Pathfinder Tours Railtour Programme 2022

[bleeder4]

So, as was probably to be expected after all the talk about DRS and DBC cutting back, the first Pathfinder trip to use WCR as the operator has now been released.

The Settle and Carlisle - Pathfinder Railtours

Take a breathtaking journey through the scenic Cumbrian Fells along the famous Settle - Carlisle Railway. Joining Stations: Newport (South Wales), Bristol Parkway, Cam & Dursley, Cheltenham Spa, Worcestershire Parkway, Bromsgrove, Birmingham New Street, *Stafford, *Crewe

www.pathfindertours.co.uk

"Motive power is expected to be a pair of class 37 diesel locomotives throughout, courtesy of West Coast Railways"

 

[Iskra]

So, as was probably to be expected after all the talk about DRS and DBC cutting back, the first Pathfinder trip to use WCR as the operator has now been released.

The Settle and Carlisle - Pathfinder Railtours

Take a breathtaking journey through the scenic Cumbrian Fells along the famous Settle - Carlisle Railway. Joining Stations: Newport (South Wales), Bristol Parkway, Cam & Dursley, Cheltenham Spa, Worcestershire Parkway, Bromsgrove, Birmingham New Street, *Stafford, *Crewe

www.pathfindertours.co.uk

"Motive power is expected to be a pair of class 37 diesel locomotives throughout, courtesy of West Coast Railways"

Interesting that it is just loco’s they are providing and not stock too. Can see it selling well as it is a classic route and there could be a novelty factor for Pathfinder customers with the WCRC 37’s.

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting that it is just loco’s they are providing and not stock too.

Pathfinder and Riviera are under common ownership. They are not going to hire stock when they already have their own.

 

[Iskra]

Pathfinder and Riviera are under common ownership. They are not going to hire stock when they already have their own.

I know. The interesting aspect is that WCRC agreed to just do loco’s when they could have dictated that their own stock is used and potentially made more money…

 

[43 302]

I wonder if it is WC operated or perhaps DB operated with WC tractors. Also £120 seems a bit steep. Will probably still book it though!

 

[bleeder4]

I wonder if it is WC operated or perhaps DB operated with WC tractors. Also £120 seems a bit steep. Will probably still book it though!

I've never known WCR provide locos for trains they're not operating. Happy to be corrected though.

 

[Nickdeltic01]

I think this is the first time that Pathfinder have used WCR isn't it? Probably because of the whole thing with DRS pulling out of charters.

 

[JonathanH]

I've never known WCR provide locos for trains they're not operating. Happy to be corrected though.

They do however provide locomotives to haul rakes of stock provided by another stock owner (eg SRPS).

 

[47827]

I think this is the first time that Pathfinder have used WCR isn't it? Probably because of the whole thing with DRS pulling out of charters.

Definitely not. Before you ask I can't remember specific dates and railtours. Six Bells Junction listings have some though. In the early to mid 2000s rings a bell.

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if it is WC operated or perhaps DB operated with WC tractors. Also £120 seems a bit steep. Will probably still book it though!

£120 is around the going rate for Pathfinder tours in standard class these days

 

[47827]

£120 is around the going rate for Pathfinder tours in standard class these days

You'd have to pay me more than that to want to be on a tour hauled by those these days... Joking aside...

You've got a hell of a puff before even setting off from Bristol on a job like this. 2x engines light Carnforth to Burton (the locos aren't based with the stock. That is a driver shift alone, 2 shifts if there isn't a driver available who signs the full route and they have to swap at say Crewe. Then your 120 mile ECS to Bristol (probably 2 drivers + 1x guard used as company policy which has proven to be a sensible mode of operating many times). Finally your 600+ mile railtour sets off, perhaps after stabling with crews racking up several hundred quid in hotel costs (probably between 6 and 8 drivers plus 3 guards likely to be needed on the day depending on who is available and their route cards etc along with any costs incurred for travel and hotels for each shift on the list) and then the above ECS and light engine moves back with all the same costs and caveats and locos reaching Carnforth having topped well over 1000 miles in overall movements. Some of the cheaper priced tours quoted above interestingly contain as few as half or less of the overall staffing requirements yet people expect all of the trains that are advertised to be cheaper or as cheap. I can recall that the majority of SRPS trains are half or less the movement mileage of this PF train off Bristol with less crew involved and light engines from and to Carnforth to Bo'ness generally now reduced to a few times a year and sometimes tied in with other contract work (such as line patrols or snow standby work) to enable the saving to be passed on to other parties. Riviera (regardless of ownership) keeps its PF accounts entirely separate to Riviera, for reasons that are credible as I recall, and the stock is hired to PF potentially more than doubling the costs associated with crewing, locomotives and operational charges if the most recent figures touted to me from reliable parties are to be trusted. Typically with the day to day running costs of PF added in on top their profits will be in filling the last 2 or 3 carriages of a full Mk1 set and the fares matched with such projections factoring in all other overheads, as well as unexpected extra costs that commonly crop up.

