Storm Frank: impact on West Coast and Highland Mainlines

[NotATrainspott]

Would it be correct to say that the reason for this problem is that they re-used the Victorian masonry bridge piers? If so, would this not mean that in future, when such bridge replacements are necessary over rivers which could see flooding, that the replacement work will have to be significantly more involved?

 

[najaB]

Would it be correct to say that the reason for this problem is that they re-used the Victorian masonry bridge piers? If so, would this not mean that in future, when such bridge replacements are necessary over rivers which could see flooding, that the replacement work will have to be significantly more involved?

The piers had withstood 100+ winters, and no doubt were extensively surveyed at the time and found to be sound. There's no way to know that the same problem wouldn't have occurred with modern concrete piers.

 

[The Prisoner]

Apparently ticket acceptance Warrington Central - York - Edinburgh on FTPE and VTEC finished on Friday. So having traveled up that way we can't go back that way on a VTWC 1st advance.

Slight problem...my car is at Warrington Central and the alternate routes throw us back to Bank Quay.

VTWC's twitter feed basically told me to go to station and argue with someone?! Real helpful.

Why the Donald Duck can't VTWC look after their Edinburgh customers? A two hourly Edinburgh - Preston shuttle via York would solve pretty much everything.

 

[najaB]

Slight problem...my car is at Warrington Central and the alternate routes throw us back to Bank Quay.

Oh the horror, a ten minute walk!

Edit: Okay, that might be insensitive if you are of limited mobility - get a taxi and try to claim the cost back from Virgin (delay repay would more than cover it if you take it as cash).

Why the Donald Duck can't VTWC look after their Edinburgh customers? A two hourly Edinburgh - Preston shuttle via York would solve pretty much everything

With what diesel stock?

 

[QueensCurve]

The piers had withstood 100+ winters, and no doubt were extensively surveyed at the time and found to be sound. There's no way to know that the same problem wouldn't have occurred with modern concrete piers.

Is it not the case that modern bridges use deep-piled foundations and are less prone to disruption by scouring in floods?

 

[najaB]

Is it not the case that modern bridges use deep-piled foundations and are less prone to disruption by scouring in floods?

Generally speaking, yes, but that's dependant on the ground conditions. I'm not an engineer but people who are looked at the options and concluded that reusing the existing piers was the best option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh the horror, a ten minute walk!

Edit: Okay, that might be insensitive if you are of limited mobility - get a taxi and try to claim the cost back from Virgin (delay repay would more than cover it if you take it as cash).

Must admit this is a general problem with acceptance. Often it is announced that you can, say, instead of the WCML at MKC use Chiltern from Aylesbury if there is severe disruption - but then acceptance is withdrawn before home-time. Then one's car is stuck!

In my view if acceptance is offered it should be available for the return journey of everyone who took it up on the outward, certainly on the same day.

With what diesel stock?

Could hire some in from the railtour operators, perhaps? That said, I think (being on it today) what they are doing is largely working. That said I did get sick of the long queue for Edinburgh buses at Carlisle (I think they underestimated it a bit, though they have signed it well) and instead am now on the ScotRail stopping service on the GLSW, the Voyager having gone before I changed my mind
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A question on this, by the way - is Delay Repay applicable (presumably based on use of the bus, which I think would mean either 30mins or an hour), as I bought my ticket before the disruption?

 

[najaB]

A question on this, by the way - is Delay Repay applicable (presumably based on use of the bus, which I think would mean either 30mins or an hour), as I bought my ticket before the disruption?

I would say it is if you had made reservations at the time as you would be able to show evidence of a delay against the timetable that existed at the time. If you didn't have a reservation, any delay would have to be based on the current published timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say it is if you had made reservations at the time as you would be able to show evidence of a delay against the timetable that existed at the time. If you didn't have a reservation, any delay would have to be based on the current published timetable.

So nowt on the way out as I've done something completely different to the reservation, but perhaps yes on the way back because I'll be doing something very close to it (actually leaving earlier for the same arrival time but taking longer)? This sort-of makes sense.

 

[Class 170101]

Why the Donald Duck can't VTWC look after their Edinburgh customers? A two hourly Edinburgh - Preston shuttle via York would solve pretty much everything.

With what diesel stock?

Pathing is more likely to be an issue given 125mph running will be needed on ECML and capacity crunch through Leeds. Are East Coast also extending some services from Newcastle to Edinburgh? This will impact on paths available over this section.

As far as diesel stock there are no carriages capable of 125mph. If a path was available at 110mph on the ECML you mught have more chance. However what stock and traction did Scotrail hire in for the recent Forth Road Bridge closure?

 

[Class83]

Virgin have provided a reasonable alternative for passengers from London-Edinburgh/Glasgow. However, they have achieved this largely at the expense of passengers from the West Midlands to Edinburgh/Glasgow (Passengers from the North West have the alternative of the Transpennine fix which is slightly better).

