Southern Timetable Change September 2022

[PGAT]

The other 2 are Epsom Downs and East Croydon services, which are both formed from 8 coaches earlier in the day so the units are there.

 

[Capvermell]

I have just looked at the current live departures board at www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/ockley and five trains are shown. The 1029, 1129 and 1229 to Horsham and the 1051 and 1151 to Victoria. Of these five services only the 1029 to Victoria is a 10 car train (I'm pleased to see I was not imagining that some 10 car trains are still running to Horsham via Dorking) and the 1051 and 1151 to Horsham and the 1129 and 1229 to Victoria are both 5 car trains.

Of course that still begs the question as to why only the 2325 from Victoria to Horsham via Dorking is a 5 car train and why that train now always leaves from platform 13 at Victoria (a Gatwick Express platform) when prior to September 5th it always ran as a 5 carriage unit that nearly always departed from Platform 9 and was not way down beyond the end of a long out of service train as we now have to suffer every day on the 2325 on Platform 13 (causing many people new to the situation to be confused by the train at the concourse end of the station that appears to be part of one long train and that the doors won't open on).

Is there any site anywhere that historically records the length of trains running on each service given that Southern themselves clearly have this data in a trains data feed or they wouldn't be able to show it at www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/ockley But this information is not shown by any historic train departure info sites such as realtimetrains........

 

[Capvermell]

I have just looked at the current live departures board at www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/ockley and five trains are shown. The 1029, 1129 and 1229 to Horsham and the 1051 and 1151 to Victoria. Of these five services only the 1029 to Victoria is a 10 car train (I'm pleased to see I was not imagining that some 10 car trains are still running to Horsham via Dorking) and the 1051 and 1151 to Horsham and the 1129 and 1229 to Victoria are both 5 car trains.

Of course that still begs the question as to why only the 2325 from Victoria to Horsham via Dorking is a 5 car train and why that train now always leaves from platform 13 at Victoria (a Gatwick Express platform) when prior to September 5th it always ran as a 5 carriage unit that nearly always departed from Platform 9 and was not way down beyond the end of a long out of service train as we now have to suffer every day on the 2325 on Platform 13 (causing many people new to the situation to be confused by the train at the concourse end of the station that appears to be part of one long train and that the doors won't open on).

Is there any site anywhere that historically records the length of trains running on each service given that Southern themselves clearly have this data in a trains data feed or they wouldn't be able to show it at www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/ockley But this information is not shown by any historic train departure info sites such as realtimetrains........

I meant to say that begs the question why only the 2325 from Victoria to Horsham on a weekday is now a 4 carriage train (used to always be 5 carriages before September 5th) and all other services between Victoria and Horsham via Dorking are 5 cars, 8 cars or 10 cars.

 

[LA50041]

I meant to say that begs the question why only the 2325 from Victoria to Horsham on a weekday is now a 4 carriage train (used to always be 5 carriages before September 5th) and all other services between Victoria and Horsham via Dorking are 5 cars, 8 cars or 10 cars.

Needs to be a 4 car to balance stock and make up an 8 car at Horsham for the following day

 

[Capvermell]

Needs to be a 4 car to balance stock and make up an 8 car at Horsham for the following day

It didn't need to do that before September 5th so presumably the service it became the next day was then a 10 car train (made up of 2 five car units). Also the 2325 to Horsham via Dorking is always a much busier service than the 2025, 2125 and 2225 (none of which even existed between December 2003 and May 2018 in terms of running on south of Dorking) so four carriages doesn't fit at all with actual passenger demand for seats on the service. And that is why last Thursday (20th October) large numbers of people were standing up in the two carriages nearest to the barriers (or to the out of service train this train always waits in the platform beyond the end of) because Horsham services via Gatwick turned in to an RRB at Three Bridges that night so inevitably all the normal Horsham via Gatwick passengers going to Horsham got on our train instead since it was the only one showing on the Victoria departure Boards as going to Horsham. Southern have combined two trains (i.e. Epsom Slow service and Horsham Semi Fast) and then on top made the resulting combined 2325 train four carriages instead of five. So of course it is now packed out on the last service of the day later on in the week. Surely the solution is to make the train from Horsham the following morning a 10 car train and not a 5 car one............................

