Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[BRX]

Yes, is there some reason that changing some strip lights would be hugely difficult or expensive?

Given that the whole point of the project was aimed at creating the ambience of a comfortable intercity train, it seems like a massive blind spot to ignore the lighting.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sort out the lighting and vestibule doors and they easily provide a superior passenger environment than a Pendolino, an Azuma with current seating layout or any long distance DMU.

A hugely, hugely subjective thing to say based on your personal opinion.

 

[92002]

A hugely, hugely subjective thing to say based on your personal opinion.

Given there are sizeable numbers of 5 car Voyagers and Meridians duel off lease shortly it would make a lot of sense to lease these and return the 170s and 158s that are being used to supplement HSTs. One problem being the 221s and 222s can't work in multiple. Though probably not a game changer.

It would probably also be insurance if ASLEF refuse the HSTs in the future.

 

[hexagon789]

Weekend update and corrections:

Thurs 17th - 9 out, disruption/ammendment diagrams
Fri 18th - 8 out, Inc. 3 stranded and recovered, much disruption
Sat 19th - 6 plus 1 ECS. No HSTs Glasgow-Perth
Sun 20th - 7 plus 2 ECS
Mon 21st - 10/15 plus 1 failure on depot

(I have deliberately only scored today /15 diagrams due to the disruption immediately before and over the weekend.)

 

[Bikeman78]

As it happens I made a Glasgow-Perth return journey last week, by HST both ways. Yes, the lighting is far too cold and horrifically bright, and some of the vestibule doors are stuck open, and the non-PRM lavs are microscopic, and not specifying upgraded WSP was stupid... but the set was clean and well-presented, and the standard-class seats are entirely decent, and there was space aplenty for the considerable number of passengers aboard and the ambience was preferable to that of a 158 or 170 by no small amount.

I know they're never going to be anywhere near perfect, and I wholeheartedly approve of plans to find a proper long-term successor, but I can't agree with the notion that the project should be entirely abandoned at this point - with all the attendant overheads - in favour of some other fleet that would in effect be just another short-term successor.

On GWR the lights were nearly always on half setting. There is a switch in the door vestibule to choose between full or half lighting. Without the HSTs there would be a lot of solo 158s whizzing around on long distance trains. No problem at this time of year but imagine a full and standing 158 in the summer heat without any air con. No thanks.

 

[BRX]

A hugely, hugely subjective thing to say based on your personal opinion.

Of course. Anyone's opinion about things like "ambience" is going to be subjective.

 

[Carntyne]

The vestibule doors are undergoing modification and will work properly soon.

How long have these been in service now?

 

[hexagon789]

How long have these been in service now?

Between 634 and 1,557 days depending on set...

 

[Carntyne]

Between 634 and 1,557 days depending on set...

Yet the doors still don't work? Engineers doing a bang-up job there.

 

[scotraildriver]

Yet the doors still don't work? Engineers doing a bang-up job there.

Much argument over who is paying or it. Wabtec installed a brand new system on the vestibule doors, and it didn't work. Saying that quite often they have been isolated by cleaners so they can move their equipment more easily and simply not reinstated. I checked them on a set today and every one had bern isolated and all bar 1 worked when I put them back on.

 

[hexagon789]

HSTs today - 9/15:

HA04 (43130/43135) - 1B70

HA05* (43152/43035) - 1A71, 1T22, 1A41, 1T46, 1A53

HA06* (43177/43147) - 1A04, 1B74, 1H17, 1T92, 5T93

HA09 (43149/43136) - 1A29, 1T26, 1A43, 1B88, 1A93

HA13 (43127/43138) - 1T18, 1A39, 1T42, 1A51, 1B96

HA14 (43179/43034) - 1A33, 1H61, 1A33, 5T98

HA17 (43151/43181) - 1T06, 1A35, 1B84, 1H25

HA25 (43015/43176) - 5A45, 1A75, 1T54, 1A57

HA26 (43125/43141) - 1H35, 1T84, 1H21, 1B40

*HA05 and 06 are five-car sets

 

[BRX]

Much argument over who is paying or it. Wabtec installed a brand new system on the vestibule doors, and it didn't work. Saying that quite often they have been isolated by cleaners so they can move their equipment more easily and simply not reinstated. I checked them on a set today and every one had bern isolated and all bar 1 worked when I put them back on.

Things like this are very frustrating to hear, because the whole project is let down by something that should be very easy to fix. After all sorts of difficult, heavy and expensive work is done: welding things together, designing new doors, modifying depot infrastructure, passengers sit in a slightly too chilly train because the train conductor is not attentive enough to notice that all the vestibule doors have been left open.

All that needs to happen surely is that this is made a standard part of checking over the train at the start of the day. It doesn't even have to cost any money and yet it would have a significant impact on passenger comfort.

