• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Southern Class 455 Withdrawal

Status
Not open for further replies.

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
876
You’ll notice soon that some stored Networkers might be headed back to Southeastern, these will replace the Class 377/5 units. Class 377/5 units replace 455s alongside the service reductions. Between now and December the 387/1s displaced by 379s will come south and drivers will get cab conversions. Then in December the 377/5 head to Coastway and replace the 313s.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Peregrine 4903

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2019
Messages
1,456
Location
London
The Brighton to Portsmouth/Southampton services are remaining as they are from May. They are not being cut back to Chichester.
 

tricky18jan

Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
112
Ia there any set diagrams for the 455 units ? I was in London couple weeks back and caught a fee on the Balham to Sutton services but not much else.

I only have 10 left to see

Thanks
Rich
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
7,046
Location
Taunton or Kent
You’ll notice soon that some stored Networkers might be headed back to Southeastern, these will replace the Class 377/5 units. Class 377/5 units replace 455s alongside the service reductions. Between now and December the 387/1s displaced by 379s will come south and drivers will get cab conversions. Then in December the 377/5 head to Coastway and replace the 313s.
Is this verified anywhere?
 

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
876
They were planned to be published today. So unless the plan has changed, should be downstream tommorow.
The reality is that this is version 5.1 of the Southern Railway operations from May 2022. The paths should have been bid for and appearing on TRUST and real-time trains about 2 weeks ago. However DfT couldn’t decide what they wanted to do. Presumably now they have to do something and so this is now it.
 

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,655
You’ll notice soon that some stored Networkers might be headed back to Southeastern, these will replace the Class 377/5 units. Class 377/5 units replace 455s alongside the service reductions. Between now and December the 387/1s displaced by 379s will come south and drivers will get cab conversions. Then in December the 377/5 head to Coastway and replace the 313s.
Makes sense
They have southern interiors still
Drove a few at TL and enjoyed the speed set

455s have pretty uncomfortable seats so won't be missed. The swr ones are far nicer
 

YSTrains

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2021
Messages
149
Location
London
Aren't the 465/2 in a poor condition? We can't forget that the rest of the 707s are to head to SE.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,294
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
You’ll notice soon that some stored Networkers might be headed back to Southeastern, these will replace the Class 377/5 units. Class 377/5 units replace 455s alongside the service reductions. Between now and December the 387/1s displaced by 379s will come south and drivers will get cab conversions. Then in December the 377/5 head to Coastway and replace the 313s.
That's quite a shunt around, but that also gives more clarification about the future of the 379s as well. Cant say I'm surprised to see the 313s binned off though.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
That's quite a shunt around, but that also gives more clarification about the future of the 379s as well. Cant say I'm surprised to see the 313s binned off though.

Looking at RTTT, I make the GN 387 utilisation to be 26 diagrams, all in pairs all day. There is a further changeover of units between Peterborough Nene and Hornsey which would account for a further potential 4 units, though they make no contribution to the passenger service.

This provides a fully 8-car GN 387 service (no 12-car at all), and three Peterborough peak tidal services, so isn’t leaving much in reserve to cater for restoration of passenger numbers.
 

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
876
No speed set usage on Southern.

RTT doesn’t make any sense as what’s currently uploaded is the full timetable which without the 455s cannot operate. Even with the immediate transfer of 377s from southeastern there just won’t be enough stock.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,821
RTT doesn’t make any sense as what’s currently uploaded is the full timetable which without the 455s cannot operate. Even with the immediate transfer of 377s from southeastern there just won’t be enough stock.
RTT makes some sense if it is interpreted as anything with Q (or 'Runs as Required') against it doesn't run and is there simply to preserve the path. Looks like enough is culled to remove the 455s.

A full rewrite to permanently rebalance service patterns seems a bit optimistic before May.
 
Last edited:

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
876
RTT makes some sense if it is interpreted as anything with Q (or 'Runs as Required') against it doesn't run and is there simply to preserve the path. Looks like enough is culled to remove the 455s.

A full rewrite to permanently rebalance service patterns seems a bit optimistic before May.
What culls do you see then?

