Should Elizabeth line take over the Thames Valley branches and also Romford - Upminster branch?

[miklcct]

I find it strange that the Thames branches are still operated by GWR nowadays despite the local services on the main line has been transferred to Elizabeth line a few years ago. As GWR no longer operates local trains between Reading and Paddington, the main local operator in the area is now Elizabeth line, whereas GWR's presence are only for the longer-distance services coming from further than Reading.

By bringing these branches to Elizabeth line, all the local services are brought under a single TOC's control which can facilitate better planning and integration of services.

Taking a step further, if Heathrow Express is gone after Elizabeth line runs through the core, the existing Didcot semi-fast can become high-speed running non-stop between Reading and Paddington for Reading commuters, and the whole of the relief line can then be exclusively used by Elizabeth line, removing GWR's presence at intermediate stations, making GWR a purely long-distance operator at London.

In the East, Romford-Upminster is an Overground island not connected to the main Overground network. Using the same reasoning above, transferring it to Elizabeth line can better facilitate planning and integration of the line as well.

Are the above good ideas? Apart from the need that Elizabeth line needs to get some diesel stock for the branches, are there any other reason keeping them as-is?

 

[JonathanH]

I find it strange that the Thames branches are still operated by GWR nowadays despite the local services on the main line has been transferred to Elizabeth line a few years ago.

Where do you propose that the Elizabeth Line keep and service a bespoke fleet of five diesel units to operate the Thames branches?

As GWR no longer operates local trains between Reading and Paddington, the main local operator in the area is now Elizabeth line, whereas GWR's presence are only for the longer-distance services coming from further than Reading.

Have you not noticed that the timing of the branch line trains matches the times of the GWR services at Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough, rather than the Elizabeth Line ones?

Are the above good ideas?

From an operational and practical perspective, no.

 

[tomuk]

Although I don't think giving the rump GWR Thames Valley locals to TfL/Elizabeth is a good idea I would be inclined to transfer them and reading depot to Chiltern.

 

[JonathanH]

Although I don't think giving the rump GWR Thames Valley locals to TfL/Elizabeth is a good idea I would be inclined to transfer them and reading depot to Chiltern.

Huh? How would that make sense?

I appreciate that Network South East had a Thames & Chiltern division which later split into separate businesses but what was once the Thames Trains operation is much more integrated into the wider GWR business nowadays.

 

[NSE]

I suppose you could just brand the DMU’s as Elizabeth Line and then leave the drivers and operations exactly as is. I’m sure the majority of the public wouldn’t bat an eyelid. Though by that logic, why bother changing in the first place. And anyway, even though the role of GWR has changed along that stretch of the line, GWR are still operating services and have a heavy presence with fast trains going straight through using the infrastructure etc.

I do think (and timely as I went to tick off Emerson Park today) that the Romford-Upminster line should be Elizabeth Line branded. Getting two/three four car variants of the 345 can’t be too much to sort. Just having that LO island seems odd. Mind you, with the Lea Valley Line stock based in Ilford, I guess it’s pretty easy.

 

[tomuk]

Network South East had a Thames & Chiltern division

Looks like it was a good idea then. GWR should concentrate on the IC services. The regional/commuter services should be disaggregated so they can be better managed by the devolved authorities.

 

[Wolfie]

I suppose you could just brand the DMU’s as Elizabeth Line and then leave the drivers and operations exactly as is. I’m sure the majority of the public wouldn’t bat an eyelid. Though by that logic, why bother changing in the first place. And anyway, even though the role of GWR has changed along that stretch of the line, GWR are still operating services and have a heavy presence with fast trains going straight through using the infrastructure etc.

I do think (and timely as I went to tick off Emerson Park today) that the Romford-Upminster line should be Elizabeth Line branded. Getting two/three four car variants of the 345 can’t be too much to sort. Just having that LO island seems odd. Mind you, with the Lea Valley Line stock based in Ilford, I guess it’s pretty easy.

Apart from supposed geographic neatness there is no coherent logic that l can see behind this proposal.

 

[Falcon1200]

The regional/commuter services should be disaggregated so they can be better managed by the devolved authorities.

Was that not exactly what happened post-privatisation, only for the franchises to be recombined, in part to simplify operations by having fewer TOCs running into Paddington ?

I would be inclined to transfer them and reading depot to Chiltern.

Why ? Chiltern do not operate anywhere near Reading !!

 

[NSEFAN]

Although I don't think giving the rump GWR Thames Valley locals to TfL/Elizabeth is a good idea I would be inclined to transfer them and reading depot to Chiltern.

Ah, so reopening the line from Bourne End to High Wycombe!?

 

[miklcct]

Looks like it was a good idea then. GWR should concentrate on the IC services. The regional/commuter services should be disaggregated so they can be better managed by the devolved authorities.

Anyway, what do you think will be the best for the Didcot terminators?

Also, there are a few stations between Didcot and Oxford having no Sunday services when the intercity services are the only services running on the line on Sundays.

