SSR resignalling

[rebmcr]

As mentioned up thread, SMA 11 has been descoped and SMAs 10 & 12 have been shortened:
10 Barons Court-Stamford Brook
11-Chiswick Park-Ealing Broadway
12 Fulham Broadway-East Putney
these are likely to be done after SMA 14 is commissioned.

I find this very interesting indeed — I had taken it as read that SMAs 9 13 & 14 would inevitably be descoped as well, therefore leaving all of the Piccadilly and National Rail interfaces untouched. Even SMA 8 with its Jubilee ECS moves seemed doubtful to me.

I agree that once the 'hard bit' is over the line with the Chiltern and Uxbridge sections, the prospect of revisiting the western District branches looks far rosier. But first let's wait and see what happens with fixing the Earl's Court software bug!

 

[Snow1964]

I find this very interesting indeed — I had taken it as read that SMAs 9 13 & 14 would inevitably be descoped as well, therefore leaving all of the Piccadilly and National Rail interfaces untouched. Even SMA 8 with its Jubilee ECS moves seemed doubtful to me.

I agree that once the 'hard bit' is over the line with the Chiltern and Uxbridge sections, the prospect of revisiting the western District branches looks far rosier. But first let's wait and see what happens with fixing the Earl's Court software bug!

Progress on SMA 9, 13, 14

4.15 Design and installation of the trackside signalling assets continues on the Uxbridge and Amersham branches of the Metropolitan line beyond Preston Road; known as Signalling Migration Areas (SMA) 9, 13 and 14. In SMA9, 74/91 assets are installed; in SMA13, 75/185 assets are installed; and in SMA14, the design is being completed to allow the installation to commence from summer 2022. March 2023 is targeted for all the installation to be completed.

The existing signalling on District western branches allows upto 16 trains per hour

4.21 As reported to the Committee in July 2021 following a review assessing and challenging costs and schedules for the Programme, the western branches of the District line will not be re-signalled. This means sections of the District line south of East Putney and west of Stamford Brook will remain under the existing signalling. Journey times in these sections will remain unchanged, however, we can still increase frequencies to up to 16 trains per hour, as originally planned.

On Metropolitan would cost more to continue to maintain old signals

4.23 Replacing life-expired signalling is key to achieving cost effective management of our asset base. Though we may be able to achieve some immediate savings by not signalling the Metropolitan line branches, in the longer term we will spend more than we save and do not achieve any customer benefits. Despite the challenges the Programme has faced, investing in the capability of the new signalling continues to represent good value for money

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s18265/pic-20220720-item10a-4LM.pdf

 

[rebmcr]

Progress on SMA 9, 13, 14


The existing signalling on District western branches allows upto 16 trains per hour


On Metropolitan would cost more to continue to maintain old signals

Super informative, thanks!

 

[swt_passenger]

What happened about the proposal a couple of years ago to send the Piccadilly to Ealing Broadway replacing the District, and send the trains to Richmond and Wimbledon instead? Is that cancelled or on the back burner?

 

[Dstock7080]

What happened about the proposal a couple of years ago to send the Piccadilly to Ealing Broadway replacing the District, and send the trains to Richmond and Wimbledon instead? Is that cancelled or on the back burner?

That may still come about.
With the new Gunnersbury/Turnham Green sidings and drawings emerging of Piccadilly fast to local crossover just west of Turnham Green, anything possible!

 

[swt_passenger]

That may still come about.
With the new Gunnersbury/Turnham Green sidings and drawings emerging of Piccadilly fast to local crossover just west of Turnham Green, anything possible!

Ok thanks. I was trying to find the last discussion of it, (without much success). I think you posted about depot access and crossovers being significant to the project a while ago.

I suppose based on the news from the board papers 16 tph is possibly the long term service to Wimbledon, so would Picc to Ealing now possibly mean far more District trains to Richmond than now? Or does it just mean there’s no expected problem with 16 tph to Wimbledon and it could still increase a bit?

 

[Snow1964]

Ok thanks. I was trying to find the last discussion of it, (without much success). I think you posted about depot access and crossovers being significant to the project a while ago.

