Southern Class 455 Withdrawal

[Nicks]

Eh? Have you ever dealt with TfL?

I'm a TfL contractor on the Underground/Overground/TfL Rail but I take your point!

 

[Benno]

You’ll notice soon that some stored Networkers might be headed back to Southeastern, these will replace the Class 377/5 units. Class 377/5 units replace 455s alongside the service reductions. Between now and December the 387/1s displaced by 379s will come south and drivers will get cab conversions. Then in December the 377/5 head to Coastway and replace the 313s.

The six class 387/3s currently with c2c are also heading to Southern.

 

[JonathanH]

The six class 387/3s currently with c2c are also heading to Southern.

Three of them aren't currently with c2c.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Who says? Three of them aren't currently with c2c.

Benno often provides invaluable contributions to threads such as the SW Metro thread, and indeed was the first to inform us of the 456s demise back when nobody believed it! I personally consider his updates to be very reliable indeed.

 

[physics34]

Funnily enough they have southern interiors (as i was told last week)

 

[JonathanH]

Benno often provides invaluable contributions to threads such as the SW Metro thread, and indeed was the first to inform us of the 456s demise back when nobody believed it! I personally consider his updates to be very reliable indeed.

Ah right. I hadn't picked that up but noted that there was still consideration of the aforementioned 387s with GWR. Guess GWR aren't keeping them then.

All getting very complicated.

 

[brad465]

Funnily enough they have southern interiors (as i was told last week)

If the 377/5s go to Southern, they also have Southern interiors (as SE only bothered to modify the paintjob on the outside slightly).

 

[nw1]

I haven’t heard anything but:
- Milton Keynes requires ten 377s and keeps being axed

- Portsmouth and Southampton to Brighton will be simply Chichester to Brighton from May

No direct links along the coast from Hampshire to the Brighton area at all? Are there going to be any alternatives? For example restoring the old '38' or '46' Victoria-Gatwick-Hove-Portsmouth/Southampton fasts? These required a change at Hove for Brighton, but were fast, which was good.

If they want efficiency without turning away customers, the '38' and '46' were good ways of doing this as they combine the Hampshire-Brighton (via change at Hove) and Hampshire-Gatwick markets. Just as long as they are fast, e.g. Chichester-Barnham-Worthing-Shoreham-Hove-HH-Gatwick only.

I know they're old, but if they can be kept going, they should keep the 455s.

 

[Benno]

Ah right. I hadn't picked that up but noted that there was still consideration of the aforementioned 387s with GWR. Guess GWR aren't keeping them then.

All getting very complicated.

Yes, three of the 387/3s are still with GWR, but this sub-lease will end soon. They will all end up with Southern as they are being replaced by new build Aventra's anyway (eventually).

 

[Peregrine 4903]

No direct links along the coast from Hampshire to the Brighton area at all? Are there going to be any alternatives? For example restoring the old '38' or '46' Victoria-Gatwick-Hove-Portsmouth/Southampton fasts? These required a change at Hove for Brighton, but were fast, which was good.

That post is incorrect.

 

[43096]

Yes, three of the 387/3s are still with GWR, but this sub-lease will end soon. They will all end up with Southern as they are being replaced by new build Aventra's anyway (eventually).

The three with GWR are now directly leased to GWR. The sub-lease from c2c ended in September.

 

[nw1]

That post is incorrect.

Ah right ok, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Jturner98]

I’m sure someone could explain it to me but I don’t see how 46 units can be replaced with 377s. Maybe even more if the 313s go. The only was I could see it potentially being feasible is if the 379s take over on the Great Northern side therefore cascading 387s south. Otherwise I can’t see how they can have they many available

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That post is incorrect.

Ah right ok, thanks for clarifying.

Well, yes, apologies - I had mixed up short term engineering work timetables with the permanent deal.

 

[Class 466]

I’m sure someone could explain it to me but I don’t see how 46 units can be replaced with 377s. Maybe even more if the 313s go. The only was I could see it potentially being feasible is if the 379s take over on the Great Northern side therefore cascading 387s south. Otherwise I can’t see how they can have they many available

You may not see it currently, but come May you will!

 

[trainmania100]

Assume the 455s are still very prominent on both weekdays and weekends on both the tat and caterham branches? Or do 377/6s do these?

 

[sussexbythesea]

What are the chances of any Farewell railtour?

 

[Jturner98]

Assume the 455s are still very prominent on both weekdays and weekends on both the tat and caterham branches? Or do 377/6s do these?

Don’t think 455s run on the Tattenham Corner line anymore. They still run to Caterham via South Bermondsey and London Bridge - East Croydon

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Don’t think 455s run on the Tattenham Corner line anymore. They still run to Caterham via South Bermondsey and London Bridge - East Croydon

On Saturday's they run to Coulsdon Town, and when there are engineering works, sometimes 455's run to Tattenham Corner.

