RTVs rejected at station

[Malcmal]

People in general seem to get sour when the customer knows more about their job than they do. I was once in the local bank dealing with a Direct Debit issue and telling the member of staff what form was required for my request. He snapped at me "we are the bankers" - OMG how I had to hold my tongue and not make the obvious rhyming comparison

 

[Kilopylae]

People in general seem to get sour when the customer knows more about their job than they do. I was once in the local bank dealing with a Direct Debit issue and telling the member of staff what form was required for my request. He snapped at me "we are the bankers" - OMG how I had to hold my tongue and not make the obvious rhyming comparison

Thank goodness nothing so obvious rhymes with 'RPI', or I'd have probably been thrown off the railway at least once by now!

 

[pitdiver]

I spent ten years working in LUL booking offices at various stations. I am the first to admit that the UTS ticketing system was no where as complicated as the National Rail system.

However there were certain procedures that you would come across once in a blue moon. I am not ashamed to admit I would have to look them up in the UTS manual.

 

[robbeech]

I’ve had the user manual out for a £75,000 mixing console of mine on a 60,000 capacity gig before when me and at least 3 others couldn’t figure out how to do one specific thing that is hardly ever required. It doesn’t mean I can’t mix, it just means that one thing that I’d never done with that system before needed looking up. I know how to do it now, and it’s fairly illogical how to achieve it which is partially why we couldn’t guess. I’m sure the same applies with tickets. The difference is, I was prepared to say, crikey, I’ve never done that before with this system but I’m almost certain it’s possible, let’s ask her and let’s ask him if they’ve ever done it, and if not we’ll look at the manual, where as other people might have just said “well I’ve never needed to do it so you can manage without”
Familiar?
Yes, some people can find more issues with the railway, but each one is where they have rights to a ticket, rights to alternative travel, rights to board a service etc. They’re not asking for any favours here, or any gestures of good will, just what they are entitled to.

@Chew Chew with respect it feels like you’ve come to the conclusion that they’re a pain in the backside because what they're asking for requires a member of railway staff to put in more effort than doing some other tasks. This is seen as a hindrance and it’s this negativity that actually causes people to form a negative attitude towards the railway and call them lazy when in most cases they’re anything but.

 

[sheff1]

People in general seem to get sour when the customer knows more about their job than they do.

I think the sort of people who get sour are the sort of people who are not willing to look up how to do something they are unfamiliar with, prefering to make something up or claim whatever has been requested is not possible. In most industries such people would not last long in a customer facing role. 'The railway' appears to tolerate or even encourage such people and there never seems to be a shortage of posters on here willing to back up such attitudes.

 

[najaB]

In most industries such people would not last long in a customer facing role.

I've experienced similar behaviour in other industries. The railway is not unique.

 

[robbeech]

I've experienced similar behaviour in other industries. The railway is not unique.

I agree, though there does tend to be a higher level of penalty in some other industries. Rude staff in a supermarket will receive disciplinary action eventually. I’m pretty sure that most of the time, if it’s not safety related the staff don’t even find out a complaint has been made against them do it stands to reason that nothing will improve in these cases.

The railway' appears to tolerate or even encourage such people and there never seems to be a shortage of posters on here willing to back up such attitudes

It appears to be tolerated generally but only encouraged in a minority of cases, generally where there is financial gain, or potential of.

 

[Chew Chew]

@Chew Chew with respect it feels like you’ve come to the conclusion that they’re a pain in the backside because what they're asking for requires a member of railway staff to put in more effort than doing some other tasks. This is seen as a hindrance and it’s this negativity that actually causes people to form a negative attitude towards the railway and call them lazy when in most cases they’re anything but.

I understand, and accept, that the railway is different from almost every other industry and it isn't as simple as saying "I've had an issue at Asda so I'll go to Tesco instead". I've used the fantastic advice of Yorkie on here before when I had issues with Scotrail and it was difficult getting a refund back for a fare I was charged but shouldn't have been and also a bus fare.

