Quarantine

[Tetchytyke]

Do you have a source for this please?

Visits to the IOM Prison have been temporarily suspended after a self-isolating prisoner tested positive for Covid-19 on Saturday.

Government says the individual has been kept in quarantine since their arrest with officials adding the contact tracing team has confirmed the risk to the wider community is 'extremely low'.

All new entrants to the prison are housed in a separate wing for 14 days before joining the wider prison population.

Minister for Home Affairs, Graham Cregeen MHK, says: "We have planned and are fully prepared for cases of COVID-19 at the Isle of Man Prison and have robust and rigorous protocols in place to protect prisoners, staff and visitors.

"Suspending visiting to the prison is just a precaution to reduce the already minimal risk that the virus could spread.

"Prison officers assigned to newly arrived inmates in self-isolation are required to wear full PPE, maintain a safe distance, and practice scrupulous hand-washing. Free tests for COVID-19 are available to frontline workers, including prison officers."

Contact tracing is already underway to identify anyone who may have come into contact with the individual.

It means the total number of cases on Island currently stands at three, all of which are in self-isolation.

Prison visits suspended following Covid-19 case

Visits to the IOM Prison have been temporarily suspended after a self-isolating prisoner tested positive for Covid-19 on Saturday.

www.three.fm

It might not be one of the welders, but they're the most likely given the information.

if it doesn't go through the population we'll carry on like this for years until it does.

Perhaps that's what "living with the virus" looks like.

I would also point out that, unlike some other viruses, SARS-COV-2 can't live for long outside a host. 72 hours at the most. Soap is also extremely effective in destroying it. So, actually, a very strict lockdown can work wonders.

 

[Richard Scott]

Perhaps that's what "living with the virus" looks like.

I sincerely hope not. Why are so many so paranoid, it's now showing that it isn't as bad as feared. We cannot keep ruining lives for something with such a low mortality rate. Know plenty of older people who are fed up with restrictions. You expect them to live the rest of their lives like this? If so very unfair.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You expect them to live the rest of their lives like this? If so very unfair.

Why do you seem to think the only options are "no restrictions at all" or "loads of restrictions for the rest of eternity"? We are only six months into the pandemic.

We saw in July and August what happens when you try and rush relaxation of the rules. In simple terms, the UK now only has completely unrestricted travel to one country- Sweden- because it tried to rush things.

"We need to live with the virus" doesn't mean we should pretend it doesn't exist and bugger the consequences.

 

[jtuk]

"We need to live with the virus" doesn't mean we should pretend it doesn't exist and bugger the consequences.

What consequences?

 

[Bikeman78]

Why do you seem to think the only options are "no restrictions at all" or "loads of restrictions for the rest of eternity"? We are only six months into the pandemic.

We saw in July and August what happens when you try and rush relaxation of the rules. In simple terms, the UK now only has completely unrestricted travel to one country- Sweden- because it tried to rush things.

"We need to live with the virus" doesn't mean we should pretend it doesn't exist and bugger the consequences.

Isn't pretty much what happened in 1968? I wasn't alive then but I'll ask my parents next time I talk to them.

 

[duncanp]

And now Wales is considering quarantine for visitors from other parts of the UK England with high infection rates.

I wonder how they are going to enforce this given that there are no border controls when crossing into Wales.

How do you determine where in the UK someone has come from when they enter Wales? eg Someone travelling from London to Aberystwyth would have to change in Birmingham.

Would be interesting at Knighton, for example, where the station is in Shropshire, but the town is in Powys.

Wales could force quarantine on visitors from rest of the UK

The plans would affect people from regions with high levels of coronavirus and are being "actively considered"

www.telegraph.co.uk

The Welsh Government is "actively considering" imposing quarantine restrictions on people travelling into Wales from areas of the UK with high levels of coronavirus.
First Minister Mark Drakeford had previously called on Prime Minister Boris Johnson to introduce travel restrictions for people in areas of England under local lockdown.
In Wales, people must not enter or leave an area subjected to such restrictions without a reasonable excuse - which does not include travelling for a holiday.
Health Minister Vaughan Gething told a press conference: "We're actively considering what we should do and I've discussed it this morning with the First Minister.
"We have quarantine regulations for international travel.
"So for some of the hotspot areas in the north of England, the North East and North West, and the West Midlands, if they were other countries or territories, we would have quarantine regulations for them to return to the UK."
Two-thirds of the population of Wales are now living in lockdown, including the country's capital Cardiff plus Swansea and Llanelli.
Neath Port Talbot, Torfaen and the Vale of Glamorgan all had new restrictions introduced from September 28.
As well as restricting movement in and out of the regions, the restrictions mean people should not meet indoors, aside from extended households.
On Monday, Mr Gething said any potential quarantine restrictions would apply to people from "high incidence areas across the UK".