I suppose based on the news from the board papers 16 tph is possibly the long term service to Wimbledon, so would Picc to Ealing now possibly mean far more District trains to Richmond than now? Or does it just mean there’s no expected problem with 16 tph to Wimbledon and it could still increase a bit?

Not all the trains on the Wimbledon branch go all the way to Wimbledon, it is (or was) possible to reverse elsewhere eg Parsons Green.

There is still lots of space just south of Gunnersbury which would allow reversing sidings (at one time there were 5 platforms, although car parks associated with the IBM (now BSI) tower block are on site of 3 of the platforms. From memory both Wellesley Road and A4 overbridges have space for extra tracks. Between Gunnersbury and Richmond, overground trains share the tracks (and BR signals the line)

 

[swt_passenger]

Not all the trains on the Wimbledon branch go all the way to Wimbledon, it is (or was) possible to reverse elsewhere eg Parsons Green.

That’s correct, but the end state peak service diagram didn’t show any short workings on the branch, just 8 tph to Edgware Rd and 8 tph via Victoria from Wimbledon. With 8 tph each from Ealing Broadway and Richmond that gave the full 32 tph at Earls Court.

 

[rebmcr]

Ok thanks. I was trying to find the last discussion of it, (without much success). I think you posted about depot access and crossovers being significant to the project a while ago.

I suppose based on the news from the board papers 16 tph is possibly the long term service to Wimbledon, so would Picc to Ealing now possibly mean far more District trains to Richmond than now? Or does it just mean there’s no expected problem with 16 tph to Wimbledon and it could still increase a bit?

I don't believe there is any indication from LU that it's the plan, but it strikes me as a reasonable idea for the District to take over services via Park Royal. Uniform stock on those lines (S7 and S8), and I believe there are plenty of S7 trains spare — though I am unsure whether this will remain the case once Circle frequency uplift is introduced, nor indeed whether there would be enough for an Uxbridge service or just Rayner's Lane.

Also relevant is the order size for 2024 Tube Stock, it would not be good to end up with too many Piccadilly units.

 

[notverydeep]

What happened about the proposal a couple of years ago to send the Piccadilly to Ealing Broadway replacing the District, and send the trains to Richmond and Wimbledon instead? Is that cancelled or on the back burner?

That may still come about.
With the new Gunnersbury/Turnham Green sidings and drawings emerging of Piccadilly fast to local crossover just west of Turnham Green, anything possible!

The Piccadilly to Ealing Broadway plan is dependent on the second - currently unfunded - re-signalling component of the Piccadilly line upgrade. At this later stage re-signalling is also likely to be required on the Wimbledon and possibly Richmond branches (presumably funded as part of the same Piccadilly upgrade package) of the District line to take the displaced trains and improve frequencies on those busier branches. Such a re-signalling seems very unlikely before the 2030s with the current uncertainty about funding.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't believe there is any indication from LU that it's the plan, but it strikes me as a reasonable idea for the District to take over services via Park Royal. Uniform stock on those lines (S7 and S8), and I believe there are plenty of S7 trains spare — though I am unsure whether this will remain the case once Circle frequency uplift is introduced, nor indeed whether there would be enough for an Uxbridge service or just Rayner's Lane.

Also relevant is the order size for 2024 Tube Stock, it would not be good to end up with too many Piccadilly units.

I thought the idea was that to run a much higher Piccadilly frequency through that line’s central core, it needed another western branch. The proposal I was asking @Dstock7080 about is carrying on earlier discussions, suggesting that the District would not run west of Turnham Green, except to/from the depot.

 

[notverydeep]

I thought the idea was that to run a much higher Piccadilly frequency through that line’s central core, it needed another western branch. The proposal I was asking @Dstock7080 about is carrying on earlier discussions, suggesting that the District would not run west of Turnham Green, except to/from the depot.