When the same people have issue after issue after issue you start to have doubts about their stories and issues.

 

[43096]

Reading some of their other threads, including 'hypothetical' threads I have come to my opinion. Others may disagree with my opinion as is their valid opinion.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/missing-last-connection-due-to-full-train.207024/ - Can I force Scotrail to pay a 93 mile taxi based on my opinion?
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/toc-claims-ticket-is-tampered-with.206952/ - 6 months ago I used a Scotrail train with a strangely filled ticket and they didn't accept it
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail-cancelling-services.202377/#post-4494537 - Are Scotrail allowed to cancel services (lockdown was announced later that day)

That does put a rather different slant on it, particularly the Rover example.

 

[mmh]

It is if it means ticket offices won't process them.

Honestly, if a TOC offered me another option for compensation like a cheque or bank transfer, I'd just take it. Vouchers are less liquid and life experience teaches that railway IT struggles with check digits. I wouldn't bother with them.

I'll stick with RTVs. If your opinion of railway IT is that they struggle with numbering vouchers, why would you volunteer your bank details to them?

I wouldn't accept a cheque through choice myself, given the banks have decided they don't need branches any more and the few they deign to keep only open at lunchtime.

Now tried to buy a ticket at the same station and got a load of verbal abuse at Oban, using a ScotRail RTV for a ticket. Said to the guy behind the office that it says in the handbook how to put them in manually. He blew up and told me that I can’t travel, he eventually gave me my ticket that I payed for by card. His reason for not putting it in manually was due to too much fraud happening but I assume this is just another flat out lie?

In all walks of life, I'd recommend not telling someone what is in their handbook. It surprises me that people would unless they're being confrontational.

 

[najaB]

If your opinion of railway IT is that they struggle with numbering vouchers, why would you volunteer your bank details to them?

The worst that could happen is that they accidentally credit too much! That's a risk I'd be willing to take.

 

[RJ]

That does put a rather different slant on it, particularly the Rover example.

There are people about who actively seek out problems for the sole purpose of seeing what the railway will do.

Sometimes life experience teaches that things aren't always as they should be and there are better ways of dealing with this and nipping problems in the bud.

I'll stick with RTVs. If your opinion of railway IT is that they struggle with numbering vouchers, why would you volunteer your bank details to them?

I wouldn't accept a cheque through choice myself, given the banks have decided they don't need branches any more and the few they deign to keep only open at lunchtime.

From experience I've never had an issue with compensation by bank transfer. I deposit cheques under a certain value through my mobile phone.

As someone who puts a high value on time, I feel the potential with issues with RTVs, as well as having to find an open ticket office and queue means I'll happily look at practical alternatives.

As for railway IT, it's not really my opinion - I've been a ticket office clerk for almost 10 years and deal with RTVs as a matter of course.

 

[Malcmal]

In all walks of life, I'd recommend not telling someone what is in their handbook. It surprises me that people would unless they're being confrontational.

That sounds like you are blaming the customer for any potential dispute - I hope you are not in charge of a customer service team in any capacity!

If a member of staff cannot cope with polite "pushback" (I accept not everyone starts at this end of the scale) then frankly cleaning toilets is too good a job for those employees.

 

[RJ]

It's variable. I engage in various forms of high street arbitrage which involves interacting with sales staff and making use of advertised services that not many customers or staff for that matter are familiar with. I learn the till systems myself as it's often the easiest way to get things done.

- Some staff are glad of a polite prompt in the right direction and will provide the service.

- Some staff won't do that without consulting a manager which is fine. Usually when the manager comes they help their colleague and all is good.

- Some won't do it all which isn't fine but I say thanks and find a nearby shop that will do it. Shop etiquette decrees that creating a scene is the best way to get people's backs up and not get what you want.

Working in a ticket office, if there's something I don't know I'll do my best to find out how to do it there and then. If it's software, rather than policy related, sometimes I call people for advice and sometimes people call me - we help each other out. However some people won't do that so some other way has to be found to get around that.