"We're having to consider how we use our power to protect lower-prevalence areas of Wales but at the same time, we don't want to take a whole-nation approach," Mr Gething said.
"There's no good reason to prevent someone from Devon, at this point in time, coming to visit a pre-booked holiday or trip to Pembrokeshire.
"So we are thinking about how we use something that is proportionate and deals with the reality of the threat that we face."

 

[Howardh]

And now Wales is considering quarantine for visitors from other parts of the UK England with high infection rates.

I wonder how they are going to enforce this given that there are no border controls when crossing into Wales.

Wales could force quarantine on visitors from rest of the UK

The plans would affect people from regions with high levels of coronavirus and are being "actively considered"

www.telegraph.co.uk

So at Neston (ENG), next stop Harwarden Bridge (WAL) who is gonna jump on the train to turf off all those who aren't on an essential journey? I presume this has been thought of (sorry, "actively considered")?
Or do all the Welsh stations have security that will interrogate passengers as they get off?

 

[duncanp]

So at Neston (ENG), next stop Harwarden Bridge (WAL) who is gonna jump on the train to turf off all those who aren't on an essential journey? I presume this has been thought of (sorry, "actively considered")?
Or do all the Welsh stations have security that will interrogate passengers as they get off?

This is the problem.

To allow Welsh security personnel to get on the train at Neston would require the consent of the UK government, which is unlikely to be forthcoming. You would need something like the Le Touquet agreement between the UK and France, which allows for juxtaposed border controls before boarding Eurostar trains.

Just think what would happen if it was the other way round, and England wanted to quarantine visitors from Wales. Do you think that the Welsh government would allow English security to board the train at Hawarden?

And I can imagine what Mrs Krankie Nicola Sturgeon would say if Boris Johnson wanted to quarantine people travelling from Scotland to England, and demanded that English security allowed to prevent people boarding Anglo Scottish trains at Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverley. (not to mention all the other stations in Scotland that have direct services to England)

 

[Howardh]

This is the problem.

To allow Welsh security personnel to get on the train at Neston would require the consent of the UK government, which is unlikely to be forthcoming. You would need something like the Le Touquet agreement between the UK and France, which allows for juxtaposed border controls before boarding Eurostar trains.

Just think what would happen if it was the other way round, and England wanted to quarantine visitors from Wales. Do you think that the Welsh government would allow English security to board the train at Hawarden?

And I can imagine what Mrs Krankie Nicola Sturgeon would say if Boris Johnson wanted to quarantine people travelling from Scotland to England, and demanded that English security allowed to prevent people boarding Anglo Scottish trains at Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverley. (not to mention all the other stations in Scotland that have direct services to England)

R/e Scotland, didn't Sturgeon early on actively suggest wiping covid out in Scotland? If those were her thoughts, and somehow covid WAS wiped out in Scotland, then the problem of quarantine would occur, restricting anyone travelling by any method into Scotland.
In order for that to work, you would need security (let's not call it immigration!) on the border and on the trains to ensure those entering Scotland are (a) registered and (b) go to secure quarantine where they can be checked.
Surely that isn't realistically possible??
Suppose you aor on a pendalino towards Scotland approaching Carlisle. Then what? Frogmarched off through security where they take your details, then back on to the train (delays...) (delay repay....) or do they check everyone on the train between Carlisle and the next stop keeping the train to timetable?
Yes, it can be done r/e the England/Wales border. But it's SO impractical and probably futile in the end.

Will we call it the Leek Curtain, Leek Wall? What if it leeks?

 

[duncanp]

Suppose you are on a pendolino towards Scotland approaching Carlisle. Then what? Frogmarched off through security where they take your details, then back on to the train.

For this to happen, it would require the consent of the UK government to allow Scottish "border guards" to board the train at Carlisle.

Or they could have the situation like what used to occur with the Marseille to London Eurostar, where everyone has to leave the train at Carlisle and "check in" before re-boarding the train.