The lighting is similar: especially if it's true that the existing overbright lighting can in fact be switched to a half-dimmed setting. It just needs someone to notice and press a button. Maybe it's switched onto full brightness also because it's helpful for the cleaners?

Going a bit further, as mentioned a few posts back, I can't imagine it would be that difficult to swap out the light tubes/LED strips or whatever they are for something of a better colour temperature. The cost would be a fraction of everything else that's been done, but have a significant effect on how the trains are perceived by passengers.

All these things are management failures.

It's like an orchestra spending months rehearsing their piece, then not bothering to tune their instruments on the night of their performance.

 

[tbtc]

We’ve all got different priorities

Personally I’m less bothered about LEDs and vestibule doors and more concerned about the fact that many months of operation, ScotRail are still generally running “single figures” of HSTs, despite having twenty five sets on the books, but each to their own

Then again, I’m old enough to remember the days when pro-HST people would regularly point out how the loco hauled sets were much easier to reform than DMUs (since you could remove a dodgy coach/ swap struggling Class 43s overnight), but it’s not working that way in reality

 

[scotraildriver]

Things like this are very frustrating to hear, because the whole project is let down by something that should be very easy to fix. After all sorts of difficult, heavy and expensive work is done: welding things together, designing new doors, modifying depot infrastructure, passengers sit in a slightly too chilly train because the train conductor is not attentive enough to notice that all the vestibule doors have been left open.

All that needs to happen surely is that this is made a standard part of checking over the train at the start of the day. It doesn't even have to cost any money and yet it would have a significant impact on passenger comfort.

The lighting is similar: especially if it's true that the existing overbright lighting can in fact be switched to a half-dimmed setting. It just needs someone to notice and press a button. Maybe it's switched onto full brightness also because it's helpful for the cleaners?

Going a bit further, as mentioned a few posts back, I can't imagine it would be that difficult to swap out the light tubes/LED strips or whatever they are for something of a better colour temperature. The cost would be a fraction of everything else that's been done, but have a significant effect on how the trains are perceived by passengers.

All these things are management failures.

It's like an orchestra spending months rehearsing their piece, then not bothering to tune their instruments on the night of their performance.

I suspect it's just that the guards have become so used to them being faulty they don't bother checking. Same with 158 air con, most just switch it off and open windows when quite often a couple of minutes spent doing a reset can get it working.

 

[Christmas]

With GWR now announcing that they will withdraw their HSTs in a year, perhaps ASLEF will now put more pressure on ScotRail to do the same. DMUs will be thin on the ground for lease after this date.

How easily can MK3-HST coaches be modified to run with locomotives other than class 43s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With GWR now announcing that they will withdraw their HSTs in a year, perhaps ASLEF will now put more pressure on ScotRail to do the same. DMUs will be thin on the ground for lease after this date.

How easily can MK3-HST coaches be modified to run with locomotives other than class 43s?

There appear to be a couple of other obvious options for ScotRail - feel free to throw up a speculative thread if you want to discuss them.

Furthermore ScotRail is devolved, so the Scottish Government may not apply the same funding approach to it as England is.

 

[hexagon789]

Twelve sets out today!

(First time there's been double digits in a wee while.)

Wednesday 23rd - 12/15:


HA04 (43130/43135) - 1A33, 1H61, 1A26, 5T98

HA05* (43152/43035) - 1B68, 1A79, 1B82, 1A89, 1T64

HA06* (43177/43147) - 1A71, 1B74#, 1H17, 1T92, 5T93

HA09 (43149/43136) - 1T80, 1H11, 1T88, 1A55

HA10* (43031/43129) - 1T18, 1A39, 1T42, 1A51, 1B96

HA11* (43148/43028) - 1A04, 1T22#, 1A41, 1T46, 1A53

HA13 (43127/43138) - 1A01, 1B78, 1A87, 1T62

HA14 (43179/43034) -1T06, 1A35, 1B84, 1H25

HA16 (43133/43163) - 1A29, 1T26, 1A43, 1B88, 1A93

HA17 (43151/43181) - 5A45, 1A75, 1T54, 1A57

HA25 (43015/43176) - 1H35, 1T84, 1H21, 1B40

HA26 (43125/43141) - 1A77, 1B80

(*HA05, 06, 07, 10 and 11 are 5-car sets)

 

[BRX]

I suspect it's just that the guards have become so used to them being faulty they don't bother checking. Same with 158 air con, most just switch it off and open windows when quite often a couple of minutes spent doing a reset can get it working.

I'd still see that as a kind of management/oversight failure - they should be making sure that staff do bother checking this kind of stuff.

 

[matchmaker]

With GWR now announcing that they will withdraw their HSTs in a year, perhaps ASLEF will now put more pressure on ScotRail to do the same. DMUs will be thin on the ground for lease after this date.