 

[Malcmal]

It's variable. I engage in various forms of high street arbitrage which involves interacting with sales staff and making use of advertised services that not many customers or staff for that matter are familiar with. I learn the till systems myself as it's often the easiest way to get things done.

- Some staff are glad of a polite prompt in the right direction and will provide the service.

- Some staff won't do that without consulting a manager which is fine. Usually when the manager comes they help their colleague and all is good.

- Some won't do it all which isn't fine but I say thanks and find a nearby shop that will do it. Shop etiquette decrees that creating a scene is the best way to get people's backs up and not get what you want.

Working in a ticket office, if there's something I don't know I'll do my best to find out how to do it there and then. If it's software, rather than policy related, sometimes I call people for advice and sometimes people call me - we help each other out. However some people won't do that so some other way has to be found to get around that.

It's the fourth category where it becomes despicable and sackings should occur:

- The few staff who fly into a hostile rage because someone dared to contradict them

Luckily it's not too often this happens and of course these are the times people tend to post on forums or tell their friends what happened so this distorts the reality a bit.

 

[RJ]

It's the fourth category where it becomes despicable and sackings should occur:

- The few staff who fly into a hostile rage because someone dared to contradict them

Luckily it's not too often this happens and of course these are the times people tend to post on forums or tell their friends what happened so this distorts the reality a bit.

Yes but this is the railways. In places, more fundamental things like attendance and getting the core functions of the job covered are a struggle and customer service issues take a back seat. Not least because they're hard to prove and can result in fractious, toxic relationships between managers and their staff.

You're preaching to the converted really. Luckily where I work we're very customer oriented, go way beyond the minimum service levels stipulated in the NRCoT and have the authority and autonomy to act in the customer's best interests. As a result altercations with customers are virtually unheard of. That's how it should be really. I should think the majority genuinely have no interest in causing customers grief.

 

[Malcmal]

....have the authority and autonomy to act in the customer's best interests.

This is one of the most important freedoms that you can give customer facing staff. The ability to flex and think on the feet is what brings out the best in employees - with the obvious limits of course.

Once again I acknowledge that there are a small number of customers who are beyond help

 

[Chew Chew]

There are people about who actively seek out problems for the sole purpose of seeing what the railway will do.

Like trying to use LNER vouchers in Oban when already knowing there are issues trying to use them on the LNER network because LNER have not issued them correctly.

From experience I've never had an issue with compensation by bank transfer.

Me neither.

Some of us want the easy resolution, some want the difficult resolution.

Just the way it goes.

 

[RJ]

To be clear I'm of the view that being pro-customer is being pro-railway.

If the vouchers issued by a TOC are causing problems, the issue should be corrected. This makes the lives of customers and colleagues at other TOCs that are obliged to accept the vouchers easier.

As a customer of the railway if I know something like RTVs are problematic, I'll just avoid them as acceptable equivalents are available. However accepting them means you may have to take on a troubleshooting project by working with the TOCs to get the RTV accepted - and only an individual can decide if that's what they want to spend their time doing when their is no gain to be had over taking a bank transfer or cheque. Perhaps not how things should be, but it is what it is. I find being pragmatic frees up valuable time to do more productive things.

 

[Mathieu]

Like trying to use LNER vouchers in Oban when already knowing there are issues trying to use them on the LNER network because LNER have not issued them correctly.




Me neither.

Some of us want the easy resolution, some want the difficult resolution.

Just the way it goes.

I went back to the station to use a ScotRail voucher as previously posted which caused the escalation, and they should be accepted at any National Rail station. The staff at Milngavie happily take the same vouchers from the same batch without an issue. If I could go to another station I would but considering the nearest station from Oban is over 50 miles away it not as easy for me just to go to another station

 

[robbeech]

Like trying to use LNER vouchers in Oban when already knowing there are issues trying to use them on the LNER network because LNER have not issued them correctly.

