Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[ainsworth74]

Following on from the previous thread on this broad subject (here) the forum team have decided to start a new thread to deal with this topic again in light of the recent announcements from ASLEF, TSSA and also at Scotrail regarding ASLEF.

As with the last thread we remain aware that the subject of industrial action is a highly passionate topic. As such, in this thread only, we are now trialling allowing free debate on this subject.

Please be advised that, due to the anticipated pace of discussion and the understandable passion on both sides of the debate, this thread will be reactively moderated only, with the exception of bad language and direct personal insults.

From now on any general debate on industrial action is expressly permitted in this thread only.

If and when action actually takes place we will look at opening threads relating to service disruption where people can get information where it’s affecting travel plans etc.

The forum team at their sole discretion, may also move posts from other threads into this one if they are on the subject of industrial action.

 

[Need2]

@DanBlanchflowe

The train drivers should effectively take a 10% pay cut to allow other poorer paid workers providing a public service to catch up. A fairer deal for all in public sector.

Just train drivers or anyone that you consider who earns too much?

What a ridiculous statement!

 

[JonathanH]

With today's ballot results and the RMT already in dispute, what is now feasible in terms of disruption?

It seems that if TSSA and RMT signalling staff at Network Rail strike concurrently, that should be enough for a full shutdown, but is there merit in them striking on alternate days, such that the TSSA staff, who are presumably in more senior grades, aren't available to supervise the RMT staff, such that a contingent service couldn't run on the TSSA strike day and the limited service would run on the RMT strike day.

It seems a little remiss that ASLEF have only been able to announce ballot results at eight train operators. Presumably ASLEF drivers will strike one day and RMT members the next.

Is there any chance that, by taking turns to take action each week and with alternate days of strike action, that there could be permanent disruption, while staff only each lose one day of work each week?

Are the unions close enough to each other to coordinate in this way for this cause?

 

[Efini92]

With today's ballot results and the RMT already in dispute, what is now feasible in terms of disruption?

It seems that if TSSA and RMT signalling staff at Network Rail strike concurrently, that should be enough for a full shutdown, but is there merit in them striking on alternate days, such that the TSSA staff, who are presumably in more senior grades, aren't available to supervise the RMT staff, such that a contingent service couldn't run on the TSSA strike day and the limited service would run on the RMT strike day.

It seems a little remiss that ASLEF have only been able to announce ballot results at eight train operators. Presumably ASLEF drivers will strike one day and RMT members the next.

Is there any chance that, by taking turns to take action each week, that there could be permanent disruption, while staff only each lose one day of work each week?

Not all the ASLEF ballots went out at the same time. I’d imagine there won’t be any notification of industrial action until the others have been announced.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So govt needs to see strength of feeling from workforce that they need to allow operators to put at least 5% on the table to attempt to move negotiations forward but i suspect that won't happen with govt in semi paralysis.

 

[Buffer stop]

I there will be strike announcements on Wedneaday of this week.

 

[Stigy]

@DanBlanchflowe

The train drivers should effectively take a 10% pay cut to allow other poorer paid workers providing a public service to catch up. A fairer deal for all in public sector.

Just train drivers or anyone that you consider who earns too much?

What a ridiculous statement!

I can’t believe I read that either. It’s back to the race to the bottom for some “anti-driver” types. Nobody ever seems to mention bands 6 to 8 for NHS nurses when saying how drivers get too much money.

 

[dk1]

Not all the ASLEF ballots went out at the same time. I’d imagine there won’t be any notification of industrial action until the others have been announced.

Precisely, we have strike day no3 Saturday week here in East Anglia.

Nobody ever seems to mention bands 6 to 8 for NHS nurses when saying how drivers get too much money.

Probably because they are too ignorant to learn such facts. Wouldn’t help their bitter cause.

 

[Bald Rick]

It seems that if TSSA and RMT signalling staff at Network Rail strike concurrently, that should be enough for a full shutdown, but is there merit in them striking on alternate days, such that the TSSA staff, who are presumably in more senior grades, aren't available to supervise the RMT staff, such that a contingent service couldn't run on the TSSA strike day and the limited service would run on the RMT strike day.

that’s not how it works with signalling staff. The managers of signalling staff do not supervise their work in real time, in normal circumstances.

and in any event TSSA Mangers at NR did not vote for strike action (at least not in sufficient numbers to gain a legal mandate).

 

[Efini92]

Precisely, we have strike day no3 Saturday week here in East Anglia.


Probably because they are too ignorant to learn such facts. Wouldn’t help their bitter cause.

Apologies I keep forgetting you guys are already in dispute.

 

[JonathanH]

Precisely, we have strike day no3 Saturday week here in East Anglia.

It isn't exactly making the national news though - just an inconvenience for people wanting to make a journey on a Saturday and a bit of lost revenue / pay.