Can't see Boris allowing this to happen, and even if he did, people would just stop using the train and go by car.

And then what would you do about cross border bus services from England into Wales and Scotland?

 

[adc82140]

For this to happen, it would require the consent of the UK government to allow Scottish "border guards" to board the train at Carlisle.

Or they could have the situation like what used to occur with the Marseille to London Eurostar, where everyone has to leave the train at Carlisle and "check in" before re-boarding the train.

Can't see Boris allowing this to happen, and even if he did, people would just stop using the train and go by car.

And then what would you do about cross border bus services from England into Wales and Scotland?

Any attempt to introduce any type of border control will result in the suspension of devolution and they know this. It'll amount to no more than asking nicely and perhaps instructing businesses not to take holiday bookings from certain areas (which would be unenforceable anyway)

 

[bramling]

Any attempt to introduce any type of border control will result in the suspension of devolution and they know this. It'll amount to no more than asking nicely and perhaps instructing businesses not to take holiday bookings from certain areas (which would be unenforceable anyway)

Did we not see something not massively far from this with Wales during lockdown?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did we not see something not massively far from this with Wales during lockdown?

It was done by banning anyone (including Welsh people) from travelling further than 5 miles from home, which de-facto meant that English people could go no further than 5 miles from the border.

 

[Howardh]

Did we not see something not massively far from this with Wales during lockdown?

In effect at first we were tied down to one hour's exercise which included drive-time to get to where you exercised (am i correct? - think it was clarified later?). So on a practical level, unless you lived close to any border, crossing that border would mean going over your exercise time limit even just getting there.

Was it "allowed" co catch a train in order to go to somewhere to exercise (ie a quick walk around the country)? Was that essential use?

 

[nedchester]

In effect at first we were tied down to one hour's exercise which included drive-time to get to where you exercised (am i correct? - think it was clarified later?). So on a practical level, unless you lived close to any border, crossing that border would mean going over your exercise time limit even just getting there.

Was it "allowed" co catch a train in order to go to somewhere to exercise (ie a quick walk around the country)? Was that essential use?

No-one was ever tied down to a one hour exercise at any point.

 

[Richard Scott]

Why do you seem to think the only options are "no restrictions at all" or "loads of restrictions for the rest of eternity"? We are only six months into the pandemic.

We saw in July and August what happens when you try and rush relaxation of the rules. In simple terms, the UK now only has completely unrestricted travel to one country- Sweden- because it tried to rush things.

"We need to live with the virus" doesn't mean we should pretend it doesn't exist and bugger the consequences.

I tell you what you carry on with your restrictions, I'd rather not. My mental health is suffering massively and I'm getting fed up with being told I'm selfish or I should think of others. I'd like them to think about me for once and bet I'm not the only one. The last six months has nearly finished me, that's why I want rid of all restrictions but then again I must be being selfish.

 

[Chester1]

Why do you seem to think the only options are "no restrictions at all" or "loads of restrictions for the rest of eternity"? We are only six months into the pandemic.

We saw in July and August what happens when you try and rush relaxation of the rules. In simple terms, the UK now only has completely unrestricted travel to one country- Sweden- because it tried to rush things.

"We need to live with the virus" doesn't mean we should pretend it doesn't exist and bugger the consequences.

Its very disingenuous to say that the UK only one country for "completely unrestricted travel" because its classing needing to fill in a quick form as a restriction!

Apart from Sweden, as a resident of Northern England I can go to Italy, Greece (excluding 7 islands) and Gibraltar after filling in a form. Subject to a test shortly before or on arrival I can go to Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Bermuda, St Vincent and The Grenadines, Cyprus, Germany, Madeira, Jersey and Faroe Islands. The Azores will be possible with a test once direct flights restart (or Portugal gets removed from quarantine list). There has been a huge drop in flight and accommodation prices which offsets the cost of a private covid test if you are going away for a few days. The price of a Caribbean holiday has plummeted and its affordable for more people than normal. My travel options are still looking decent!

If the UK government copies the likes of Germany and introducing testing to replace some quarantines then Portugal, Malta, Slovenia, Slovakia and Poland should reopen to British tourists. There will be other countries were the testing figures are not trusted but our government could remove the quarantine requirement for once they have their own data through testing e.g. most of the South and eastern Mediterranean.

