Storm Frank: impact on West Coast and Highland Mainlines

[BRX]

Other half gets travel sick on coaches,

This is me too, and one of the reasons I'm unhappy about being forced to use a bus replacement, and the seemingly increasing prevalence of bustitution instead of diverted trains.

In some situations I realise that diverting services just isn't practical but in these cases, where it's possible, I think it should always be the case that passengers can have the option of taking an alternative (possibly significantly longer) route by rail instead of having to take a bus. This should apply regardless of what kind of ticket you've got.

Would be interesting to know for what proportion of the travelling public motion sickness is a problem.

 

[Blindtraveler]

A few helpful replies telling me I should put up with the 10 minute walk at Warrington with a load of luggage and be grateful that the railway will even carry me in times of disruption.

My what a customer focused group you are!

Ended up paying for Scotrail Edinburgh to Glasgow and jumping on the shuttle to Carlisle with VT 1st Advances. Other half gets travel sick on coaches, so 2.5 hours of that simply wasn't an option.

The point I was trying to make seemed to get lost among the pedants. It was that there should be a far more integrated approach to major disruption. Ticket acceptance, advice given and interpretation of "the rules" has changed by the hour, and differs even among staff from the same companies

ATOC do provide framework and guidance under a doc called PIDD (Passenger Information During Disruption) http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/ACOP015v3%20-%20PIDD%20(2).pdf When I tweeted Virgin Trains a rail employee insisted under the terms of this I should be allowed to travel back the way I came. I didn't fancy arguing as VT had insisted that acceptance via York had gone - end of. Had never heard of the document, and haven't read it cover to cover, but it appears that there should at least have been contingency in place for this to happen?

Whilst not affected in the same way as such I was also mucked around by the constantly changing acceptance and bus arrangements, not helped by the fact my Wife had her guide dog with her and this made particularly our journey North very long and tiring so I can sympathise and think lessons can be learned here.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is me too, and one of the reasons I'm unhappy about being forced to use a bus replacement, and the seemingly increasing prevalence of bustitution instead of diverted trains.

There's less bustitution than there ever used to be.

VTWC are diverting trains via Dumfries and Kilmarnock to Glasgow.

However there is no suitable diversion route between Carlisle and Edinburgh. The Tyne Valley Line is also closed due to a significant landslip near Stocksfield, and is likely to be closed for several months. The use of a bus is unavoidable in this situation.

ATOC do provide framework and guidance under a doc called PIDD (Passenger Information During Disruption)

This applies during short-term disruption. When an emergency timetable is implemented and is running, this does not count as disruption under the circumstances.

XC and VTEC get no money for carrying VTWC/TPE passengers, and carrying those passengers was causing severe overcrowding and inconvenience to passengers who had given them money.

I agree some of the communication is poor, but I don't agree that ending the ticket acceptance is wrong. If using the train via York is important you can upgrade your advance to an any permitted ticket that would allow you to travel that way.

The angry response at having to make your own way from Bank Quay to Central- a distance of, what, half a mile- is ridiculous. Be grateful they're able to get you back to Warrington mostly by train. Complain and you might get a taxi refund.

 

[BRX]

There's less bustitution than there ever used to be.

Is there? Is this something that's been measured over the years?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As it's VT, complain and you will get £45 of RTVs without them reading your letter

FWIW they told me Delay Repay is applicable for tickets bought before the emergency timetable was announced.

 

[najaB]

Thank you for proving my point. I trust that you are never let near any situation requiring diplomacy and/or intelligence.

I am, every day, at work thank you very much. What you seem not to appreciate is that you had a contract with the railway to get you from Edinburgh to Warrington, and they got you from Edinburgh to Warrington - therein ends their responsibility. How about giving some credit to the men and women of the railway who have had to work long hours in thankless conditions as a result of this flooding to get thousands of people home rather than leaving them stranded, and consider the thousands of people whose homes and livelihoods have been completely destroyed and compare that to the sheer horror of having to walk 1.2km - or, as you did, using a little initiative to find your own route that didn't require walking.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Edit: And before anyone says "Easy for you to say, you've never been in that situation", the last time it happened to me the railway left me 86km away from my destination station. Instead of complaining, I got the megabus the rest of the way.

