it's stated policy for one of the TOCs you mentioned.... Please check your facts.

PS, yes, I know overtime should never be relied on, but we all know some do it. Their choice of course, and for some it pays for an earlier retirement.

 

[A-driver]

A-Driver, I'm rather afraid it is true, and indeed, it's stated policy for one of the TOCs you mentioned.... Please check your facts.

PS, yes, I know overtime should never be relied on, but we all know some do it. Their choice of course, and for some it pays for an earlier retirement.

I'm afraid that what I stated was true to. Now I don't know about XC or freight liner but certainly know about east coast who have a lot more 'trainee' drivers than most people think. As for training costs-the companies don't foot the bill to training as I explained.

 

[Ferret]

I'm afraid that what I stated was true to. Now I don't know about XC or freight liner but certainly know about east coast who have a lot more 'trainee' drivers than most people think. As for training costs-the companies don't foot the bill to training as I explained.

Hmmmm, this will be better done by PM I think, but how can you say that something is true, and then in the next breath say you don't know about some companies you originally mentioned?!

 

[A-driver]

Hmmmm, this will be better done by PM I think, but how can you say that something is true, and then in the next breath say you don't know about some companies you originally mentioned?!

Well I didn't say that I knew none if them a actually had a policy of only poaching drivers but I am genuinely very surprised to hear that it is policy and that they actually don't do any training at all themselves. As I say, I only know for east coast but an surprised that one of those companies I mentioned officially poaches drivers.

 

[tbtc]

This whole dispute is nothing to do about pay & conditions, This is about Northern trying (again) to shaft its Staff in the Short & long terms, Nothing to do with Pay and not much to do with conditions, please stop always trying to tuen it into the same old discussion, because this isn't

I only said that it was about conditions because you quoted the Union letter regarding

Failure to agree on terms and conditions

I thought that you were unhappy that Northern were paying Agency staff "Practically Minimum wage"...

when Jobs like that has always been used traditionally as a means for someone like a guard/driver who can no longer do safety critical work through no fault of there own (Ill health, injury etc.) to stay in employment. By taking this option away and employing the likes of G4s they can put someone who has had years of service on the scrapheap and put an agency member of staff there

...as in "they are paying some Agency staff under £10/ hour to do a job that used to be done by a salaried Guard/ Driver who'd cost the company £30,000/ year+".

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I only said that it was about conditions because you quoted the Union letter regarding



I thought that you were unhappy that Northern were paying Agency staff "Practically Minimum wage"...



...as in "they are paying some Agency staff under £10/ hour to do a job that used to be done by a salaried Guard/ Driver who'd cost the company £30,000/ year+".

more like under £7 an hour with no holiday, sickness benefits aka a Zero Hour contract like they already do with 40+ employees I am sure that would save a fortune, however just ask anyone here what their opinion of G4S is regarding Barriers/Gateline etc. But that is fine by you as you have no problems with people being exploited by multinationals like G4s and it is obviously fine by you that an experienced railway worker gets put on the scrapheap along with their years of experience because of no fault of their own...Wow! what a charming person you are Tbtc.

 

[tbtc]

more like under £7 an hour with no holiday, sickness benefits aka a Zero Hour contract like they already do with 40+ employees I am sure that would save a fortune, however just ask anyone here what their opinion of G4S is regarding Barriers/Gateline etc. But that is fine by you as you have no problems with people being exploited by multinationals like G4s and it is obviously fine by you that an experienced railway worker gets put on the scrapheap along with their years of experience because of no fault of their own...Wow! what a charming person you are Tbtc.

So it is about terms and conditions then?

Thanks for clearing up.

 

[O L Leigh]

Ferret: I can see you've got a bee in your bonnet about this issue and it seems to be causing you to miss some of the salient facts.

As I mentioned in my previous post, you cannot restrict the movement of individuals from one company to another. This is enshrined in employment law. In addition, the railways are no different in this regard to any other industry. If a company can fill it's vacancies by recruiting qualified staff then why shouldn't it. There is nothing immoral or illegal about it. Just because a company is in a position to do this it doesn't mean that there is necessarily a policy. BA and other airlines do it, as do other industries.