How easily can MK3-HST coaches be modified to run with locomotives other than class 43s?

HST coaches have a 415v 3 phase ETS, fixed head buckeyes and no buffers. Non HST stock uses an 800/1000v DC or single phase AC supply, have drophead buckeyes and retractable buffers. The main problem would probably be the ETS.

 

[scotraildriver]

I'd still see that as a kind of management/oversight failure - they should be making sure that staff do bother checking this kind of stuff.

The bother is if a guard finds the doors isolated it may be for good reason. If someone was then injured by a faulty door that the guard reinstated (and they can be very fierce if something is wrong) they would be in bother. Ideally they should all be checked before leaving the depot but staff and time constraints don't always allow.

 

[CJSwan]

The bother is if a guard finds the doors isolated it may be for good reason. If someone was then injured by a faulty door that the guard reinstated (and they can be very fierce if something is wrong) they would be in bother. Ideally they should all be checked before leaving the depot but staff and time constraints don't always allow.

One quarter of the vestibule doors do not open when you walk up to them.

The next quarter open dreadfully slowly and can take an age to open fully.

The third quarter violently open and close of their own accord even when not in use and the continuous thumping can be heard at the opposite end of the coach.

And the remaining quarter can and will do all three within the same single journey.

I’ve sometimes seen these doors be reinstated at the beginning of a service, then being put back in isolation for all of these faults on many an occasion.

Granted these are just my observations, but I’ve traveled regularly on the HSTs over the last four years and have been witness to many, many different faults, problems and even breakdowns.

 

[hexagon789]

Thursday 24th November - 14/15 plus one ECS:


HA04 (43130/43135) -1T06, 1A35, 1B84, 1H25

HA05* (43152/43035) - 1A29, 1T26, 1A43, 1B88, 1A93

HA06* (43177/43147) - 1A71, 1T22, 1A41, 1T46, 1A53

[HA07* (43183/43134) - 5H75 ECS]

HA09 (43149/43136) - 1H35, 1T84, 1H21, 1B40

HA10* (43031/43129) - 1A77, 1B80, 1H29

HA11* (43148/43028) - 1B68, 1A79, 1B82, 1A89, 1T64

HA13 (43127/43138) -1A33, 1H61, 1A26, 5T98

HA14 (43179/43034) = 1T80, 1H11, 1T88, 1A55

HA15 (43012/43132) - 1A75, 1T54, 1A57

HA16 (43133/43163) - 1T14, 1A37, 1T38, 1A49, 1H77

HA17 (43151/43181) - 1T18, 1A39, 1T42, 1A51, 1B96

HA18 (43142/43145) - 1B70, 1A81, 1T50

HA20 (43150/43137) - 1H09, 1B30, 1A91, 1B98

HA25 (43015/43176) - 1A01, 1B78, 1A87, 1T62

(*HA05, 06, 07, 10 and 11 are 5-car sets.)

 

[Towers]

Back in times of olde part of the ECS shutdown process for an HST included the guard isolating all the vestibule doors, in order to help retain air pressure while the set was stabled. Could it just be that this still happens and the Scotrail bods are better at isolating them than they are at reinstating them?

 

[Northhighland]

Very much so, with an excellent 52,212 Miles per Technical Incident, which is slightly over 3 times better than the GB average and average availability of 97% - I think they have proved themselves.


25 sets and the intention remains to increase diagrams from the Summer timetable next May.

The whole project has had good intentions. The delivery has never come close to matching those intentions.

 

[hexagon789]

The whole project has had good intentions. The delivery has never come close to matching those intentions.

Can't disagree.



Today's allocations (11/15):

HA04 (43130/43135) - 1T80, 1H11, 1T88, 1A55

HA05* (43152/43035) - 1T18, 1A39, 1B84, 1H25

HA06* (43177/43147) - 1B68, 1A79, 1B82, 1A89, 1T64

HA09 (43149/43136) - 1H29

[HA10 (43031/43129) - Failed at Inverness]

[HA11 (43148/43028) - Failed at Edinburgh]

HA13 (43127/43138) - 1T06, 1A35, 1T42, 1A51, 1B96

HA14 (43179/43034) - 1T14, 1A37, 1T38, 1A49, 1H77

HA16 (43133/43163) - 1B70, 1A81, 1T50&

HA18 (43142/43145) - 1A33, 1H61, 1A26, 5T98

HA19 (43037/43125) - 1A01, 1B78, 1A87, 1T62

HA20 (43150/43137) - 1H35, 1T84, 1H21, 1B40

HA25 (43015/43176) - 1A29, 1T26, 1A43, 1B88, 1A93

(*five-car set)

Weekend update:

Saturday 26th (no trains Perth-Dundee): 8 sets

Sunday 27th (no trains Perth-Dundee): 9 sets

 

[haggishunter]

I had to take a short notice trip to Dundee from Edinburgh a few days ago, when I was only expecting to be in Edinburgh from Glasgow. Long story not relevant here.