What would appear to need to happen is the threat of properly co-ordinated action that actually prevents the railway from being usable for months while not diminishing any individual worker's pay - so strikes on alternate days announced indefinitely with each group of staff taking action one day a week to spread the strain on pay packets but disruption every day.

that’s not how it works with signalling staff. The managers of signalling staff do not supervise their work in real time, in normal circumstances.

and in any event TSSA Mangers at NR did not vote for strike action (at least not in sufficient numbers to gain a legal mandate).

Right, that sounds a little less comprehensive than I thought a joint RMT / TSSA mandate might be able to achieve. So you are saying that TSSA signalling staff on their own aren't enough to cause meaningful disruption (notwithstanding that there isn't a mandate).

 

[dk1]

Apologies I keep forgetting you guys are already in dispute.

Always forgotten here out east lol.

 

[ainsworth74]

Always forgotten here out east lol.

Did anyone else hear that? It sounded like someone said something but I couldn't quite tell. Meh, must be hearing things again!

 

[dk1]

Did anyone else hear that? It sounded like someone said something but I couldn't quite tell. Meh, must be hearing things again!

Here or hear?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

On a totally unrelated note, was it Socretes or Aeschlyus who said, "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have..."

 

[Efini92]

On a totally unrelated note, was it Socretes or Aeschlyus who said, "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have..."

Would he have said the same if what he had was less than it was 3 years ago?

 

[dk1]

On a totally unrelated note, was it Socretes or Aeschlyus who said, "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have..."

You’d be good on The Chase.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Would he have said the same if what he had was less than it was 3 years ago?

I don't know. I don't think Greek philosophers lived in economies badly hit by global pandemics and war sanctions.

 

[Horizon22]

I wonder if there will be discussion to have a coordinated strike date with RMT (should it go ahead). Obviously it’s more disruptive (pretty much zero trains), but that is after all somewhat the point of industrial action.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

@DanBlanchflowe

The train drivers should effectively take a 10% pay cut to allow other poorer paid workers providing a public service to catch up. A fairer deal for all in public sector.

Just train drivers or anyone that you consider who earns too much?

What a ridiculous statement!

Isn’t that however the ideology of the Labour Party, the redistribution of wealth?

 

[TootTootToot]

Wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an announcement on Thursday. 14 days from then the commonwealth games begin….. Surely all unions will be talking and coordinating begins the scenes?

 

[The Middle]

Not familiar with NR grades. Would it be grades 1-4 that were manning the panels during the RMT strike or was that likely Grades 5-8?

 

[gorilladan]

On a totally unrelated note, was it Socretes or Aeschlyus who said, "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have..."

I raise you, Marcus Aurelius.
"The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject."

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Avanti, XC and DRS ballots aren't finished yet and will be announced in due course. Have to say, some of the % are incredibly. 98.9% Arriva Trains London for strike action!

 

[306024]

On a totally unrelated note, was it Socretes or Aeschlyus who said, "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have..."

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/63450-he-who-is-not-contented-with-what-he-has-would

Socretes, but I’m not aware he was in ASLEF.

With the transport Secretary now taking his eye off the ball (if he ever knew where it was), is there any hope of early resolution of potential strike action? Not that he was involved of course.

 

[Horizon22]

Not familiar with NR grades. Would it be grades 1-4 that were manning the panels during the RMT strike or was that likely Grades 5-8?

Signaller grades? All signallers were out so probably those not in a union, SSMs (grade 10s) then other proficient senior managers like Local Ops Managers (LOMs) and Ops Managers (OMs)

 

[380101]

Isn’t that however the ideology of the Labour Party, the redistribution of wealth?

Suspect that when they refer to wealth they mean the multi millionaires and billionaires that hoard their wealth that is largely created by the efforts of the working class rather than a train driver on 50 or 60grand a year before tax and NI.

 

[Mag_seven]

Given the fact that, unlike the RMT, ASLEF are affiliated to Labour this could put Kier Starmer in a tricky position if the ASLEF strikes go ahead. I can also see the Tory leadership candidates "making hay" out of the situation.

 

[Annetts key]

With the transport Secretary now taking his eye off the ball (if he ever knew where it was), is there any hope of early resolution of potential strike action? Not that he was involved of course.

Someone in the DFT was involved, because the company was telling the RMT early this year that even if the union agreed to everything the company wanted, and found additional savings, the maximum allowable pay rise would still be capped at 2%.

 

[Dunnideer]

Not familiar with NR grades. Would it be grades 1-4 that were manning the panels during the RMT strike or was that likely Grades 5-8?

Signaller grades? All signallers were out so probably those not in a union, SSMs (grade 10s) then other proficient senior managers like Local Ops Managers (LOMs) and Ops Managers (OMs)

Management bands, not grades. The bands go the opposite way from signaller and supervisor grades, i.e. from 1 (highest) to 8 (lowest). There’s also an executive band above 1. The vast majority of ‘contingent signallers’ are operational managers in bands 4 and 3 (LOMs, OMs and anyone else who fancies playing trains for a day) and are represented by TSSA.