Terminating the London-Birmingham Scotland trains at Preston, leaves the option of either waiting at Preston for nearly an hour for the Euston-Trent Valley-Carlisle service, or travelling from Preston to Carlisle on the Transpennnine then waiting nearly an hour for the Carlisle-GSW-Glasgow service which has of course been timed to suit the Trent Valley service. To further improve matters they are not offering reservations on any of the replacement services.

Given that the route of the M74 makes bustituting Carlisle-Glasgow much easier than Carlisle to Edinburgh, it would seem more sensible to take the Voyagers off the GSW and loan them to XC (with possibly the XC HSTs to VTEC) to strengthen services in return for full ticket acceptance on their routes. With the cancellations there should be paths from Edinburgh-Glasgow via Carstairs.

 

[Class 170101]

Virgin have provided a reasonable alternative for passengers from London-Edinburgh/Glasgow. However, they have achieved this largely at the expense of passengers from the West Midlands to Edinburgh/Glasgow (Passengers from the North West have the alternative of the Transpennine fix which is slightly better).

Terminating the London-Birmingham Scotland trains at Preston, leaves the option of either waiting at Preston for nearly an hour for the Euston-Trent Valley-Carlisle service, or travelling from Preston to Carlisle on the Transpennnine then waiting nearly an hour for the Carlisle-GSW-Glasgow service which has of course been timed to suit the Trent Valley service. To further improve matters they are not offering reservations on any of the replacement services.

Given that the route of the M74 makes bustituting Carlisle-Glasgow much easier than Carlisle to Edinburgh, it would seem more sensible to take the Voyagers off the GSW and loan them to XC (with possibly the XC HSTs to VTEC) to strengthen services in return for full ticket acceptance on their routes. With the cancellations there should be paths from Edinburgh-Glasgow via Carstairs.

Voyagers on XC and WC are now different so crews don't sign them otherwise that would make sense.

As for Crewe journeys to Scotland NRES suggests change at Preston for TPE and then connecting bus to Glasgow or Crewe to Preston then TPE to Lockerbie then connecting bus to Edinburgh. Interchanges of around 15 minutes each time.

 

[The Prisoner]

CBA quoting various posts above but in no particular order 1) Might only be a 10-15 walk between Warrington Bank Quay and Central, but maybe we have luggage etc? 2) Preston - Edinburgh shuttle could surely be routed to avoid Leeds? 3) Preston - Edinburgh shuttle would be Virgin Voyagers - assumedly tilt disabled.

As a last resort surely they could route a Glasgow Central to Edinburgh shuttle (or extend the Carlisle one) via Motherwell and Carstairs - can't be an issue with paths there....

 

[daikilo]

Generally speaking, yes, but that's dependant on the ground conditions. I'm not an engineer but people who are looked at the options and concluded that reusing the existing piers was the best option.

Nothing I have seen says that this viaduct doesn't have deep-routed foundations. What we see in the photograph is stonework displaced at near surface level from what is probably the inner side of the water flow i.e. possibly pulled out by suction as the water flow moves between the pillars. I would maybe be more concerned by the pillar on the outside of the water-flow although such suction could also undermine the central pillar.

 

[najaB]

CBA quoting various posts above but in no particular order 1) Might only be a 10-15 walk between Warrington Bank Quay and Central, but maybe we have luggage etc?

Given that the railway has managed to get you 100+ miles rather than leaving you stranded in Edinburgh it does seem a little churlish to complain about being 500m away from your intended destination. One of you can walk to the car and bring it back, or pay £5 for a taxi.

2) Preston - Edinburgh shuttle could surely be routed to avoid Leeds?

It could, but Edinburgh-Newcastle paths will be difficult to come by.

3) Preston - Edinburgh shuttle would be Virgin Voyagers - assumedly tilt disabled.

Ah, finally a use for all those Voyagers that VTWC has lying around. What's that? Oh, really?

 

[Class 170101]

CBA quoting various posts above but in no particular order 1) Might only be a 10-15 walk between Warrington Bank Quay and Central, but maybe we have luggage etc? 2) Preston - Edinburgh shuttle could surely be routed to avoid Leeds? 3) Preston - Edinburgh shuttle would be Virgin Voyagers - assumedly tilt disabled.

As a last resort surely they could route a Glasgow Central to Edinburgh shuttle (or extend the Carlisle one) via Motherwell and Carstairs - can't be an issue with paths there....

Naviating Warrington isn't easy - I didn't find it easy the first time I went there. There is a route via or avoiding Leeds but Mirfield would still be a pinch point as would the ECML between Newcastle and Edinburgh as I pointed out.

 

[Quakkerillo]

Doesn't Warrington have free shuttle buses in the city anyway?

 

[amcluesent]

Every little helps; I assume West Coast Trains Limited and Abellio ScotRail will apply?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35269135

Every household, business or charity in Scotland directly affected by flood water will get a grant of £1,500, Nicola Sturgeon has announced.