Also as you possibly seem to have some kind of inside track on what is going on with Southern stock movements and/or platform allocation decisions on the combined new all stations stopper to Horsham and also in particular why the 2325 now leaves from Platform 13 at the end of an out of service train (not sure how many carriages that out of service one is but it seems a fair few and more than four when trying to reach the four carriage 2325 that is down the end of it) perhaps you could also explain the permanent change of usual platform for the 2325 to Horsham via Dorking from Platform 9 to Platform 13? As it isn't a Gatwick Express or even a train going down the Gatwick Airport line surely it shouldn't be leaving from platform 13?

Also can you tell me if there is a website anywhere showing what number of carriages each train operated with during any given day on any service on Southern that has already run after the event? Southern seems to provide this information on its online departure boards for the next couple of trains each way but it doesn't seem to be available anywhere else as a more complete record of the day's movements (its not shown by RealTimeTrains et al). Bottom line is Southern has merged the Semi Fast to Horsham with the slow to Epsom and also reduced the number of carriages from 5 to 4 on the 2325 making the seat loading factor on this train 250% higher than was previously the case. And it has done all of this without any form of consultation whatsoever. No posts or information at the stations about it. Just nothing at all.........

Looking at the current www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/ockley shows a random assortment of 5, 8 and 10 carriage trains on just those five services in the next couple of hours.

Real TimeTrains provides the following info on each individual train but not the number of carriages and or the different multiple units involved in each train. Of course if I could decode the UID, TSC, SSuX or TRUST ID information then perhaps there is a way to find out? "Pathed as Electric Multiple Unit" doe not seem exactly helpful when it does not state what type of Multiple Unit it is but only that its Planned for 100mph Max, although in reality no train on this line ever travels much above 70mph, even when its travelling at full whack

• UID L41897, identity 2I13
  TSC 24785000
• SSuX - 05/09/2022 to 09/12/2022
• Ordinary Passenger
• Great Britain (Network Rail, TPS)

• Pathed as Electric multiple unit
  Planned for 100mph max
• Driver only operated
• Standard class only seating

• TRUST ID 872I13MC27
• Activated 27/10/2022 06:17

 

[Capvermell]

I see the 1641 and 1741 Horsham via Hackbridge service from Victoria today are both 10 car showing some kind of effort by here by Southern to match train length to passenger demand (especially with these now being the consolidation of the former semi fast to Horsham and the slow service to Epsom). But Off Peak train formations on the route seem to be much more random in terms of 4 cars, 5 cars and 8 cars.

If only I could get hold of a run of data for train formations from Victoria to Horsham via Hackbridge (as Southern officially entitle them when leaving Victoria) over the whole period since September 5th and/or also for the old semi fast services in the weeks before September 5th.

I see the 1641 and 1741 Horsham via Hackbridge service from Victoria today are both 10 car showing some kind of effort by here by Southern to match train length to passenger demand (especially with these now being the consolidation of the former semi fast to Horsham and the slow service to Epsom). But Off Peak train formations on the route seem to be much more random in terms of 4 cars, 5 cars and 8 cars.

I take the above back as the 2041 to Horsham from Victoria was shown as an only 4 carriage train on which "Even Standing Space Is Limited" (the worst level of seat availability show for almost no other trains leaving Victoria at this time of day). Probably not helped by the 2111 slightly faster service to Dorking (misses Ewell East and Boxhill) being cancelled but even so what the hell is their justification for putting on only a 4 carriage train that replaces two trains (pre September 5th) that were always more than 4 carriages at this time of night. DfT seems to have really overdone it re getting more passengers per train out of the Victoria to Horsham merger with the Victoria to Epsom service.

Things will only get worse as we head on in to the pre Christmas shopping and London outing season...........