Is it possible to combine the Oxford - Didcot trains and Didcot - Paddington trains into a single route?

Anyway if the train operators are devolved to local authorities I think Thames Trains can be revived, taking the Didcot semi-fast, Oxford shuttles, and the Thames Valley branches to be managed by Berkshire.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I do think (and timely as I went to tick off Emerson Park today) that the Romford-Upminster line should be Elizabeth Line branded. Getting two/three four car variants of the 345 can’t be too much to sort. Just having that LO island seems odd. Mind you, with the Lea Valley Line stock based in Ilford, I guess it’s pretty easy.

Four car variants of 345s exists already - they’re called 710s. And they can’t go into the core because they’re not equipped, and they’re not 9 car for the PEDs.

Don’t get this appetite to slap Elizabeth line branding on everything. If a service doesn’t touch the core, then it doesn’t need the branding.

Looks like it was a good idea then. GWR should concentrate on the IC services. The regional/commuter services should be disaggregated so they can be better managed by the devolved authorities.

Has GWR struggled to operate the IC services? Seems like pointless faffing to me.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although I don't think giving the rump GWR Thames Valley locals to TfL/Elizabeth is a good idea I would be inclined to transfer them and reading depot to Chiltern.

There was definitely an investigation into transferring just the remaining Greenford service to Chiltern, and it was found there were no operational benefits, especially while GWR still used DMUs on other branches. Reading depot is mainly an EMU depot already, it wouldn’t make sense to transfer only part of its fleet to Chiltern.

 

[daodao]

In the East, Romford-Upminster is an Overground island not connected to the main Overground network. Using the same reasoning above, transferring it to Elizabeth line can better facilitate planning and integration of the line as well.

I agree with this suggested transfer.

 

[306024]

In the East, Romford-Upminster is an Overground island not connected to the main Overground network. Using the same reasoning above, transferring it to Elizabeth line can better facilitate planning and integration of the line as well.

Not sure what better integration you are looking for, given it is a 9 minute run each way on a single line.

 

[JonathanH]

In the East, Romford-Upminster is an Overground island not connected to the main Overground network. Using the same reasoning above, transferring it to Elizabeth line can better facilitate planning and integration of the line as well.

I agree with this suggested transfer

What better planning and integration is actually possible on this line?

It can only run every half hour. The Elizabeth line runs eight trains an hour and more in the peak.

Is there some magic time slot it needs to run in to be 'better integrated' with the Elizabeth Line or are connections into the Greater Anglia stops at Romford or c2c stops at Upminster more relevant because those run less frequently?

It is already integrated into the fare structure. It already appears on the relevant maps. There is no chance of making the physical connection for interchange easier.

 

[geoffk]

Living at some distance from London, I was surprised that Eliz Line was to go all the way to Reading, although turning back at, say, Slough or Maidenhead would be difficult operationally.

 

[30907]

Living at some distance from London, I was surprised that Eliz Line was to go all the way to Reading, although turning back at, say, Slough or Maidenhead would be difficult operationally.

Maidenhead (being the end of almost continuous urbanisation from London) was the original plan, and the western carriage sidings are there.

 

[tomuk]

Was that not exactly what happened post-privatisation, only for the franchises to be recombined, in part to simplify operations by having fewer TOCs running into Paddington ?

Yes the GWR combination was done during a time DfT/SRA? thought one terminal one operator was optimal. This plan wasn't followed through at all terminals and with the rise of Overground/TfL rail has been reversed.

Why ? Chiltern do not operate anywhere near Reading !!

Have you ever heard of a place called Oxford? Or the wider Oxford - Cambridge Arc. A single regional/commuter TOC serving Thames Valley and Chilterns (and even EWR) is completely logical.

 

[JonathanH]

Have you ever heard of a place called Oxford? Or the wider Oxford - Cambridge Arc. A single regional/commuter TOC serving Thames Valley and Chilterns (and even EWR) is completely logical.

Who do you suggest runs Cotswold line services? It seems to be a lot of upheaval for not a lot of gain.

 

[tomuk]

Who do you suggest runs Cotswold line services? It seems to be a lot of upheaval for not a lot of gain.

If they run through to Worcester and are run by 800s GWR. If they are a short turns and run by Turbos these go to Chiltern. Just like lines all over the country with an IC TOC and a local one.

 

[pne]

Where do you propose that the Elizabeth Line keep and service a bespoke fleet of five diesel units to operate the Thames branches?

Well, electrify the branch lines, then.

Simples.

 

[JonathanH]

Well, electrify the branch lines, then.

Simples.

Electrification doesn't change anything to make it more obvious for Elizabeth Line to take over operation of the Thames branches.

So you then need five bespoke units based at Old Oak Depot just to run these services rather than using the electric units already in the GWR fleet? It doesn't make sense.

What exactly are we hoping to achieve for the passenger as a result of transferring the Thames Branch services from GWR to the Elizabeth Line operation?