Yes, it is the plan for the Piccadilly to take over the Ealing Broadway branch of the District and have a much higher (33-36 tph) Central London service. This would in turn will allow the busier Wimbledon and Richmond branch frequencies to be increased by diverting the Ealing Broadway services. This plan is not however part of the current Subsurface Upgrade project (4LM) and the extra works required are not part of that project. As I indicated in the post above, this plan does not yet have committed funding for the re-signalling of the Piccadilly and relevant parts of the District required to enable it or the additional 2024 stock trains that would be required above the base order (which is just the fleet required for the maximum peak service that is feasible without re-signalling). It is very uncertain when this funding will become available and of course a chance that it never will...

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, it is the plan for the Piccadilly to take over the Ealing Broadway branch of the District and have a much higher (33-36 tph) Central London service. This would in turn will allow the busier Wimbledon and Richmond branch frequencies to be increased by diverting the Ealing Broadway services. This plan is not however part of the current Subsurface Upgrade project (4LM) and the extra works required are not part of that project. As I indicated in the post above, this plan does not yet have committed funding for the re-signalling of the Piccadilly and relevant parts of the District required to enable it or the additional 2024 stock trains that would be required above the base order (which is just the fleet required for the maximum peak service that is feasible without re-signalling). It is very uncertain when this funding will become available and of course a chance that it never will...

Thanks - that’s very much what I’d remembered. So we should probably just leave discussion for a future new thread, I’ll put it in the diary for 2032.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Yes, it is the plan for the Piccadilly to take over the Ealing Broadway branch of the District and have a much higher (33-36 tph) Central London service. This would in turn will allow the busier Wimbledon and Richmond branch frequencies to be increased by diverting the Ealing Broadway services. This plan is not however part of the current Subsurface Upgrade project (4LM) and the extra works required are not part of that project. As I indicated in the post above, this plan does not yet have committed funding for the re-signalling of the Piccadilly and relevant parts of the District required to enable it or the additional 2024 stock trains that would be required above the base order (which is just the fleet required for the maximum peak service that is feasible without re-signalling). It is very uncertain when this funding will become available and of course a chance that it never will...

This discussion has made me wonder if there will be a need for the current level of Picc service to Heathrow once Crossrail is running through Paddington to central London. I would expect more passengers from Heathrow would see that as a faster route. That would free up trains to run to Ealing (to bring this on topic)

 

[Central]

That may still come about.
With the new Gunnersbury/Turnham Green sidings and drawings emerging of Piccadilly fast to local crossover just west of Turnham Green, anything possible!

If the Picc goes to Ealing Bdy will there still be an Uxbridge/Rayners Lane service?

 

[richardcoughla]

If the Picc goes to Ealing Bdy will there still be an Uxbridge/Rayners Lane service?

I would think there would be a service to Rayners Lane to Uxbridge. They will probably to an Oylimpa style service but with a Monday to Sunday service.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I would think there would be a service to Rayners Lane to Uxbridge. They will probably to an Oylimpa style service but with a Monday to Sunday service.

If - one day - Picc line trains taking over Ealing Broadway meant a diminution on the Rayners Lane branch, that might be very unpopular with users of the latter. As someone who once lived out that way, I remember complaints that once the Hounslow branch extended to the airport, then the other western branch of the Piccadilly became the poor relation. (Both in terms of frequency, and in particular the times of last trains of a night.)

 

[Recessio]

The report linked to in post #291 says it will not, as the legacy signalling is perfectly capable of delivering the required TPH

Ah thank you, I didn't catch that part. Cheers

 

[notverydeep]

If the Picc goes to Ealing Bdy will there still be an Uxbridge/Rayners Lane service?

Yes, there would still be a through service from Central London to Rayners Lane and Uxbridge. This is why the proposal can only be implemented once core peak frequency has increased to at least 30 tph, to avoid reducing the Rayners Lane, Uxbridge and Heathrow branch services while providing 6 tph to Ealing Broadway - once later (so far unfunded) stages of the Piccadilly line Upgrade have been implemented. The 33 or 36 tph proposed service allows this to happen alongside an increase in the Heathrow branch service, which is more intended to improve the service at the busy intermediate stations on this corridor which are not served ore even close to the alternative Elizabeth line service to the Airport. @FormerBritInMe this would remain worthwhile despote the Elizabeth line route very likely taking a good slice of the Central London to Heathrow traffic...