 

[misterredmist]

A few helpful replies telling me I should put up with the 10 minute walk at Warrington with a load of luggage and be grateful that the railway will even carry me in times of disruption.

My what a customer focused group you are!

. I didn't fancy arguing as VT had insisted that acceptance via York had gone - end of. Had never heard of the document, and haven't read it cover to cover, but it appears that there should at least have been contingency in place for this to happen?

In times and conditions such as these, I reckon a ten minute walk would concern very few people, if it's too much, get a bus or a cab..... expecting everything in a weather affected situation to be run for your own personal benefit is rather inconsiderate and a little detached from reality.

As for the "via York" situation, well, if that's what you need, cough up.

No organisation can cover contingencies for every dynamic scenario that affects the railways and their infrastructure - a little understanding may stand you in good stead....

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is there? Is this something that's been measured over the years?

I don't know if it is measured or not, but it feels like there's a greater willingness to divert rather than bustitute during planned engineering works.

This month the ECML is closed Darlington-Newcastle. I know 10-15 years ago GNER bustituted everyone, but now they divert some trains down the Durham Coast. It's the same with diverting via Carlisle. It's the same with VTWC diverting via the Chiltern main line, and when FGW diverted trains into Waterloo and via Banbury and the Chiltern main line when Reading-Acton was closed. Even TPE took the step of extending their Newcastle trains to Edinburgh during the Chorley blockade.

 

[BRX]

To me one thing this situation underlines is the pointlessness of branded franchises.

There must have been many passengers who'd think that the fact that both west and east coast services are operated by the "same" company (a reasonable assumption if they're both branded as Virgin trains) would mean there wouldn't be a big problem using tickets from one on the other's trains, in the circumstances. At least, less of a deal than previously.

But it appears that the two companies seem to have little motivation to co-operate in reality (where despite the branding being the same, ownership is different).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't know if it is measured or not, but it feels like there's a greater willingness to divert rather than bustitute during planned engineering works.

This month the ECML is closed Darlington-Newcastle. I know 10-15 years ago GNER bustituted everyone, but now they divert some trains down the Durham Coast. It's the same with diverting via Carlisle. It's the same with VTWC diverting via the Chiltern main line, and when FGW diverted trains into Waterloo and via Banbury and the Chiltern main line when Reading-Acton was closed. Even TPE took the step of extending their Newcastle trains to Edinburgh during the Chorley blockade.

I may well be wrong in my feeling that it's become more common to bustitute. It would be interesting to know what the reality is.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the bustitution on the Highland Main Line during the recent closure seemed a bit excessive (ie, bus all the way from Perth to Inverness - a good two hours or so) rather than just between Perth and Pitlochry.

That does make a difference to anyone who has problems with motion sickness. I would be ok with a 20 minutes bus connection but am a bit wary of longer ones.

Of course in that instance tickets were being accepted by Aberdeen instead, so it was still possible to get around the closure without needing to get on a bus. So if there were good reasons not to run trains from Pitlochry then perhaps the decision was a fair one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the tendency to run "long" bustitutions is because (a) people don't like changing, and (b) changes introduce risk.

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't know if it is measured or not, but it feels like there's a greater willingness to divert rather than bustitute during planned engineering works.

This month the ECML is closed Darlington-Newcastle. I know 10-15 years ago GNER bustituted everyone, but now they divert some trains down the Durham Coast. It's the same with diverting via Carlisle. It's the same with VTWC diverting via the Chiltern main line, and when FGW diverted trains into Waterloo and via Banbury and the Chiltern main line when Reading-Acton was closed. Even TPE took the step of extending their Newcastle trains to Edinburgh during the Chorley blockade.

In the old Central Days. even if only a little bit in the middle was closed for Engineering Work, they would just bus throughout.