Drivel, that action is trying to use a valid payment method to purchase a ticket at a ticket office. You seem absolutely intent on making it the passenger's problem. What is it that makes you feel like rail staff shouldn't have to do their job?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Drivel, that action is trying to use a valid payment method to purchase a ticket at a ticket office. You seem absolutely intent on making it the passenger's problem. What is it that makes you feel like rail staff shouldn't have to do their job?

It's arguably not a valid payment method because it has been issued incorrectly. It's as valid as a credit card with a number wrong - just try using that.

LNER know who have the vouchers, and they are at fault for being too cheap/lazy to reissue them correctly. They could contact each person and offer a reprint or online credit as an alternative, or simply offer a BACS transfer for the value.

 

[RJ]

LNER know who have the vouchers, and they are at fault for being too cheap/lazy to reissue them correctly. They could contact each person and offer a reprint or online credit as an alternative, or simply offer a BACS transfer for the value.

If there are check digit issues, a procedure should be established with other TOCs to get them accepted, if re-issue is impractical.

It's very well it being said that ticket sellers can make up to 10 attempts with random check digits until the voucher is accepted. But expecting this of staff from other TOCs without it being formally agreed and briefed out is fraught with issues. Expediency only leads to headaches for staff and customers. The railways are supposed to be a procedure led operation, even the retail side.

 

[robbeech]

It's arguably not a valid payment method because it has been issued incorrectly. It's as valid as a credit card with a number wrong - just try using that.

LNER know who have the vouchers, and they are at fault for being too cheap/lazy to reissue them correctly. They could contact each person and offer a reprint or online credit as an alternative, or simply offer a BACS transfer for the value.

The could be proactive like that, but in doing so that would ensure that (if they paid people by bacs) 100% of the money had to be paid. There's a chance that by leaving it, many people will give up and/or let them lapse, which is a nice little earner for the TOC that issued them, although i doubt it's a huge sum. I know which i would choose, sadly the operators don't think like me.

 

[mmh]

The could be proactive like that, but in doing so that would ensure that (if they paid people by bacs) 100% of the money had to be paid. There's a chance that by leaving it, many people will give up and/or let them lapse, which is a nice little earner for the TOC that issued them, although i doubt it's a huge sum. I know which i would choose, sadly the operators don't think like me.

It's quite obviously an insignificant amount. Any saving money regime would probably favour BACS rather than the cost of posting vouchers.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If there are check digit issues, a procedure should be established with other TOCs to get them accepted, if re-issue is impractical.

Nothing anywhere near that simple

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing anywhere near that simple

Re-issue is totally practical. LNER know who they issued them to (as they aren't issued in person, so can only have been sent by post), and they presumably know the time period during which there was a problem. It will cost them money, of course, but any business who cared about customer service would take that on the chin for their error and just resend all the ones that might be dodgy and haven't been redeemed, with a request to tear up the old one. Most people will, some will try it on, but that's their cost for having made the mistake.

Anything else is just a typical railway pathetic excuse.

 

[Haywain]

Re-issue is totally practical. LNER know who they issued them to (as they aren't issued in person, so can only have been sent by post), and they presumably know the time period during which there was a problem.

You are right about knowing the timescale, but by no means all of the vouchers issued had that problem, and many (most?) that did have been accepted anyway. Therefore a general re-issue would cost an lot more than just the postage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are right about knowing the timescale, but by no means all of the vouchers issued had that problem, and many (most?) that did have been accepted anyway. Therefore a general re-issue would cost an lot more than just the postage.

One would assume that there are records of which have already been redeemed?

As I said, any good business which cared about customer services would take such a thing on the chin and deal with it proactively. The railway fails on this, time after time, preferring instead to prosecute or PF its passengers when they make a minor error.

 

[Haywain]

any good business which cared about customer services would take such a thing on the chin and deal with it proactively

Which is why, when the problem came to light, LNER took steps to issue instructions to it's own Travel Centres and to all other TOCs on how the vouchers should be dealt with when presented. You obviously believe that proactive means something else, which you are entitled to do.