 

[swt_passenger]

If the Picc goes to Ealing Bdy will there still be an Uxbridge/Rayners Lane service?

Yes. As I posted earlier it would be an “additional” branch needed to reverse the higher frequency coming from the core part of the route. There’ll also be a corresponding number of extra train reversals to deal with at the north end of the route, but that’s getting well off topic for SSR.

 

[Dstock7080]

Tower Hill 9A,9B 10 points to the east of the station, will finally be commissioned 23 October 2022
allowing eastbound & westbound trains another route and now gives S8 trains reversing facilities west of the station.

 

[philthetube]

Tower Hill 9A,9B 10 points to the east of the station, will finally be commissioned 23 October 2022
allowing eastbound & westbound trains another route and now gives S8 trains reversing facilities west of the station.

Pedantic I know but S7's, S8's on the met only.

 

[Dstock7080]

Pedantic I know but S7's, S8's on the met only.

full details in Traffic Circular 22, of S8 berths available at Tower Hill

 

[AlbertBeale]

full details in Traffic Circular 22, of S8 berths available at Tower Hill

Why would that be? Is it for S8s coming round from Aldgate during disruption, for them to use the new points to reverse back east (ie anti-clockwise)?

 

[Dstock7080]

Why would that be? Is it for S8s coming round from Aldgate during disruption, for them to use the new points to reverse back east (ie anti-clockwise)?

correct.

 

[Snow1964]

Couple of date updates from latest TfL Board Investment progress Report (page 14)

Four Lines Modernisation
Signalling system upgrade on the District line passenger services
Since commissioning signal migration area five in March 2022, the underlying system performance has been good. A revenue software uplift was rolled out in November 2022 to address a safety issue identified following it being brought into revenue service. This means temporary mitigation measures can be removed.

Jan 2023 for area 6, March 2023 for area 7

Signal migration areas six and seven (eastern end of the District line) are planned to be brought into revenue service in January 2023 and March 2023 respectively.

From page 19, the end date

Our forecast completion date, when the final signal migration area 14 between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge, will be brought into service, is still Quarter 4 2025.

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s19226/Q2%2022-23%20IPR%20Combined%20PART%201_Public%20Paper_FINAL_6%20Dec%2022.pdf

 

[Dstock7080]

Couple of date updates from latest TfL Board Investment progress Report (page 14)

Jan 2023 for area 6, March 2023 for area 7

14/15 January SMA 6
(provisionally) 18/19 March SMA 7.
‘completion’ of course without:
East Putney-Wimbledon
Stamford Brook-Richmond/Ealing

 

[Gigabit]

When is the work to East Putney supposed to be completed please?

 

[Dstock7080]

When is the work to East Putney supposed to be completed please?

Work has just begun installing new track mounted transponder tags between Fulham Broadway and Putney Bridge.
Also new axle counter boxes around Ravenscourt Park and Stamford Brook.

On 14 January there won’t be any District services on the entire Line until 10.30-10.45. Between 11.00 and 14.00 no service Whitechapel-Upminster. After 14.00 trains will then run empty from Stepney Green-Becontree until authorisation is received for passenger operation in CBTC SMA 6.

62mph 56mph will now be achievable in several locations:
West Ham-Bromley WB
Plaistow-Upton Park EB/WB
Upton Park-East Ham EB/WB
Upney-Becontree EB/WB

the maximum speed has been reduced slightly to 90kph/56mph as a problem with tag reading at the higher speed has been identified.

 

[Scotrail88]

Work has just begun installing new track mounted transponder tags between Fulham Broadway and Putney Bridge.
Also new axle counter boxes around Ravenscourt Park and Stamford Brook.

On 14 January there won’t be any District services on the entire Line until 10.30-10.45.
Trains will then run empty from Stepney Green-Becontree until authorisation is received for passenger operation in CBTC SMA 6.

62mph will now be achievable in several locations:
West Ham-Bromley WB
Plaistow-Upton Park EB/WB
Upton Park-East Ham EB/WB
Upney-Becontree EB/WB

What was the current speed limited to at those locations?

Presume just some resiliency built into the timetable rather than shaving time