£120 is expensive for standard compared with fares 10 and 20 years back but I will blame outside inflationary and cost of living factors ranging from unstable oil/diesel prices, increased parts costs, employment costs (the whole cherbang).

 

[Iskra]

Perhaps tour operators could follow BLS’ lead and run the ECS in passenger service to bring in more revenue to help keep the cost down for the main tour? It also provides a budget tour option for those not wanting to pay the price for the main tour and helps those on the main tour with travel to the origin point.

 

[47827]

Perhaps tour operators could follow BLS’ lead and run the ECS in passenger service to bring in more revenue to help keep the cost down for the main tour? It also provides a budget tour option for those not wanting to pay the price for the main tour and helps those on the main tour with travel to the origin point.

The reason many don't and never will is that if you do that all of the following, and a few things I've no doubt forgotten to mention, then apply:
*Staffing/Stewarding requirements (with all the challenges that entails and for some promoters the tour manager/business owner works in the office during the week)
*Cleaning requirements (how substantial depends on passenger numbers)
*Servicing/tanking for the rolling stock (soon this will also entail emptying toilet tanks - by spring 2023)
*ECS moves often run at unsociable hours or overnight making all of the above even more hassle
*Many ECS moves unlikely to attract enough business to make the downsides of opening them up less worthwhile
*Potential cost implications in some cases to doing the above
*Removes much of the flexibility of schedules, stops can be required and rerouting at short notice can cause hassle if passengers being carried

There are some/plenty of instances where it can and should be looked at but it's down to the operator and promoter to consider as those looking in from the outside rarely have the full details to be able to consider.

 

[Graham H]

Mini tours do happen. Here on the south coast we get quite a few arriving excursions but apart from Eastleigh (very early dep and late returns) not a lot starts down here. I appreciate the need to clean and water stock but it can be done. Last year Steam Dreams ran a Paddington to Chichester train for one of the Goodwood festivals and during the lengthy layover ran a fairly short minitour to Littlehampton and Southampton at a competitive price and that was pretty much full of locals of all ages enjoying a bit of steam. More recently the Hastings diesel was down at Portsmouth and for reasons that were never quite clear ran ECS all the way to Littlehampton and back which would have been quite popular. I think whats needed is a trip that has a long layover because punters are visiting some special attraction (like a day out in Portsmouth or one of the many Goodwood events) thus offering a minitour chance of maybe 3 hours. Of course in the old days BR had plenty of otherwise idle coaching stock and freight locos at weekends hence the bargain price Merrymakers that I remember from the 1970's and 80's.

 

[47827]

FYI This Pathfinder one in 2008 was the most recent one I could find, but there may have been others https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/

Sister company Torbay Express did some to Kingswear as recently as 2019 I think although think that part of things was disbanded recently during the covid era with the set now almost exclusively focused on Pathfinder trips instead.

 

[43 302]

68018, 88002 & 57309 quoted for this Saturday on the "other" forum.

Paths in for Saturday's tour.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U68002/2022-02-19/detailed

Realtime Trains | 106P 1401 Lincoln Central to Didcot Parkway | 19/02/2022

Real-time train running information for 106P 1401 departure from Lincoln Central to Didcot Parkway on 19/02/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[50002Superb]

Does anyone have the timings for Saturday please?

They still don’t appear to be showing on the Railtour Info website that I tend to use.

Does anyone have the timings for Saturday please?

They still don’t appear to be showing on the Railtour Info website that I tend to use.

Sorry just seen the post above.

 

[LRV3004]

IF tomorrow’s DRS tour runs, it SHOULD (subject to the usual caveats) be: 57309, 66434, 68018 and 88002.

 

[43 302]

IF tomorrow’s DRS tour runs, it SHOULD (subject to the usual caveats) be: 57309, 66434, 68018 and 88002.

As posted above, minus the 66.

 

[LRV3004]

As posted above, minus the 66.

Why minus the 66?

 

[warwickshire]

As posted above, minus the 66.

Tour is running However its been delayed at oxford on Saturday morning 19th February for around a hour and a half now. Time off posting 0755 hours.
Looks like issues still around wolvercote Junction area maybe with ongoing storm damage?
Anyone know any further information for this delay?

 

[Watershed]

The Link N' Chord tour is running today, albeit with a heavy delay after being held at Oxford for more than 1.5 hours, due to a tree having fallen on the line between Heyford and Aynho Jn. Now back on the move after XC 1Z04 passed through successfully.

I imagine the tour will have to be curtailed in some way to make up the delay.