I'm looking at some more rolling stock allocations on services from Victoria to Dorking and vica versa as best I can (since I can only see rolling stock allocations on services listed for the next couple of hours whenever I look at www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/london-victoria and www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/ockleyas opposed to from Victoria to Horsham via Hackbridge) and I think the really big question has to be why Southern isn't always allocating a 10 car unit to the merged Horsham via Hackbridge hourly service that is likely to always have a high level of passenger demand and occupancy other than on services with a statistically proven lower level of use such as very late morning and very early afternoon or especially mid evening after the rush hour period so for instance the 2141 and especially the 2241 to Horsham via Hackbridge (which has another train to Horsham via Hackbridge running only 44 minutes after it in the shape of the final 2325 service due to the bizarre failure to change the 2325 service to run at 2341 as would have been logical other than it means paying for a station supervisor at Dorking for 16 minutes longer) should only be 4 or 5 car trains (but stupidly the 2241 always seems to be a little used 10 car train) but services known to be likely to be busy such as those inbound to Victoria in the morning rush hour and outbound from Victoria in the evening rush hour.

Ditto the final 2325 service to Horsham via Hackbridge should always be a 10 car train on at least a Thursday and Friday leaving aside that there is still no 2325 to Horsham via Hackbridge on a Saturday (and indeed no service at all after the 1741 from Victoria) when that service would be busiest of all if Southern and /or DfT weren't still too mean spirited to run such a train on both Saturday and Sunday night (the only cost is the train crew and the electricity as the three stations from Dorking to Horsham are totally unmanned and there also don't really need to be hourly mid evening services and every 2 hours after the 1941 departure from Victoria would do) despite the vast numbers of trains and train crews they have now saved by merging the Horsham via Hackbridge Semi Fasts with an Epsom slow train every single hour all day from Monday to Friday and between 7pm and 5pm on Saturday.

Instead of which I have just looked at the Ockley departures board and see a 10 car train that will be mainly empty to the 1351 to Horsham and the 1429 to Victoria is also 10 cars, although that is the same train that terminates at Horsham and then runs back to Victoria. But I don't see any clear attempt at all being made by Southern train planning staff to correlate train length and train capacity on the new merged slow all station stoppers from Victoria to Horsham with the likely level of customer demand to travel on each of those services.

.......

I doubt that is due to shortage of stock. At least one of them (the Reigate service) is booked for a 4 coach train.

What would be nice is to understand the basis on which Southern/GTR does allocate stock and therefore how train lengths are assigned to particular services on a particular route as I can't currently see any pattern to which services get which length of train unit from Victoria to Horsham via Hackbridge and vica versa since the changes implemented on 5th September.

Likely passenger loading on a particular service certainly does not seem to be their main or only criteria in deciding on the number of carriages to be operated on any particular train service on our line under the new and massively altered timetable that has existed for just over 7 weeks.

I see the 1541 Victoria to Horsham via Hackbridge today is going to be rammed because its only 5 carriages (Friday being a day when people tend to go home early) but the 1641 will be reasonable because its a 10 carriage train according to www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/station-information/stations/ockley. Surely might have been more helpful if the 1541 had been an 8 carriage train...........

1741 and 1841 to Horsham via Hackbridge today are both 10 carriages so some effort there to match capacity to demand but seems to be a lot more erratic at other times of day with 10 carriages still provided when they don't appear to be needed and 4 carriages provided where 8 would be more suitable.

 

[PGAT]

Something interesting I found in the timetable is that the 1400 from Victoria to Sutton (curtailed from Epsom Downs) is booked as only 4 coaches. As a result, this off-peak service is full and standing until Norbury.

 

[Watershed]

This odd one is curtailed at Sutton to allow rhtt down the branch. As it’s absolute block it’s impossible to fit it in otherwise.
It splits at Vic before the 1400 to allow one portion for a trip to Stew Lane for CET or to allow a swap out of a unit if necessary.

Absolute block? The Epsom Downs line was converted to TCB many decades ago!

 

[LA50041]

Absolute block? The Epsom Downs line was converted to TCB many decades ago!

Try and timetable 2 trains down the branch at the same time. They’ll be rejected

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Try and timetable 2 trains down the branch at the same time. They’ll be rejected

The biggest issue is that it's single line 1 train working so can only have 1 train down there at a time. Nothing to do with absolute block.

 

[PGAT]

The biggest issue is that it's single line 1 train working so can only have 1 train down there at a time. Nothing to do with absolute block.

Looking at the timetable it’s quite inefficient. When it arrives into Sutton at 1446 it has to reverse twice in total before leaving 35 mins after. I don’t see why the 1400 from Victoria couldn’t terminate at Belmont and reverse there.