But you ignore my main point. LM, Northern and others are simply exposing their inadequacies. Other TOCs lose qualified drivers to "competitors" and seem to manage, so what makes LM or Northern so special? They either accept that it is a fact of life and do something about it or they can stick their heads in the sand and bitch about it. There is no great conspiracy here.

O L Leigh

 

[ANorthernGuard]

So it is about terms and conditions then?

Thanks for clearing up.

Its about putting an experienced railway worker who through no fault of their own on the scrapheap and replacing them with an untrained minimum wage G4S employee who gets treated like meat with no sickness or holiday benefits to save a few quid.. excellent twisting of words tbtc. its about peoples future something that you really don't give a damn about luckily, many more people do give a damn. I can look at myself in the mirror if thats how you feel things should be I don't know how you can.

 

[northwichcat]

Relating to the pay and conditions and cheap agency staff - when a ticket office is closed for refurbishment on the West side Northern seem to make sure there are G4S people with mobile ticket machines at the station. However, the person(s) who is usually in the ticket office are still at work but not selling tickets. On occasions they're sat in a ticket office at another station on the line but still not selling tickets because the other station doesn't have a spare ticket machine. That isn't cost effective or saving money.

Would ticket office staff be happy to work selling tickets from mobile ticket machines outside the station building or do they not want to do it and that's why G4S get brought in?

 

[tbtc]

Its about putting an experienced railway worker who through no fault of their own on the scrapheap and replacing them with an untrained minimum wage G4S employee who gets treated like meat with no sickness or holiday benefits to save a few quid.. excellent twisting of words tbtc. its about peoples future something that you really don't give a damn about luckily, many more people do give a damn. I can look at myself in the mirror if thats how you feel things should be I don't know how you can.

Take out all of the emotive stuff about "multinationals" and "scrapheaps" and this boils down to whether Northern use staff costing around twice as much (when you include terms and conditions like pensions) or not.

Maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's a bad thing, but we need to be honest about what's going on with this strike. If we can't get all tickets checked on trains (and apparently we can't) then do we have a "barrier" staffed by people earning a higher salary or a lower salary?

 

[A-driver]

Take out all of the emotive stuff about "multinationals" and "scrapheaps" and this boils down to whether Northern use staff costing around twice as much (when you include terms and conditions like pensions) or not.

Maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's a bad thing, but we need to be honest about what's going on with this strike. If we can't get all tickets checked on trains (and apparently we can't) then do we have a "barrier" staffed by people earning a higher salary or a lower salary?

Do you really expect the unions to stand aside and let agency staff take over what they do nothing to protect their members?

If companies are going to attack their staff in these ways then the unions will kick up a fuss-its what they are there for and if they can't reach a compromise with talking to the company then this is the next step.

Don't be soi quick to attack the unions-the company are equally responsible for any disruption.

 

[Ferret]

I'd rather that any barrier staff are given adequate training for the role they are doing. Not to put too fine a point on it where G4S are concerned, there seems to be an appropriate quote regarding the payment of peanuts resulting in the employment of monkeys! In what way can we argue that's good for anyone, apart from a small minority of shareholders?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Would ticket office staff be happy to work selling tickets from mobile ticket machines outside the station building or do they not want to do it and that's why G4S get brought in?

I would do the selling rather than go somewhere else, but then my station isn't exactly a hostile enviroment. The trouble is that I am not trained on Advantix and sending me on a course to learn it probably isn't worth the time to the company.

...as in "they are paying some Agency staff under £10/ hour to do a job that used to be done by a salaried Guard/ Driver who'd cost the company £30,000/ year+".

£30,000/year that the company is already spending........

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I would do the selling rather than go somewhere else, but then my station isn't exactly a hostile enviroment. The trouble is that I am not trained on Advantix and sending me on a course to learn it probably isn't worth the time to the company.

£30,000/year that the company is already spending........

Redeployed staff in other industries , even in the public sector, are only paid their old wage for a limited period (months to perhaps 3-5 years depending on the pay bands for new and old roles) ... and if their pay in the new role is lower at the end of the deployment protection then they take a pay cut.

many employers would just make someone redundant who cannot continue in a role even with reasonable adjustments and adaptations ...