 

[D1009]

In the old Central Days. even if only a little bit in the middle was closed for Engineering Work, they would just bus throughout.

Could you be a little clearer on where exactly you mean?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Financially, I should think Network Rail is paying for this disruption.
They will reimburse the TOCs for not being able to meet the contracted spec (capacity, journey times).
So I presume the direct costs (buses, diversions via G&SW etc) will be met.
Presumably only VTWC and FTPE will be compensated, and not the ECML operators, which is where the trouble starts.
Then we have the secondary disruption to VTEC/XC in particular whose services are flooded with unwanted WCML passengers.
Plus nobody has any stock to run additional services (assuming there are paths), and we have the usual "crew don't sign" constraints.
But it must be obvious that the competition (road or air) do not suffer from these problems, with alternative routeings being readily available.
A breach in the M74 would not be anything like so traumatic, except to towns on the diversions.

 

[QueensCurve]

To me one thing this situation underlines is the pointlessness of branded franchises.

There must have been many passengers who'd think that the fact that both west and east coast services are operated by the "same" company (a reasonable assumption if they're both branded as Virgin trains) would mean there wouldn't be a big problem using tickets from one on the other's trains, in the circumstances. At least, less of a deal than previously.

But it appears that the two companies seem to have little motivation to co-operate in reality (where despite the branding being the same, ownership is different).

While I find it difficult to argue that privatisation has been bad for the railway overall, this is one way in which the present structure serves the travelling public less well than when all the trains were run by the same company.

Is it beyond the wit of ATOC to come up with a solution to this?

 

[PHILIPE]

Could you be a little clearer on where exactly you mean?

As far as Liverpool to Norwich when route closed between Sheffield and Manchester. I may be wrong but it was a few years ago now.

 

[D1009]

As far as Liverpool to Norwich when route closed between Sheffield and Manchester. I may be wrong but it was a few years ago now.

I can remember the diversion of a train between Sheffield and Manchester via Barnsley and the Calder Valley one Sunday morning, reversing at Wakefield Kirkgate, but I can't remember who operated it. It was in the late 90s or early 2000s.

 

[The Prisoner]

While I find it difficult to argue that privatisation has been bad for the railway overall, this is one way in which the present structure serves the travelling public less well than when all the trains were run by the same company.

Is it beyond the wit of ATOC to come up with a solution to this?

This was my earlier point. Maybe you put it better than I did. There were people far far far more inconvenienced than me. ATOC seems to allow co-operation to be optional in times of disruption but surely there must be a contingency to amend the Rail Settlement Plan to make co-operation both non-negotiable and (to some extent) rewarding during disruption of this nature?

At the end of the day these are customers, and if we go around accepting what we know are flawed & ever changing solutions they won't be customers for long. I did cough up the extra for taxis and the likes today and won't claim it back as I know what they are up against - but how many people would just put up with the constantly changing advice and lack of co-op and think "never traveling by train again"?

 

[BRX]

I'd welcome the network being presented to the passenger as one "brand". Whether renationalised or not and regardless of which or how many companies were actually operating the trains.

This is effectively how London Transport operates. Lots of different private bus operators but the buses all look the same to the passenger. If something goes wrong the information all comes from TfL, not from the private operators.

Would also save us from constrant repainting and rebranding of everything.

If it could be combined with a "simplification" of the fare structure that actually changed anything, that would be even better.

 

[Zoidberg]

I'd welcome the network being presented to the passenger as one "brand". Whether renationalised or not and regardless of which or how many companies were actually operating the trains.

This is effectively how London Transport operates. Lots of different private bus operators but the buses all look the same to the passenger. If something goes wrong the information all comes from TfL, not from the private operators.

Would also save us from constrant repainting and rebranding of everything.

If it could be combined with a "simplification" of the fare structure that actually changed anything, that would be even better.

Common sense being spoken.

Nothing to see here, move along now.