Milton Keynes shows as required paths in the week and Watford on weekends.

Grinstead remains hourly off peak as is now, again doesn’t free up much stock.

Caterham/Tattenham fasts remain. Had expected them to be pulled off peak.

Unless everything runs as a 4 car unit I just don’t see how this level of service can operate.
 

Class 466

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
1,426
East Croydon to Milton Keynes becomes Clapham Junction to Watford (4 car) from May (See RTT). This will free up a number of 377/2s for metro work to Epsom Downs, Sutton, West Croydon etc.
 

Recessio

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2019
Messages
665
Can't say I'll be too upset to see the SN 455s go, always vastly preferred the SWT ones.

Cannot WAIT for the 313s to be gone down here on East Coastway, was such a downgrade when we lost the Electrostars...

East Croydon to Milton Keynes becomes Clapham Junction to Watford (4 car) from May (See RTT). This will free up a number of 377/2s for metro work to Epsom Downs, Sutton, West Croydon etc.
This is what I always predicted London Overground would do to the service if Metro got devolved to TfL as a sensible rationalisation step to free up stock for the rest of Metro.
 

Nicks

Member
Joined
17 Jun 2012
Messages
101
This is what I always predicted London Overground would do to the service if Metro got devolved to TfL as a sensible rationalisation step to free up stock for the rest of Metro.

I don't see why the Overground could not now run the Clapham Junction to Watford services - how many extra units would they need?
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,821
I don't see why the Overground could not now run the Clapham Junction to Watford services - how many extra units would they need?
Just repurpose 710374-710379, three of which aren't yet in use anyway. Seems like an ideal fleet for this service freeing up a few more 377s.
 

Class 466

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
1,426
I don't see why the Overground could not now run the Clapham Junction to Watford services - how many extra units would they need?
Clapham to Watford is 3 circuits going by the timings in RTT.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
10,481
Location
Farnham
The current Southern service passes through ten London Overground stations without stopping so that would surely be confusing
 

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
876
The current Southern service passes through ten London Overground stations without stopping so that would surely be confusing
No it doesn’t.
London Overground is self contained on the Watford DC Lines, Southern operates on the WCML. To my knowledge LO do not sign the WCML so they’d need route learning for a start. The southern services passes BY not THROUGH the LO stations.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,821
The current Southern service passes through ten London Overground stations without stopping so that would surely be confusing
It really wouldn't be confusing - it would just be shown as a separate line on the map with interchanges at Wembley Central and Harrow & Wealdstone.

As pointed out in the subsequent posting the idea does fall down on the need to train staff.

There are plenty of advantages though, in particular Southern no longer having to maintain dual voltage stock
 
Joined
7 Jan 2009
Messages
864
I don't see why the Overground could not now run the Clapham Junction to Watford services - how many extra units would they need?
Eh? Have you ever dealt with TfL? They don't just do trains, but bring a whole massive service concept with them: platforms to have Roundels, drivers to be trained TfL standards, platform at WFJ to be fully accessible, etc. All good stuff from a customer viewpoint but involves a lot more than shunting fleets around. And, as another post reminds us, the WFJ trains would have to run on a real main line, not just the DC lines, so can you imagine the preparation that the staff, managers and high-ups would need to be able to cope with that?

More seriously, the GTW to MKC service has been a poor relation ever since it began and this latest throw of the dice seems to indicate that it's now practically on the way out altogether. Despite going for c. 20 years (thanks, Connex), it's not really been relieable enough (including how far it runs from year to year) to build up a regular market for what otherwise would should be quite a handy service, particuarly going via Westfield and Kensington (now cut off from the tube once again...) The cutback to start it from CLJ some years ago also seemed to eat into traffic.

When we look back on this sorry tale, it will probably feel that it is a classic triumph of the railway's operations functions over its commercial colleagues (hardly the only such example....) Running through unfriendly territory north of West London Line Jnc and barely tolerated in its own 3rd rail homeland, it was always being fingered for holding back PPM on both sides of the Thames. Really? It was (sorry, I should say 'is') only 1tph!!!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top