That way, a train will arrive into Belmont at 1452 or possibly earlier which allows 11 minutes to clear the single track branch line.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Looking at the timetable it’s quite inefficient. When it arrives into Sutton at 1446 it has to reverse twice in total before leaving 35 mins after. I don’t see why the 1400 from Victoria couldn’t terminate at Belmont and reverse there.

That way, a train will arrive into Belmont at 1452 or possibly earlier which allows 11 minutes to clear the single track branch line.

Signalling only allows for 1 train on the Epsom Downs branch at a time and the signalling is not equipped to turn trains back at Belmont.

 

[Capvermell]

The 2325 service from Victoria to Horsham via Hackbridge and Dorking was an 8 carriage unit with power sockets last night rather than the 4 car Electrostar units with no power sockets we have been suffering on the 2325 ever since the September 5th merger of the slow Epsom with the semi fast Horsham via Dorking services that ought not to have affected the 2325 service at all since it was already an all stations stopper prior to September 5th rather than a semi fast service. But this was just as well as the final Southern service of the night to Horsham was once again cancelled so all of its passengers going to Horsham were also on our train too. Even so the train was close to standing room only in the middle carriages of the train after calling at Clapham Junction, although some of those passengers don't try too hard to find a seat as they are getting off again within 5 to 15 minutes. I did manage to get a seat without someone sitting next to me but only across the table from me in Carriage 1 (the front of the train).

Can I hope that Southern train planners have finally got the message and that the 2325 to Horsham via Dorking will be at least an 8 car unit from now on at least both Thursday and Friday nights.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Provision of power sockets on 4/8/12 carriage 377s is completely random, as they all had none in standard class originally but are all being progressively fitted with them, /4 variant first. Most if not all /4s are now done, but /1 and /4 share diagrams so as I said, pot luck.

Second generation 377s which are all 5 carriages all have plugs.

 

[JonathanH]

Most if not all /4s are now done, but /1 and /4 share diagrams so as I said, pot luck.

Moving onto /1s now. I travelled on 377112 on Thursday with plugs.

 

[fkofilee]

That's because absolutely massive changes have already been implemented, especially those on September 5th completely altering service patterns from Horsham to Victoria via Dorking by abolishing the Semi Fasts and extending slow services to Epsom stopping at all stations all the way out to Horsham.

Also all Southern fast services up the Arun Valley corridor to London Bridge that ran in the morning and evening peaks have been completely eliminated and you can only now get to or from London Bridge from Horsham direct using Thameslink services starting at and terminating at Horsham. So you are out of luck if you want tables, wifi or power sockets to London Bridge from Horsham in Standard Class unless you know about the fact that the rear 1st Class Cabin on a Thameslink train is apparently declassified as 1st Class and so can be used for charging your mobile if you can get a seat. I have only been told the rear carriage 1st Class on a Thameslink is declassified by others and it may be untrue but I doubt that you would have an issue as long as you could show you were charging something at the time (because you couldn't do it in second class) and immediately agreed to move elsewhere if challenged on not having a first class ticket.

But as Thameslink trains are absolutely awful for long comfortable travel due to no tables, wifi or second class power sockets the loss of Southern rush services from Horsham to London Bridge in the morning and evening peaks is to be very much regretted.

Can confirm this is true - You can actually check the PIDs on the screen as it scrolls through and will tell you that "Passengers with Standard Class tickets may use this area"

 

[ThameslinkUser]

It's also prominent on Thameslink's First Class page.

Where first class is available, this can be found at the very front of the train. The first class compartment at the rear of Thameslink trains is always declassified.

 

[Capvermell]

Can confirm this is true - You can actually check the PIDs on the screen as it scrolls through and will tell you that "Passengers with Standard Class tickets may use this area"

When you say PIDs do you mean the train destination information screens on each platform that a Thameslink train is leaving from? If so I hadn't noticed them and will have to check when I am next travelling with Thameslink rather than on Southern (I travel on Southern services a lot more than on Thameslinke). When you say the messages say "Passengers with Standard Class tickets may use this area" how does the message make clear what the actual first class seating area involved is? Also in my experiences on Thameslink trains there are just as many non first class passengers sitting in the 1st class carriage at the front of the train (which is not declassified) as at the back of the train. It is also a total penny pinching outrage that these very new current generation Thameslink trains entered service without power sockets available at all seats or without any wifi internet capability or without tables installed between face to face seating areas that quite clearly have room for them to be installed. And Thameslink/GTR does not seem to have any current active program in operation to remedy this bad situation.

