Scotrail train travelling with doors open on Borders Railway 27/9/20

[theironroad]

Eschede train disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just a reminder of one time that a passenger (and conductor) failed to operated the emergency brake resulting in the deaths of 101 people. Of course this is the extreme end of the scale.

And probably needing its own thread as this is about doors being open on a ScotRail train rather than general situations as to when use an emergency alarm.

For reference, most modern stock does not automatically apply the brakes immediately but an override allows the driver to stop in the most appropriate place to get help depending on situation.

 

[Malcmal]

The passenger did act immediately by informing the conductor. The conductor then didn't act, citing company policy regarding the operation of the emergency brake.

But that is a big part of the debate here in this thread. Does the passenger go and find a member of staff or operate the brake unilaterally??

And probably needing its own thread as this is about doors being open on a ScotRail train rather than general situations as to when use an emergency alarm.

In that case about 50% of this discussion needs to be relocated to another thread

 

[CC 72100]

I really am in despair reading this thread. Door hanging open and people here seem to think it's fine minus there being a bit of a draft. Good heavens.

You're not the only one. I've tried to explain why stopping the train is safer, but apparently others know better. Although conveniently claim they have no knowledge so shouldn't be expected to have any when challenged.

I'm also guessing that those who take a view that 'people have common sense so don't worry' or 'ah but abroad they do X Y Z' are not keen on maintaining our relatively good safety record or had the miserable experience of attending a fatality.

 

[edwin_m]

Is it correct that there is always a means for staff to isolate and mechanically secure a particular door? If so then the train could continue in safety, probably without a major delay, unless there was a wider system fault that might affect other doors.

 

[DorkingMain]

You're not the only one. I've tried to explain why stopping the train is safer, but apparently others know better. Although conveniently claim they have no knowledge so shouldn't be expected to have any when challenged.

I'm also guessing that those who take a view that 'people have common sense so don't worry' or 'ah but abroad they do X Y Z' are not keen on maintaining our relatively good safety record or had the miserable experience of attending a fatality.

Yes, that's what's upsetting me most reading this. The mixture of "It's not my job to know better" and then they're told better "Well I don't care because...". You'd particularly not expect it from a forum full of people who travel by train are lot and are well aware of the sort of things that can go wrong.

 

[CC 72100]

Is it correct that there is always a means for staff to isolate and mechanically secure a particular door? If so then the train could continue in safety, probably without a major delay, unless there was a wider system fault that might affect other doors.

Broadly speaking yes - say if a door refuses to close at a station when commanded to do so. Manually close it, lock out of use, carry on obeying any rule book restrictions which vary depending on where the door is.

But a door open in traffic/gaining power with a door open - train will be out of service.

 

[Deepgreen]

With respect that is a really ridiculous comparison.
If I am sat near enough to the door to know it’s open I am near enough to shout a warning to anyone going near who hasn’t immediately worked it out from all the noise and wind. It’s not like many people are going to be walking up and down a 170 (or any train without a buffet)

Of course it was meant to be extreme, but the principle is the same - ignore a blindingly obvious problem/expect someone else to know and sort it out, OR be proactive and make sure. Assuming someone always has things under control even when it doesn't seem right is foolish and sometimes disastrous. Also, who is to say what people will do/where they may walk on any train, buffet or not? Let's say a drunk person decides to investigate a nice big hole in the side of the train and falls out or a deaf/blind person doesn't hear/see a warning? Simply put - report it immediately, not when it might seem best. That's what I would do, anyway.

 

[the sniper]

Yes, that's what's upsetting me most reading this. The mixture of "It's not my job to know better" and then they're told better "Well I don't care because...". You'd particularly not expect it from a forum full of people who travel by train are lot and are well aware of the sort of things that can go wrong.

And yet it's been agued here that you don't need a second member of staff onboard anymore because passengers can fend for themselves in an out of course incident. Everyone has a phone nowadays, don't you know...

 

[Deepgreen]

This is getting ridiculous.
Actually, yes! If I can tackle the fire myself, and am confident that I can, then yes, I wouldn't evacuate the building.
In the days of coal fires it was not uncommon for hot coals to tumble out of the fire, and onto the hearth, or even the carpet...you just dealt with it.
Sensible adults do not need a rulebook to take sensible precautions to minimise dangers, reporting a problem as soon as practicable is one of those precautions. Pulling an emergency alarm in the middle of nowhere just because a door is open is not sensible.