 

[yorksrob]

If Virgin and Stagecoach decide to brand the EC and WC the same, then don't work together during disruption, it just makes them look like incompetents to the public. Not that that makes any difference to the DfT as they can obviously do no wrong in their eyes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Virgin and Stagecoach decide to brand the EC and WC the same, then don't work together during disruption, it just makes them look like incompetents to the public. Not that that makes any difference to the DfT as they can obviously do no wrong in their eyes.

I do think the way things are going they will regret not just branding it as East Coast Trains (which from an ownership perspective it is closer to).

I have no beef with Stagecoach, indeed I think they are good at train operations - but branding the two together and running them separately with different policies isn't going to end well.

 

[QueensCurve]

I'd welcome the network being presented to the passenger as one "brand". Whether renationalised or not and regardless of which or how many companies were actually operating the trains.

This is effectively how London Transport operates. Lots of different private bus operators but the buses all look the same to the passenger. If something goes wrong the information all comes from TfL, not from the private operators.

Would also save us from constrant repainting and rebranding of everything.

If it could be combined with a "simplification" of the fare structure that actually changed anything, that would be even better.

I think Chris Green said something similar when he set up Notwork Southeast.

 

[najaB]

Anything more on the rumours that Lamington will take longer to fix than originally estimated?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Chris Green said something similar when he set up Notwork Southeast.

And ScotRail. OK, it's only one company, but the brand (and very good it looks too) is consistent from one franchise to the next.

 

[Tetchytyke]

ATOC seems to allow co-operation to be optional in times of disruption but surely there must be a contingency to amend the Rail Settlement Plan to make co-operation both non-negotiable and (to some extent) rewarding during disruption of this nature?

It comes down to definitions of "disruption". If there is an emergency timetable in place then, unless that timetable goes to pot, there is no disruption.

This is not a new or unusual experience. Last year when the Chiltern main line was blocked VTWC and LM did not accept Chiltern tickets once the emergency timetable was put in place. I think that is entirely reasonable.

The main issue is for the holders of Advance tickets, and there's no way that revenue can be re-distributed.

 

[QueensCurve]

Interestingly, the Dearstalker Expreß is now being diverted via the G&SW.

https://t.co/y9pd2KN1V6

 

[Chrism20]

Anything more on the rumours that Lamington will take longer to fix than originally estimated?

I've no information on how it's going but I passed Lamington on the way back from Preston at about 2pm this afternoon.

There were six of those big cement mixer trucks in the compound next to the viaduct and I passed another two from the same company heading towards Lamington whilst I was on the way towards Edinburgh. I assume they are still shoring it up.

There is a lot of running water and puddles etc along the road in the surrounding area and quite a few potholes are starting to appear. I wouldn't be surprised if it needs remedial work shortly, hopefully it can wait until all the viaduct works is complete.

Passed five or six RRBs heading towards Lockerbie, I assume these were for the 1212 departure from Edinburgh as they had First group logos on the front. Going by the time I saw them it's taking around 90 minutes from Waverley to Abington which isn't too bad.

 

[marks87]

There is a lot of running water and puddles etc along the road in the surrounding area and quite a few potholes are starting to appear.

It's like that everywhere. The road outside my house is like the surface of the moon.

Without being funny, can "potholes" occur on the railways as well? For anyone who doesn't know, a pothole is caused by frozen precipitation causing a hole under the surface when it melts; the hole then caves in.

Presumably a similar phenomenon can occur underneath track?

 

[Chrism20]

It's like that everywhere. The road outside my house is like the surface of the moon.

Yeah, sorry what I should have written was the stretch roughly three to four miles either side of the viaduct is the worst part of the road between Abington & Edinburgh. For an A road it's pretty poor and it's probably going to need more than patching if it's left much longer.

Back on topic though I'm not sure how it will affect the railway but water expands so I'm guessing it will have some effect. Someone more technically minded would be able to answer.

 

[Gadget88]

Seemingly Virgin east coast won't be taking anymore TP tickets was able to travel down been told it changed now and it's bus only via Carlisle.

Got told on route to York it's been changed.

I can see many going this route to Manchester seeking a refund if possible rather than travel I wish I had now.