On my local Southern services from Ockley to Victoria or Horsham due to history where most of the services on the line were operated for some years by trains that only had standard class accommodation all 1st class accommodation on Southern Electrostar trains running from Horsham to Victoria via Dorking, Epsom and Hackbridge is declassified and can be used by standard class passengers. I have both been assured of this by Train Supervisors on the services in question and also it is obvious from the many clearly non 1st class passengers who routinely use these areas and are not asked to move to Standard Class. Yet I am not aware of any messages on the passenger information screens for these services that actually communicates messages to that effect. Also I think the other reason that the Southern 1st Class seating space is declassified between Horsham and Victoria via Dorking and Hackbridge is because if travelling from Dorking to Waterloo on SouthWestern train services their trains only have standard class accommodation, even though the Southern and South Western trains follow a different route to London from stations north of Epsom. However on Southern trains there is no reason to use 1st class accommodation to charge electronic devices as Electrostar trains either have power sockets throughout at all seats in 1st class and standard class or otherwise on older non upgraded units the only power sockets they have are a single socket by one set of entrance doors in each carriage that I have had cause to use in an emergency when my phone battery power is either very low or I am out of power.

One point that might help a lot on Southern is if online train service information lookup facilities (on Southern's website since clearly NationalRail seems to incapable of such a feat on its website) could actually show which services are being operated by trains with power sockets available at all seating positions on the train and which are not.

 

[Capvermell]

It's also prominent on Thameslink's First Class page.

But why or how was this decision to declassify first class accommodation at the rear of Thameslink services occur in the first place? Presumably the decision to declassify the rear 1st class seating area is a direct consequence of the failure to install power in standard class anywhere on current Thameslink trains.

I wonder how long it will be before a 1st class annual season ticket holder on Thameslink asks for a refund of a substantial part of their ticket cost on this basis?

 

[30907]

But why or how was this decision to declassify first class accommodation at the rear of Thameslink services occur in the first place? Presumably the decision to declassify the rear 1st class seating area is a direct consequence of the failure to install power in standard class anywhere on current Thameslink trains.

Curious logic - it was done because first class was under-used, surely?

 

[Verulamius]

Curious logic - it was done because first class was under-used, surely?

First class has always been declassified in the rear for the 700s from their introduction. In addition, first class is always declassified on the Suttons, Rainham, Sevenoaks and Orpington trains.

If you look at the thameslink timetables, if there is no 1 lable, then there is no first class on the service, ie it is all declassified.

 

[30907]

First class has always been declassified in the rear for the 700s from their introduction.

Thanks. So over-provided rather than under-used, but my point stands.

 

[Capvermell]

Curious logic - it was done because first class was under-used, surely?

Is that the reason that First Class has been declassified but without that fact being directly advertised to passengers on services from Victoria to Horsham via Dorking and Epsom then? I thought it was actually because when the decision was taken some Southern trains on the route didn't have any 1st Class accommodation at all so some passengers would be being sold a ticket type they can't reliably or consistently use.

Strangely that decision has never been reviewed despite all Southern trains from Victoria to Horsham via Epsom now having 1st Class accommodation.

I think you will find the rear carriage declassification of 1st class is actually done by Thamelink as a remedy for passenger anger over lack of charging facilities in standard class when many of these passengers would no doubt otherwise be very difficult about being told they had to move to standard class and stop charging their device or pay a surcharge on their ticket in order to be upgraded to have the right to stay in 1st class accommodation.

 

[Capvermell]

Thanks. So over-provided rather than under-used, but my point stands.

First Class isn't over provided on Thameslink trains at all as the number of seats in both absolute numbers and as a percentage of total carrying capacity must be way lower than on any Electrostar trains.