I don't find wearing a mask on a train, putting an app on my phone or having a table only service at a pub sufficiently inconvenient to support any national or county quarantine (as Bletchleyite has suggested). I will adapt to changes and get on with my life. The virus won't go away anytime soon and I don't want myself or my country to be cut off in an attempt to wait for a vaccine. Hopefully the Oxford vaccine will be granted an emergency use licence in the next few weeks or months so healthcare workers and most vulnerable people can become safer. A 99% effective vaccine that has sufficiently low side effects to give to low risk people might be a very long time away (if ever).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Apart from Sweden, as a resident of Northern England I can go to Italy, Greece (excluding 7 islands) and Gibraltar after filling in a form. Subject to a test shortly before or on arrival I can go to Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Bermuda, St Vincent and The Grenadines, Cyprus, Germany, Madeira, Jersey and Faroe Islands.

Private tests cost £150-£200 AFAIK (I've not had one, this is what I've seen quoted) so it is a definite restriction, even if current air fares make it an affordable one. And whilst English people have free travel to Gibraltar, Welsh people do not. It is also rumoured that Italy is about to change.

I started out a sceptic of lockdowns and restrictions, but I've seen the benefits here. And yes, it is easier to achieve on a small island, but still.

I don't think it "disingenuous" to point out that, for vast swathes of the world, UK residents face quarantine on their outward journey, their return journey, or both.

I don't think any lockdown can, or should, be forever. But I think the UK is where it is because, for understandable reasons, they tried to rush things. Going from lockdown to unrestricted beach holidays in a few weeks was a huge mistake, and those few weeks of "freedom" will result in a longer overall period of restriction.

The last six months has nearly finished me, that's why I want rid of all restrictions but then again I must be being selfish.

Nobody wants restrictions. Nobody. Restrictions are tough for everyone; I've not seen my 10yo daughter since the start of February, or my parents since early March. So everyone sympathises and empathises with those who are struggling. It's rubbish.

But the point is that pretending Covid doesn't exist, or pretending Covid doesn't kill a lot of people and permanently maim a lot more, doesn't solve those issues. "Living with Covid" may well mean some restrictions in the medium term,just as it did with Spanish Flu in 1918-1920.

Restrictions are horrible, but sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending everything is normal and getting rid of all restrictions is not the solution.

I can see some restrictions continuing well into 2021, but by then things will settle down. Spanish Flu lasted 12-18 months.

 

[Richard Scott]

Nobody wants restrictions. Nobody. Restrictions are tough for everyone; I've not seen my 10yo daughter since the start of February, or my parents since early March. So everyone sympathises and empathises with those who are struggling. It's rubbish.

But the point is that pretending Covid doesn't exist, or pretending Covid doesn't kill a lot of people and permanently maim a lot more, doesn't solve those issues. "Living with Covid" may well mean some restrictions in the medium term,just as it did with Spanish Flu in 1918-1920.

Restrictions are horrible, but sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending everything is normal and getting rid of all restrictions is not the solution.

I can see some restrictions continuing well into 2021, but by then things will settle down. Spanish Flu lasted 12-18 months.

But the restrictions are not proportionate with the severity. I'd have been far more worried about Spanish flu as was a problem for all age groups. We are wrecking economies and, ultimately, people's lives for this. There are people with undiagnosed cancers because of this, currently they may well be outnumbering those who've died either from or with this virus. Not saying all would have survived but some would. We need to get a sense or proportion and, afraid, many people don't seem to be able to grasp that.

 

[Chester1]

Private tests cost £150-£200 AFAIK (I've not had one, this is what I've seen quoted) so it is a definite restriction, even if current air fares make it an affordable one. And whilst English people have free travel to Gibraltar, Welsh people do not. It is also rumoured that Italy is about to change.

I started out a sceptic of lockdowns and restrictions, but I've seen the benefits here. And yes, it is easier to achieve on a small island, but still.

I don't think it "disingenuous" to point out that, for vast swathes of the world, UK residents face quarantine on their outward journey, their return journey, or both.

I don't think any lockdown can, or should, be forever. But I think the UK is where it is because, for understandable reasons, they tried to rush things. Going from lockdown to unrestricted beach holidays in a few weeks was a huge mistake, and those few weeks of "freedom" will result in a longer overall period of restriction.