 

[47271]

HML seems to be ready to roll again from tomorrow going by Scotrail Twitter

 

[najaB]

HML seems to be ready to roll again from tomorrow going by Scotrail Twitter

Excellent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Might it be the case that Edinburgh is actually easier to bustitute because it doesn't have quite so bad a traffic problem, as nobody in their right mind drives there?

FWIW, TPE are also running Carlisle-Glasgow buses. The TPE doesn't arrive at Carlisle in time for the VT shuttle (though passengers can instead use the ScotRail service as I did today[1] if on walk-up fares as they are valid that way anyway).

[1] 4-car 156, table to myself all the way, and not much slower than the presumably overcrowded (judging by the number of people I saw heading to it) single Voyager.

 

[Zoidberg]

Might it be the case that Edinburgh is actually easier to bustitute because it doesn't have quite so bad a traffic problem, as nobody in their right mind drives there?

...

Hmmm, perhaps I am not in my right mind, but I don't usually experience many difficulties getting about the city in a car. Now, parking in and around the city centre can be challenging, but driving? Not so much.

 

[185143]

Doesn't Warrington have free shuttle buses in the city anyway?

Not free, costs 20p which will hardly break the bank, but they only operate during daytime hours so even for someone taking a 6PM train off Euston they are useless.

As an aside, Ive booked a TPE advance WGN-EDB for the 8th Feb. From reading this thread I doubt Im going by train! Is there cross ticket acceptance between VTWC and TPE and could I catch a VTWC shuttle to Glasgow and Scotrail to Edinburgh? Im travelling onto Wick ultimately, with a WGN-EDB advance and Tweedbank-Wick Anytime day single
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Doesn't Warrington have free shuttle buses in the city anyway?

oh, and we're only a town

 

[Class 170101]

Im travelling onto Wick ultimately, with a WGN-EDB advance and Tweedbank-Wick Anytime day single

How much was the Tweedbank to Wick bit?

 

[185143]

How much was the Tweedbank to Wick bit?

Guess

(Ill help you and say I've got a railcard)

 

[LeylandLen]

I see that Scotland play England at rugby at Murrayfield in Edinburgh on evening of Sat Feb 6th so thats an added complication to WCML being closed if as it seems work and closure has to go on in February. I know many rugby fans from Lancs will have booked weekend in Scotland with advance tickets although of course London based fans can travel Kings Cross to Edinburgh.

 

[The Prisoner]

A few helpful replies telling me I should put up with the 10 minute walk at Warrington with a load of luggage and be grateful that the railway will even carry me in times of disruption.

My what a customer focused group you are!

Ended up paying for Scotrail Edinburgh to Glasgow and jumping on the shuttle to Carlisle with VT 1st Advances. Other half gets travel sick on coaches, so 2.5 hours of that simply wasn't an option.

The point I was trying to make seemed to get lost among the pedants. It was that there should be a far more integrated approach to major disruption. Ticket acceptance, advice given and interpretation of "the rules" has changed by the hour, and differs even among staff from the same companies

ATOC do provide framework and guidance under a doc called PIDD (Passenger Information During Disruption) http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/ACOP015v3%20-%20PIDD%20(2).pdf When I tweeted Virgin Trains a rail employee insisted under the terms of this I should be allowed to travel back the way I came. I didn't fancy arguing as VT had insisted that acceptance via York had gone - end of. Had never heard of the document, and haven't read it cover to cover, but it appears that there should at least have been contingency in place for this to happen?

 

[najaB]

A few helpful replies telling me I should put up with the 10 minute walk at Warrington with a load of luggage and be grateful that the railway will even carry me in times of disruption.

My what a customer focused group you are!

To put it bluntly: you are one out of tens of thousands of customers who are affected by a very major incident. They would've managed to get you back to the town you needed to be in. If I'm not mistaken tickets for Warrington used to be marked as "WARRINGTON CEN/BANK Q" or similar, so they would have gotten you to the destination on your ticket.

Complaining that you would have been 500m or so away from your car comes across as self-absorbed whining.

 

[The Prisoner]

To put it bluntly: you are one out of tens of thousands of customers who are affected by a very major incident. They would've managed to get you back to the town you needed to be in. If I'm not mistaken tickets for Warrington used to be marked as "WARRINGTON CEN/BANK Q" or similar, so they would have gotten you to the destination on your ticket.

Complaining that you would have been 500m or so away from your car comes across as self-absorbed whining.

Thank you for proving my point. I trust that you are never let near any situation requiring diplomacy and/or intelligence.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thank you for proving my point. I trust that you are never let near any situation requiring diplomacy and/or intelligence.

Thinking laterally, you might consider changing at Piccadilly/Oxford Road on the way back and catch the ATW service to Warrington BQ.