The real reason the rear 1st class seating area has been declassified is surely quite clearly in order to overcome passenger anger about lack of tables and lack of charging facilities on Thameslink trains despite there still being extremely new.

 

[bramling]

First Class isn't over provided on Thameslink trains at all as the number of seats in both absolute numbers and as a percentage of total carrying capacity must be way lower than on any Electrostar trains.

The real reason the rear 1st class seating area has been declassified is surely quite clearly in order to overcome passenger anger about lack of tables and lack of charging facilities on Thameslink trains despite there still being extremely new.

My belief is it was done because of the significant reduction in seating availability on a 700/0 compared to something like 2x317, 2x319, 2x365, which is what they replaced.

For consistency this had to be applied to the 700/1s as well. Remember that in the early days on GN, the rear section *wasn’t* declassified on GN non-core services. This quickly changed as it simply became too difficult to manage. If any group needed pacifying it was GN users, who generally have longer journeys than on the Midland side, and of course were used to decent trains in the form of the absolutely superb 365s.

 

[fkofilee]

I heard a rumour that it had been declassed because of TFL upon procurement of stock of the 700s - Couldnt remember the specifics of it though.
But it could be just a rumour.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

When you say PIDs do you mean the train destination information screens on each platform that a Thameslink train is leaving from?

It does say it on those, but more often than not the message cuts off half way through.

The message is also shown on the screens inside the trains themselves as part of the information being scrolled through regularly.

 

[30907]

Is that the reason that First Class has been declassified but without that fact being directly advertised to passengers on services from Victoria to Horsham via Dorking and Epsom then? I thought it was actually because when the decision was taken some Southern trains on the route didn't have any 1st Class accommodation at all so some passengers would be being sold a ticket type they can't reliably or consistently use.

All London suburban services (= wholly within the then LPTB area) were made 2nd class only in about 1941. First Class was available to Dorking etc long after that on the Arun Valley services, of course

The real reason the rear 1st class seating area has been declassified is surely quite clearly in order to overcome passenger anger about lack of tables and lack of charging facilities on Thameslink trains despite there still being extremely new.

Apart from your assertion, can you provide a source?

 

[Capvermell]

All London suburban services (= wholly within the then LPTB area) were made 2nd class only in about 1941. First Class was available to Dorking etc long after that on the Arun Valley services, of course

Presumably by LPTB you are referring to the predecessor of London Transport that took over running of the tube and bus lines in London from the formerly privatised tube line operators. However this presumably has no bearing at all on my interest in 1st Class accommodation declassification on Thameslink services (run by GT Railway/GoAhead Group) that operate both outside and inside Greater London and are subject to their own fare regime and not that of London Transport. As a consequence of this non London Transport rail operators can and still do operate 1st Class accommodation on rail services running inside the Greater London boundary on which ticket inspection staff can demand the possession of a first class ticket.

Thameslink operate such 1st class branded accommodation on their services but for whatever reasons declassify it (on a rather covert basis that only regular travellers on the line will generally become aware of) being first class in the rear carriage of each Thameslink train with the consequence that those seats are always very popular as only 1st class built accommodation has power sockets hidden (for whatever mysterious reasons as there clearly could be signage indicating the location of the power sockets at table level) below the seats on these trains.

This still does not assist with the quite extraordinary failure to install wifi internet anywhere on these extremely modern Fujitsu built trains including in 1st Class.

Apart from your assertion, can you provide a source?

The source is the application of that increasingly rare commodity these days known as "common sense".

That is those commissioning the design of these trains took an exceedingly short sighted decision not to install power sockets or tables in second class to save tuppence hapenny. This lack of power provision and table surfaces has understandably upset those doing two hour plus journeys on these trains with a phone and laptop so to try to offset that understandable passenger anger the rear carriage 1st class accommodation has been quietly declassified on these trains to tr to pacify those travelling long distance needing to power their laptop or mobile phone.

I don't need to quote a source to prove my own deductive reasoning but if you can quote a source to prove that my deductive reasoning is incorrect then kindly please do so...................

 

[Capvermell]

The message is also shown on the screens inside the trains themselves as part of the information being scrolled through regularly.

I have never noticed that is the case but I will watch more carefully next time I am travelling on a Thameslink train.