You said we could only go to Sweden without restrictions, this is technically true due needing to fill in a form but it is misleading because by filling in a form major destinations are possible. All UK residents can go to Italy and the vast majority can go to Greece (excluding some islands), Gibraltar and Germany without quarantine or a test at either end. The rumours about Italy have been swirling since late August, at worst they will introduce testing for arrivals from the UK. One week holidays in Italy or Greece booked now are usually more than £150 cheaper than normal! I am looking at options for November and budgeting for £150 for a test. It rules out a cheap weekend breaks for most people but not proper holidays.

I understand why you are happy in the Isle of Man covid free bubble but you are the second most ardent UK quarantine supporter throughout this thread, despite no longer living here! Why do you care so much? Plenty of UK residents have voted with their feet and gone on holiday to the continent. The government was never going to ban it, only make it harder.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I understand why you are happy in the Isle of Man covid free bubble but you are the second most ardent UK quarantine supporter throughout this thread, despite no longer living here!

You misunderstand my point. I am in favour of the quarantine here, for obvious reasons. It was pointed out that I was "trapped" here as a result, and I'm simply pointing out that the UK isn't a great deal better off when you look at it objectively. I don't particularly care if the UK has a quarantine.

All I care about is the UK getting the infection rate under control so that our border can start to reopen. It reopened for residents with a quarantine in August and it was actually getting closer to further loosened restrictions until the muck hit the fan in September.

FWIW I think they were too quick to get people on their holidays, I said so at the time, and I think rushing has set everything back by 3 months, probably more. And that does, sadly, affect me.

 

[bramling]

You misunderstand my point. I am in favour of the quarantine here, for obvious reasons. It was pointed out that I was "trapped" here as a result, and I'm simply pointing out that the UK isn't a great deal better off when you look at it objectively. I don't particularly care if the UK has a quarantine.

All I care about is the UK getting the infection rate under control so that our border can start to reopen. It reopened for residents with a quarantine in August and it was actually getting closer to further loosened restrictions until the muck hit the fan in September.

FWIW I think they were too quick to get people on their holidays, I said so at the time, and I think rushing has set everything back by 3 months, probably more. And that does, sadly, affect me.

The trouble is it’s impossible to make a judgement on whether the UK rushed, as we still don’t know on what basis we actually went in to lockdown. Was it to attempt elimination, was it to protect the NHS, was it to buy time to get social distancing measures in place, or for some other reason known only to Cummings / Johnson / Hancock et al?

I agree that things like the eat out scheme were probably unhelpful (it seems the government have essentially accepted this now), however it’s inevitable infections would have risen again. It’s easy to say things were rushed when you’re not paying the bill for things like furlough, or losing your job, or losing the business you had spent years successfully creating because you can no longer make the sums add up.

*If* we were going for elimination then yes it was rushed, however they seem to have intimated that elimination was never the objective. The current buzz term from De-Piffle seems to be “get the virus down”, whatever that means. Joining the dots together that would indicate suppression, however with what end-game in sight?

 

[Chester1]

You misunderstand my point. I am in favour of the quarantine here, for obvious reasons. It was pointed out that I was "trapped" here as a result, and I'm simply pointing out that the UK isn't a great deal better off when you look at it objectively.

All I care about is the UK getting the infection rate under control so that our border can start to reopen. It reopened for residents with a quarantine in August and it was actually getting closer to further loosened restrictions until the muck hit the fan in September.

FWIW I think they were too quick to get people on their holidays, I said so at the time, and I think rushing has set everything back by 3 months, probably more.

Having 4-6 destinations without a test and 10-12 with a test is a great deal better off! If (or when) the UK uses testing for medium risk countries then many more destinations will reopen. The vast majority of the recent rise is due to behaviour in the UK and seasonal change. For instance if you walk around Manchester you would quickly realise what the problems are, people going to Italy isn't one of them!

 

[Tetchytyke]

It’s easy to say things were rushed when you’re not paying the bill for things like furlough, or losing your job, or losing the business you had spent years successfully creating because you can no longer make the sums add up.

I understand the pressures and understand why the government wanted to get back to normal. But like when you try and walk on a broken leg too soon, ultimately it causes more pain than if you'd just waited a little bit longer.

The stupid and haphazard rules in the UK now don't seem any better for business. It's just really sad. Conveniently the lack of a lockdown does stop the insurers- who recently lost a Court case brought by the FCA- having to pay out. So that's one business protected!

For instance if you walk around Manchester you would quickly realise what the problems are, people going to Italy isn't one of them!