The point is the TOC is ' already paying' for a member of traincrew not for a barrier line / ticket office clerk ... if someone can't work in a particular role or grade why should they be paid for that grade if they are redeployed ...

 

[mac]

Is it possible that the unions have got the wages so high now that the companies now think they have to us agency staff to reduce costs, you don't have to go back many years and rail staff only got a normal wage not what they get now.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Is it possible that the unions have got the wages so high now that the companies now think they have to us agency staff to reduce costs, you don't have to go back many years and rail staff only got a normal wage not what they get now.

So what do you call a normal wage?

 

[A-driver]

Redeployed staff in other industries , even in the public sector, are only paid their old wage for a limited period (months to perhaps 3-5 years depending on the pay bands for new and old roles) ... and if their pay in the new role is lower at the end of the deployment protection then they take a pay cut.

many employers would just make someone redundant who cannot continue in a role even with reasonable adjustments and adaptations ...

The point is the TOC is ' already paying' for a member of traincrew not for a barrier line / ticket office clerk ... if someone can't work in a particular role or grade why should they be paid for that grade if they are redeployed ...

Well you have completely missed the point here anyway.

If you can no longer do your job and are given another less paid job then you get paid that lower wage for the job. Most companies offer a 'parachute' scheme where your wages are gradually lowered over months or years.

It's only a case that anyone who has been in the driving grade for 25years (I think it's 25 but around that) and is no longer medically fit will be paid their drivers wage for the rest of their career with that TOC.

But let's not let any actual facts get In the way of a union rant!

Also, ticket office staff, gateline and platform staff arnt paid that much anyway, often in the 12-20k backet.

 

[mac]

Average wage I would think is maybe £8 per hour so based on 35 hour week £280 or £14560 per year. I think I have seen on this site of some train conductors on £30000 then you have sick pay, holidays pensions all ends up with a very big bill this cannot go on for ever before some account thinks of ways to cut costs

 

[A-driver]

Average wage I would think is maybe £8 per hour so based on 35 hour week £280 or £14560 per year. I think I have seen on this site of some train conductors on £30000 then you have sick pay, holidays pensions all ends up with a very big bill this cannot go on for ever before some account thinks of ways to cut costs

Train drivers and train guards are not minimum wage jobs though, they require a lot of training, work and skill.

Or are you saying any job at all that pays above minimum wage must stop? Teachers, police officers, firefighters, paramedics etc all earn above minimum wage-they are at cost to the tax payers, should that stop to?

As for other rail staff, many arnt on much above minimum wage.

I think you are just trolling as you actually have nothing at all useful to add to this discussion.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

So being responsible for the safety of hundreds of people at a time, knowing hundreds of miles of routes, basic traction knowledge, customer service skills, retail knowledge. Working extreme start and finishing times and dealing with drugged up, pi88ed up idiots every weekend is worth 8 quid an hour!....... Ok then lol ridiculous

 

[A-driver]

So being responsible for the safety of hundreds of people at a time, knowing hundreds of miles of routes, basic traction knowledge, customer service skills, retail knowledge. Working extreme start and finishing times and dealing with drugged up, pi88ed up idiots every weekend is worth 8 quid an hour!....... Ok then lol ridiculous

I wouldn't drop to his level. This 'mac' guy apparently knows all there is to know about our jobs and knows for a fact that we are vastly overpaid and its all down to the unions.

It's very sad that so many threads on this forum end up going this way because of people with such a blinkered factually inaccurate view of things. Sadly the problem with Internet forums is that no knowledge is actually required before you post very offensive things.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And its usually the same people who bring it down to that level. And they are almost always people who have never worked on the railway. Sad but true

 

[Ferret]

I wouldn't drop to his level. This 'mac' guy apparently knows all there is to know about our jobs and knows for a fact that we are vastly overpaid and its all down to the unions.

It's very sad that so many threads on this forum end up going this way because of people with such a blinkered factually inaccurate view of things. Sadly the problem with Internet forums is that no knowledge is actually required before you post very offensive things.

Indeed! Funny how the same things crop up at the very mention of a strike isn't it?