 

[Goldfish62]

On an individual unit basis, haven’t a few SWR already gone to Long Marston?

Yes, but from what I've read on the forum there won't be any more going until withdrawals start in earnest concurrent with the 701s entering service.

 

[bramling]

I’m sure someone could explain it to me but I don’t see how 46 units can be replaced with 377s. Maybe even more if the 313s go. The only was I could see it potentially being feasible is if the 379s take over on the Great Northern side therefore cascading 387s south. Otherwise I can’t see how they can have they many available

I've always said that they could do two out of 313, 365 and 455, and that includes getting the 379s (but doesn't include the 377/5s).

Any more than two out of the three fleets and it can't be done without a severe reduction in peak services and/or capacity.

It looks like we're going for the latter...

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Will southern services stop at Anerley and Penge West in May while the class 455 going to be withdrawn?

 

[mmh]

Will southern services stop at Anerley and Penge West in May while the class 455 going to be withdrawn?

Why wouldn't they? Every stock ever used by Southern, bar 442 and 313, has.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Ok

 

[aleggatta]

I’m sure someone could explain it to me but I don’t see how 46 units can be replaced with 377s. Maybe even more if the 313s go. The only was I could see it potentially being feasible is if the 379s take over on the Great Northern side therefore cascading 387s south. Otherwise I can’t see how they can have they many available

Just done some maths on this -

46 455s and 19 313s gives us 65 units to replace

If the following enter GTR

SE subleased 377's: 25 (23 /5s and 2 /1s

379's: 30 (to cascade 29 387/1s from GN to SN)

387/3's: 6

gives an electrostar fleet addition of 60 south of the river

add to the mix of the possibility for some 700's being available north of the river for peak extras, and a larger 377 fleet meaning a rebalance on number of units needing to be stopped for maintenance (i.e. more available), I can see this working.

If the traction courses for drivers were changed to 'electrostar' rather than 377 specific, and 'project aurora' to make 377/387 units compatible enough for passenger service, you could have a mixed fleet of 301 units for the whole south of the river GTR operation. Without project aurora you still have the option to confine 387/1's to 455 routes or Brighton mainline services, but not knowing the fleet requirements for this service pattern I couldn't say for sure. There is also the question of what happens to the GX service and fleet usage, and how long the grace period that is available due to the low uptake in passenger numbers post covid that could facilitate this fleet shuffle.

If the planners can make it work, it sounds like a dream! not saying it won't be pushed to its limits if numbers increase dramatically, but after this the only way to increase capacity and retain compatibility with the rest of the fleet would be to either use 379's with a conversion to DC and new fleet on GN, or if they released some electrostars from SE when the fleet to replace the 465/6 is ordered.

(I know, current trends seem to be that no new fleets for SE at this time, but not knowing pre or post covid numbers for fleet usage I can't compare 301 electrostar units to what was/is actually required for service, or what would be a sensible number for future flexibility.)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

gives an electrostar fleet addition of 60 south of the river

why do this an increase the fleet massively when you can achieve the same by cutting services no longer needed or which provide duplication?

 

[Siemens Staines]

The three with GWR are now directly leased to GWR. The sub-lease from c2c ended in September.

Very recently (last few days?) 387302 has had its C2C logos replaced by GWR logos which would seem strange if it was just about to leave GWR?. 387306 has had most, but not all, of its C2C logos removed but not received any GWR logos. I have not recently seen 387301.

 

[swt_passenger]

How might the 377/3 car units fit into this plan? If they‘re presently forming 10 car (4+3+3) trains, what happens if those services become 8 car, and the 3 cars go back to the coastway where they operated a few years ago?

(Apologies if this seems like speculation…)

 

[JonathanH]

gives an electrostar fleet addition of 60 south of the river

I fail to see why so many units are needed as some Southern services are surely ripe never to return. If a sustainable position can be reached with the May timetable why bring in any extra units at all?

In particular, the cuts on the Milton Keynes route take the unit requirement from 10 to 3. Guildford saves a unit. London Victoria to Caterham / Tattenham peak workings aren't needed and so on.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I fail to see why so many units are needed as some Southern services are surely ripe never to return. If a sustainable position can be reached with the May timetable why bring in any extra units at all?

In particular, the cuts on the Milton Keynes route take the unit requirement from 10 to 3. Guildford saves a unit. London Victoria to Caterham / Tattenham peak workings aren't needed and so on.

If you look at the May 22 timetable, the London Victoria - Sutton, London Victoria - London Bridge, Brighton - West Worthing and Brighton - Lewes services are also all gone.

I'm not sure if some of those changes are permanent or not, but there is defintley a need for less units at the moment.