Of course my fire example was supposed to be extreme, but your point about tackling the fire is pertinent because the equivalent would be to close the door oneself, which I have done many times on slam door stock in motion (swinging open when not latched) but which is much harder nowadays. Therefore, these days, the equivalent of tackling the fire would be to report the open door immediately or pull the alarm. Of course, not all alarms stop the train automatically these days anyway, but assuming it does, unless there's an overwhelming reason why stopping at that point would be dangerous (extremely unlikely), I pull/push it. I'm speaking from the point of view of a career on the railway, of course, as many here must also be doing.

 

[30907]

Door hanging open...

Now that would be worrying on anything more modern than a Mk3....

Seriously, this story
(1) there was a fault - serious enough
(2) the incident was reported to the guard - correctly
(3) the guard let the train continue to the next station rather than stop it in open country - matter of judgement.

 

[scotraildriver]

This reminds me of the Kegworth plane crash. The pilot shut down the starboard (wrong) engine and the plane crashed. Several passengers had seen flames in the port engine and were surprised when the captain shut down the other one. But they told the enquiry they didn't say anything as the pilot "knew what he was doing". If someone had said to the crew they had seen flames the outcome may have been different.

 

[Lloyds siding]

This reminds me of the Kegworth plane crash. The pilot shut down the starboard (wrong) engine and the plane crashed. Several passengers had seen flames in the port engine and were surprised when the captain shut down the other one. But they told the enquiry they didn't say anything as the pilot "knew what he was doing". If someone had said to the crew they had seen flames the outcome may have been different.

The passengers had told the cabin crew...three of the cabin crew were aware that it was port engine. It was they who did not tell the Captain because 'he knew what he was doing'. Don't blame the passengers....I know it says it was their fault on a website...

 

[Malcmal]

The passengers had told the cabin crew...three of the cabin crew were aware that it was port engine. It was they who did not tell the Captain because 'he knew what he was doing'. Don't blame the passengers....I know it says it was their fault on a website...

I forget where the emergency brake is on a 737...

 

[Meerkat]

Passengers make their own risk vs delay judgment, knowing how long things can take to sort out on the railway.
Passengers also make a judgment on self-responsibility that railways here are not allowed to - ie “if you manage not to notice the bloody great hole in the side of the train and fall out of it then that’s just Darwinism”.

 

[AngusH]

Just to check, do any of the warning notices explicitly state that the alarm should be pulled if the door is open and the train is moving.

I remember that the message about items caught in the door, but I can't remember if it mentions open doors.


(common sense or not)

 

[CC 72100]

Just to check, do any of the warning notices explicitly state that the alarm should be pulled if the door is open and the train is moving.

I remember that the message about items caught in the door, but I can't remember if it mentions open doors.


(common sense or not)

Always used to on slam door mark 3s, don't think I've ever seen it on units. (But then with traction interlock on units, in theory door open and moving can't happen.)

 

[eoff]

As with many aspects relating to safety people make their own judgements and as a passenger I would treat a swinging outward opening door as extremely serious and would try to stop the train and get as far away from it as possible. I have no idea myself if trains can pass with doors open or if there is clearance to other objects trackside.
With the modern sliding doors that only move outwards a short distance I would not be so concerned about that aspect.

Anyone who plans safety systems and procedures needs to take account of human nature, I can think of examples where it seems to me that going overboard on safety is counterproductive but that would get a bit off topic.

 

[jfowkes]

The idea that you wouldn't immediately try to stop the train is ridiculous in my view.

There are so many known and unknown risks to the train and passengers with an open door on a train in motion.

As a passenger with limited knowledge of the train, the crew and your fellow passengers, you can't possibly quantify those risks and say with any degree of certainty "yes, I believe this is a controllable situation". There are just too many unknowns.

The only way you can seriously reduce the risk and control the hazard is to stop the train as soon as safely possible.

 

[MotCO]

Firstly I should state that I am not a railwayman.

Reading through this thread, my immediate thought woud be, if there was no immediate danger (e.g. if it was not a crowded train, if there wasn't a group of lads drinking lager walking through the carriage), to alert at the next station if I knew it was not too far away. However, I am now minded to use the PAU, now knowing it would not automatically come to a halt, and alert the driver of the problem and let him/her decide what to do.

One issue is, is it clear from the wording on the PAU clear that you are not screeching the train to a halt?

 

[Meerkat]

As a passenger with limited knowledge of the train, the crew and your fellow passengers, you can't possibly quantify those risks and say with any degree of certainty "yes, I believe this is a controllable situation". There are just too many unknowns.

Judging whether someone is going to manage to fall out of an obvious hole in the side of the train is well within an ordinary person’s risk assessment capability. We have to drive on Motorways and cross roads you know!

 

[the sniper]

One issue is, is it clear from the wording on the PAU clear that you are not screeching the train to a halt?