The northbound trip was on a ScotRail inter7city HST, the return trip was on a class 170. In almost every possible way the difference is light and day in terms of the passenger comfort and ambience onboard. The HSTs bring more capacity, better luggage space and even with the issue of the some of the vestibule doors being stuck open, the passenger saloon was comfortably warm and draught free. The absolute opposite on the 170, where even when the heating is effective, the fluctuation in temperature caused by having large chunks of the side of the passenger seating area open is irritating, are the doors significantly wider than the 385s as I have not noticed this to anything like the same extent on the 385s?

There was even a lesser spotted catering trolley on the HST!

 

[driverd]

With GWR now announcing that they will withdraw their HSTs in a year, perhaps ASLEF will now put more pressure on ScotRail to do the same. DMUs will be thin on the ground for lease after this date.

I can't believe anyone is taking this argument seriously. The RAIB report never explictly said that any other Scotrail DMU would have held up any better at Carmont; they, in some areas, praised the crash-worthiness of the HST - and as someone who puts their face at the front of 1980s built stock on an almost daily basis, I can honestly say I wouldn't fancy my chances any less in a HST, should the worst happen (comment not intended to open a can of worms, more just to point out the silliness of ASLEFs position here).

The HSTs should simply be managed on merit - and it seems like reliability is a huge problem - so replacement on this basis would seem wise - but equally another new fleet (ie: voyagers) may prove no better. Does anyone have the technical details on why this is? Is there any part of HST operation that's so unique it's taking some time for the Scottish depots to get used to?

The absolute opposite on the 170, where even when the heating is effective, the fluctuation in temperature caused by having large chunks of the side of the passenger seating area open is irritating, are the doors significantly wider than the 385s...

I can't imagine the doors are much wider no - if anything I'd suspect narrower. Likely more to do with the airflow dynamics on the unit and where the heating vents are etc. When I've worked with 170s, i generally find they cope quite well unless you're dealing with temperature extremes. Each carriage has 2 independent HVAC modules, so you can get very different temperature extremes at either end of the carriage and everything in-between as you head from one end to the other. From a passenger perspective, I can't honestly say I've ever noticed the temperature in turbostars to be too uncomfortable/variable really (extreme weather days aside) - I generally find them pretty pleasant places to be - but I don't disagree that the aircon isn't the greatest.

 

[hexagon789]

Monday 28th - 11/15


HA01 (43182/43131) - 1A71, 1T22, 1A41, 1T46, 1A53

HA05 (43152/43035) - 5H07, 1H09, 1B30, 1A91, 1B98

HA06 (43177/43147) - 5A45, 1A75, 1T54, 1A57

HA09 (43149/43136) - 1T18, 1A39, 1T42, 1A51, 1B96

HA15 (43012/43026) - 1A77, 1B80, 1H29

HA16 (43133/43163) - 1A33, 1H61, 1A26, 5T98

HA17 (43151/43181) - 1T80, 1H11, 1T88, 1A55

HA18 (43142/43145) - 1B70, 1A81, 1T50

HA19 (43037/43125) - 1A04, 1B74, 1H17, 1T92, 5T93

HA20 (43150/43137) - 1B68, 1A79, 1B82, 1A89, 1T64

HA25 (43015/43176) - 1H35, 1T84, 1H21, 1B40

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't imagine the doors are much wider no - if anything I'd suspect narrower. Likely more to do with the airflow dynamics on the unit and where the heating vents are etc. When I've worked with 170s, i generally find they cope quite well unless you're dealing with temperature extremes. Each carriage has 2 independent HVAC modules, so you can get very different temperature extremes at either end of the carriage and everything in-between as you head from one end to the other

Though the major upside of this is that you very rarely get both entirely broken, so it's rarely absolutely boiling or absolutely freezing, two very common experiences on WCML Mk3s of yore, and more common than not on WCML and XC Mk2s.

 

[jagardner1984]

Aside from the obvious question of how the HSTs will be holding up in 2030 ish, isn’t the lesson of recent Scottish rolling introduction that it takes a while from “wouldn’t it be nice if” to full fleet in service (HSTs, 385s, 365s, Mk5s) so really, for the service, which is already not at pre-Covid levels, arguably demand is being suppressed by strike disruption (ie there is so much, people assume there will be disruption even when there is not), and adding some modest recovery / growth, and the problems fleet have in even keeping the current service rolling …. Shouldn’t the conversations about replacement (be it new build or modifications) be happening with much greater urgency round about now ?

Isn’t there a real risk point in the latter part of this decade when presumably 50+ year old stock will further degrade in performance and other options such as single DMUs will also be approaching end of life ?

Would seem a high possibility of a perfect storm.