 

[Iskra]

Today’s tour was always going to be a risk, pretty brave running it really. Hope they can make time up and cover as much of the planned itinerary as possible

 

[warwickshire]

Today’s tour was always going to be a risk, pretty brave running it really. Hope they can make time up and cover as much of the planned itinerary as possible

Well done to drs for making it possible.
68018 on front rake off brown mk1 coaches with red coach on rear with 66434 on rear ie locomotive.
Just passed me at Warwick Parkway.

 

[Whistler40145]

You'd have to pay me more than that to want to be on a tour hauled by those these days... Joking aside...

You've got a hell of a puff before even setting off from Bristol on a job like this. 2x engines light Carnforth to Burton (the locos aren't based with the stock. That is a driver shift alone, 2 shifts if there isn't a driver available who signs the full route and they have to swap at say Crewe. Then your 120 mile ECS to Bristol (probably 2 drivers + 1x guard used as company policy which has proven to be a sensible mode of operating many times). Finally your 600+ mile railtour sets off, perhaps after stabling with crews racking up several hundred quid in hotel costs (probably between 6 and 8 drivers plus 3 guards likely to be needed on the day depending on who is available and their route cards etc along with any costs incurred for travel and hotels for each shift on the list) and then the above ECS and light engine moves back with all the same costs and caveats and locos reaching Carnforth having topped well over 1000 miles in overall movements. Some of the cheaper priced tours quoted above interestingly contain as few as half or less of the overall staffing requirements yet people expect all of the trains that are advertised to be cheaper or as cheap. I can recall that the majority of SRPS trains are half or less the movement mileage of this PF train off Bristol with less crew involved and light engines from and to Carnforth to Bo'ness generally now reduced to a few times a year and sometimes tied in with other contract work (such as line patrols or snow standby work) to enable the saving to be passed on to other parties. Riviera (regardless of ownership) keeps its PF accounts entirely separate to Riviera, for reasons that are credible as I recall, and the stock is hired to PF potentially more than doubling the costs associated with crewing, locomotives and operational charges if the most recent figures touted to me from reliable parties are to be trusted. Typically with the day to day running costs of PF added in on top their profits will be in filling the last 2 or 3 carriages of a full Mk1 set and the fares matched with such projections factoring in all other overheads, as well as unexpected extra costs that commonly crop up.

£120 is expensive for standard compared with fares 10 and 20 years back but I will blame outside inflationary and cost of living factors ranging from unstable oil/diesel prices, increased parts costs, employment costs (the whole cherbang).

West Coast might only be providing the traction, drivers could be hired in from another FOC

 

[47827]

West Coast might only be providing the traction, drivers could be hired in from another FOC

Possible but that would likely be an even more expensive way of doing things so would expect not.

 

[LRV3004]

I imagine the tour will have to be curtailed in some way to make up the delay.

Looks like they've curtailed the break at Lincoln - the return leg has set off and Real Time Trains shows that the stock didn't go empty for servicing.

 

[47827]

Looks like they've curtailed the break at Lincoln - the return leg has set off and Real Time Trains shows that the stock didn't go empty for servicing.

Train additionally platformed at Newark for 45 ish min break instead whilst some sort of booked loco switch took place I believe. The price of running these out of place multi traction tours on the modern railway sadly as little give in the operation bar all the pathing stops that are generally there for a reason. With yesterday's weather it was probably almost as good as the day could go so hopefully most people will be understanding of that. You can quite see why DRS are happy to call it a day/take a long break (delete as applicable whilst their passenger license exists).

 

[LRV3004]

Train additionally platformed at Newark for 45 ish min break instead whilst some sort of booked loco switch took place I believe. The price of running these out of place multi traction tours on the modern railway sadly as little give in the operation bar all the pathing stops that are generally there for a reason. With yesterday's weather it was probably almost as good as the day could go so hopefully most people will be understanding of that. You can quite see why DRS are happy to call it a day/take a long break (delete as applicable whilst their passenger license exists).

At least some sort of break was had! For me, the multi-traction “spin and win” tours just aren’t what they used to be (whenever they run).
I didn’t even know the tour today was actually running until the Thursday just gone, and I work for DRS!!!! It is my understanding that we are looking to move away from charter operation altogether, but not sure when.

 

[43 302]

At least some sort of break was had! For me, the multi-traction “spin and win” tours just aren’t what they used to be (whenever they run).
I didn’t even know the tour today was actually running until the Thursday just gone, and I work for DRS!!!! It is my understanding that we are looking to move away from charter operation altogether, but not sure when.

Any scope for 68 hauled tours operated by someone else do you think? If not it would make 68 tours quite hard to do! Sure some FL & ROG drivers sign them but I'm not sure about DB.