A train running with a door open should be stopped, so it doesn't really matter whether it's a unit on which you'll be stopping it directly or the driver will be after talking to you.

 

[HarryL]

From my experience I've seen people pull the emergency stop because somebody fainted on board, so I think the public would be more inclined to try and do something about there being a large windy hole on the side of the train than you'd think.

The idea that you should just leave such a big hazard there and ignore it is a bit mad, multiple things could come from ignoring it, not just people falling out but people being sucked out, objects flying in, depending on which side the doors are open on passing trains could be a huge problem, not to mention the door isn't designed to hang off a moving train and could come lose or rip off.

 

[Bow Fell]

Now that would be worrying on anything more modern than a Mk3....

Seriously, this story
(1) there was a fault - serious enough
(2) the incident was reported to the guard - correctly
(3) the guard let the train continue to the next station rather than stop it in open country - matter of judgement.

Exactly this!

As a Controller, and fully compliant in the Rule Book, if there’s a door open in traffic between stations, the traincrew should be alerted, signaller and control contacted, signaller to make sure nothing passes on any adjacent lines, to confirm no one had fell out and passengers moved out of the affected carriage, and detrained at the next station, train out of service.

That is literally all that will have happened here, but there will always be some sensationalism/exaggeration as to what has happened, don’t get me wrong it is a serious incident.

I’ve had an incident where by a train has lost interlock with a set of doors suspect at fault, now this was between stations, fault finding carried out with no success, so TIS (Traction Interlock Switch) operated, passengers moved away from the coach with set of doors in question and guard to check the doors are still being held. Next station, detrain the passengers, and go forward ECS.

Not one I liked doing (happened to me twice now) operating TIS with passengers still on, but needs must.

 

[O L Leigh]

Actually, on second thoughts...

 

[TUC]

I think many passengers would put it in the 'that's annoying' box and assume they'd close properly at the next station.

i do find it odd how some seem to expect passengers to live in a rules-based world. They're just there to make the journey they want to make, amd hopefully find it respasomably relaxing, not spend time thinking about riule books.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Is this not the second incident in the space of a year involving a Scotrail train in this situation?

I think earlier in the year a packed 334 opened it's doors while the train was in motion between Edinburgh Park and Haymarket.

 

[deltic]

The train is probably virtually empty, there is no-one anywhere near the door, I need to get home to pick up my child - would I risk a possible two hour delay while people tried to sort out what to do with a faulty door or would I leave it till I got to my station before telling someone.

It was not so long ago that we had no rear door on buses and while people occasionally fell out of them the vast majority of people didnt.

 

[jfowkes]

Judging whether someone is going to manage to fall out of an obvious hole in the side of the train is well within an ordinary person’s risk assessment capability. We have to drive on Motorways and cross roads you know!

Judging by the number of accidents on the roads every day, the answer would appear to be "yes, it's entirely possible someone could somehow fall through this".

But as others have pointed out, it's not just about the risks you're aware of (however quantifiable they are), it's the ones you/I might not be able to think of.

And also it's how quickly the risk can escalate. Even if you judge the risk to be acceptable at one point in time, can you guarantee it will remain that way - what are the chances a situation develops and escalates before you have a chance to stop the train?

 

[Efini92]

Isn't there an isolation switch for that, which might have been either faulty or inappropriately used?

There is it’s the traction interlock, however that would only allow the train to take power. With the door being open the emergency bypass switch would also have to be operated to get brake release.
It’s more likely a failure of the door it’s self. The switch in the door that tells the train it’s closed it’s probably failed. It happened on a 158 leaving Leeds a couple of years ago. The door is connected to an arm which moves to lock the door into place, the switch is connected to that arm so it knows when the door is closed. In that incident the arm had detached from the door leaving the door open but the train thinking it was closed, therefore allowing for brake release and power to be obtained.

 

[CBlue]

Judging by the number of accidents on the roads every day, the answer would appear to be "yes, it's entirely possible someone could somehow fall through this".

But as others have pointed out, it's not just about the risks you're aware of (however quantifiable they are), it's the ones you/I might not be able to think of.

And also it's how quickly the risk can escalate. Even if you judge the risk to be acceptable at one point in time, can you guarantee it will remain that way - what are the chances a situation develops and escalates before you have a chance to stop the train?

Can only agree.
I'd pull the alarm and make the train crew aware.

As current global events show, you can't rely on everyone to use common sense. A delay to fix a door is nothing compared to the possible consequences of someone falling out of it.
I certainly wouldn't want to be in a position where I could have prevented someone's death or injury yet didn't.