Although Andy Burnham said that a big spike in Bolton can be attributed to one man who caught it in Spain and then went on a pub crawl round the town when he should have been isolating.

 

[Chester1]

I understand the pressures and understand why the government wanted to get back to normal. But like when you try and walk on a broken leg too soon, ultimately it causes more pain than if you'd just waited a little bit longer.

The stupid and haphazard rules in the UK now don't seem any better for business. It's just really sad. Conveniently the lack of a lockdown does stop the insurers- who recently lost a Court case brought by the FCA- having to pay out. So that's one business protected!



Although Andy Burnham said that a big spike in Bolton can be attributed to one man who caught it in Spain and then went on a pub crawl round the town when he should have been isolating.

That is true but it was more than a couple of weeks after Spain was added to the English quarantine list. That is why it caused such anger.

Its not a case that if the government kept tight measures for longer then things would be fine now. It would have bought a little bit more time at the cost of having an even less normal summer. Consumer spending recovered to pre pandemic in September and the economy is moving. For all the bluster from the government, they aren't going to shut down the English economy again. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could but any additional support package for businesses will have to be paid for out of their own budgets.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For all the bluster from the government, they aren't going to shut down the English economy again.

They already have shut it down, they're just not being honest about it now. Elite sport is shut, as are theatres, most of the night-time industry, retail. It's not all doom and gloom although it is where my family and friends live- Newcastle and Bradford.

I do genuinely think that more circumspection in July and August would have prevented the situation the UK is now in. It wouldn't all be sunlit uplands now, but it would be better, more sustainable, and you wouldn't have spaffed half a billion quid up the wall on a scheme that even Boris thinks made infection rates worse.

As for quarantine, I'm sold on the benefits but I'm also sensible enough to know it's a bit easier to achieve on an island of 83,000 people.

 

[Chester1]

They already have shut it down, they're just not being honest about it now. Elite sport is shut, as are theatres, most of the night-time industry, retail. It's not all doom and gloom although it is where my family and friends live- Newcastle and Bradford.

I do genuinely think that more circumspection in July and August would have prevented the situation the UK is now in.

You are basing this on secondhand sources. Elite sport, theatres and cinemas are not the UK economy. Its looking like that the economy will soon be at 97% of its level in February. It won't recover much further until there is a vaccine but it puts the economic damage into perspective. Many businesses have taken a massive hit and are recovering. Those that rely on close contact or international travel have not but are a small proportion of the economy. The recent changes are not that tight in England. I can go out for a meal with friends, its advised against but its not illegal in England apart from in Liverpool city region and parts of the North East. The big change has been banning households mixing in homes because that is were most spread has been. If you don't get red faced in anger at change or using technology and haven't lost your job then you can lead a relatively normal life.

 

[Bikeman78]

Although Andy Burnham said that a big spike in Bolton can be attributed to one man who caught it in Spain and then went on a pub crawl round the town when he should have been isolating.

Genuinely curious, how do they know he caught it in Spain and not in a supermarket an hour after he got back?

 

[Chester1]

Genuinely curious, how do they know he caught it in Spain and not in a supermarket an hour after he got back?

They don't but he should have been quarantining for 14 days after arriving from Spain. They can make an example of people but short of closing the border they can't stop idiots breaking quarantine. If the Australian experience is much to go by, its very difficult to get people to behave even while quarantining in government facilities.

 

[Bantamzen]

You misunderstand my point. I am in favour of the quarantine here, for obvious reasons. It was pointed out that I was "trapped" here as a result, and I'm simply pointing out that the UK isn't a great deal better off when you look at it objectively. I don't particularly care if the UK has a quarantine.

All I care about is the UK getting the infection rate under control so that our border can start to reopen. It reopened for residents with a quarantine in August and it was actually getting closer to further loosened restrictions until the muck hit the fan in September.

FWIW I think they were too quick to get people on their holidays, I said so at the time, and I think rushing has set everything back by 3 months, probably more. And that does, sadly, affect me.

The point about you being trapped that I was making was that even when the rate does drop here, does not mean that your borders will be allowed to open up. I firmly suspect, a bit like New Zealand, that when we and other countries find better strategies for coping with the virus whilst allowing international travel, your governments will still be wringing their hands because they are trying to work to as close to zero community infections as possible, something that will be near impossible with open borders.