 

[PeterC]

Would it be better for marketing to have the feeders coloured purple on the map?

If so change the colour on the map and splash some purple paint around. I see no problem about the existing operators running the existing stock "on behalf of the Elizabeth Line"

 

[Agent_Squash]

Would it be better for marketing to have the feeders coloured purple on the map?

If so change the colour on the map and splash some purple paint around. I see no problem about the existing operators running the existing stock "on behalf of the Elizabeth Line"

What is the point of ‘on behalf of the Elizabeth line’ - it’s a line of its own, surely it should be promoted as such?

Unless the service runs into the core, and is operated with the same stock as the rest of the service, there is no point in branding the service as Elizabeth line. You don’t see it with other tube lines, nor has anyone suggested it for the equivalent (Thameslink)

 

[Wolfie]

Would it be better for marketing to have the feeders coloured purple on the map?

If so change the colour on the map and splash some purple paint around. I see no problem about the existing operators running the existing stock "on behalf of the Elizabeth Line"

The Elizabeth Line has a clear coherent purpose and identity. Those should not be deleted by pathetic "neatening up" ideas which actually serve zero useful purpose but do potentially distract management from their primary role.

What is the point of ‘on behalf of the Elizabeth line’ - it’s a line of its own, surely it should be promoted as such?

Unless the service runs into the core, and is operated with the same stock as the rest of the service, there is no point in branding the service as Elizabeth line. You don’t see it with other tube lines, nor has anyone suggested it for the equivalent (Thameslink)

Exactly

 

[JonathanH]

Would it be better for marketing to have the feeders coloured purple on the map

Which map? Do we really need Henley-on-Thames on the underground map for people to realise that there is a rail service there? Who are these people who think that the only railway services around London are the ones on the underground map?

 

[bramling]

I find it strange that the Thames branches are still operated by GWR nowadays despite the local services on the main line has been transferred to Elizabeth line a few years ago. As GWR no longer operates local trains between Reading and Paddington, the main local operator in the area is now Elizabeth line, whereas GWR's presence are only for the longer-distance services coming from further than Reading.

By bringing these branches to Elizabeth line, all the local services are brought under a single TOC's control which can facilitate better planning and integration of services.

Taking a step further, if Heathrow Express is gone after Elizabeth line runs through the core, the existing Didcot semi-fast can become high-speed running non-stop between Reading and Paddington for Reading commuters, and the whole of the relief line can then be exclusively used by Elizabeth line, removing GWR's presence at intermediate stations, making GWR a purely long-distance operator at London.

In the East, Romford-Upminster is an Overground island not connected to the main Overground network. Using the same reasoning above, transferring it to Elizabeth line can better facilitate planning and integration of the line as well.

Are the above good ideas? Apart from the need that Elizabeth line needs to get some diesel stock for the branches, are there any other reason keeping them as-is?

In a perfect world, from an operational point of view Romford-Upminster would be best run as a branch of the District Line, especially with there being a District Line crew depot at Upminster. But it's simply not worth all the changes which would be involved to achieve that.

 

[D365]

Who are these people who think that the only railway services around London are the ones on the underground map?

"Tourists".

But yes, those who need a train know where to find them, especially in the age of smartphones with mapping apps.

 

[cactustwirly]

I find it strange that the Thames branches are still operated by GWR nowadays despite the local services on the main line has been transferred to Elizabeth line a few years ago. As GWR no longer operates local trains between Reading and Paddington, the main local operator in the area is now Elizabeth line, whereas GWR's presence are only for the longer-distance services coming from further than Reading.

By bringing these branches to Elizabeth line, all the local services are brought under a single TOC's control which can facilitate better planning and integration of services.

Taking a step further, if Heathrow Express is gone after Elizabeth line runs through the core, the existing Didcot semi-fast can become high-speed running non-stop between Reading and Paddington for Reading commuters, and the whole of the relief line can then be exclusively used by Elizabeth line, removing GWR's presence at intermediate stations, making GWR a purely long-distance operator at London.

In the East, Romford-Upminster is an Overground island not connected to the main Overground network. Using the same reasoning above, transferring it to Elizabeth line can better facilitate planning and integration of the line as well.

Are the above good ideas? Apart from the need that Elizabeth line needs to get some diesel stock for the branches, are there any other reason keeping them as-is?

I have never heard such a ridiculous suggestion in my life.

GWR still run local services between Reading and London, which start earlier and finish later than TfL.

They also have a diesel depot, and train crew based at Reading which is a lot more convenient than London.
The existing fleet is also required for other local services in the area. So it makes absolutely no sense to move the branches

 

[JonathanH]

In a perfect world, from an operational point of view Romford-Upminster would be best run as a branch of the District Line, especially with there being a District Line crew depot at Upminster. But it's simply north worth all the changes which would be involved to achieve that.

Yes, and Greenford to West Ealing conceivably likewise part of the Central Line, but again totally impossible and pointless to organise, not to mention its role as a through line for freight trains.