Th 21/10/21 IET hits PW Trolley left on line near Challow

[JonathanH]

Two? I'm only aware of one... just to be clear, are we talking about the incident involving 800 301 in this thread, or was that something separate?

A tree incident on Wednesday also put a different IET out of action with front end damage.

 

[High Dyke]

Assumption, due to myself also working on the railway, in a different engineering environment, so I'm fully aware of the amount of safety policies and procedures that exist, therefore I'd be very surprised if there isn't any for on-track engineering.

Fair enough.

 

[david1212]

Regardless of all the modern h-tech systems it seems two low tech ones are not generally used -

- count them out and count them back

- a physical inspection of all tracks, the four foot and the six foot in the possession site to ensure anything left for e.g. next next or next weekend is clear of the tracks and train envelope.

Even if one missed or has an error there would have to be two errors i.e. a double fault for something like this to occur.

 

[DPQ]

Regardless of all the modern h-tech systems it seems two low tech ones are not generally used -

- count them out and count them back

- a physical inspection of all tracks, the four foot and the six foot in the possession site to ensure anything left for e.g. next next or next weekend is clear of the tracks and train envelope.

Even if one missed or has an error there would have to be two errors i.e. a double fault for something like this to occur.

There was an inspection of the track. It was carried out by the GWR 800 driver just before impact.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A tree incident on Wednesday also put a different IET out of action with front end damage.

Thank you; it would be the tree I hadn't heard about.

 

[JonathanH]

Thank you; it would be the tree I hadn't heard about.

More here

TauntonTrains.co.uk

Published on 20th October 2021

GWR Hiatchi IET No.802007 suffered significant damage after hitting a fallen tree in the Cullompton area early on Wednesday 20th October 2021.

No.802007 and No. 802011 'Joshua Reynolds / Capt Robert Falcon Scott ' were operating 1A70 04:51 Plymouth - London Paddington during an early morning freak thunderstorm which was passing over the south west. The fallen tree was struck by the passenger service causing significant damage to the nosecone and side bodywork. The train finally arrived into Taunton at 07:56 over 100 minutes late where the service was terminated. The set then departed empty to Stoke Gifford for assessment.

 

[Dai Corner]

There was an inspection of the track. It was carried out by the GWR 800 driver just before impact.

Isn't a track inspection supposed to be done at a speed that allows the train to stop short of any obstruction it might encounter?

 

[pompeyfan]

As a colleague recently said, surely PW staff would be at the the van scratching their head wondering what that very large gap was in their van where the trolly previously was?

 

[skyhigh]

Isn't a track inspection supposed to be done at a speed that allows the train to stop short of any obstruction it might encounter?

I think that post was a joke (though not a particularly good one if so...)

 

[TSG]

- count them out and count them back

Pretty much what the Line Clear Verification process is.

- a physical inspection of all tracks, the four foot and the six foot in the possession site to ensure anything left for e.g. next next or next weekend is clear of the tracks and train envelope.

A COSS should be doing that for everything involved with their work anyway (regardless of axle counter areas and LCV). Physical inspection by (from memory) the ES(s) is the fallback if the LCV axle counts don’t tally somehow.
Bear in mind that the limits of the possession may extend far (like miles) beyond the limits of the worksite(s). That makes a check through the whole of the possession as a matter of course impractical. Since the nature of any work allowed outside worksites is very limited it shouldn’t be necessary really.
The root cause of this is more likely failure(s) to follow procedures, rather than the absence of procedures

 

[sw1ller]

How long was the possession? Might have some baring on why the line clear verification process wasn’t followed effectively. I know on the wcml they regularly close the full length off between Stafford and Crewe. That’s a hell of a distance to do a check when all you want to do is go home to bed.

 

[david1212]

Pretty much what the Line Clear Verification process is.

A COSS should be doing that for everything involved with their work anyway (regardless of axle counter areas and LCV). Physical inspection by (from memory) the ES(s) is the fallback if the LCV axle counts don’t tally somehow.
Bear in mind that the limits of the possession may extend far (like miles) beyond the limits of the worksite(s). That makes a check through the whole of the possession as a matter of course impractical. Since the nature of any work allowed outside worksites is very limited it shouldn’t be necessary really.
The root cause of this is more likely failure(s) to follow procedures, rather than the absence of procedures

How long was the possession? Might have some baring on why the line clear verification process wasn’t followed effectively. I know on the wcml they regularly close the full length off between Stafford and Crewe. That’s a hell of a distance to do a check when all you want to do is go home to bed.

Poor wording on my part. I was implying a full check of the work site plus say 500m beyond rather than the closed section which indeed could be much longer. Depending on the equipment and vehicles used plus the point of access since items could drop off in transit ideally the section between the worksite and the point of access would be included but realistically not always practical.

 

[SteveM70]

How can something be too light to activate a track circuit, isn't it a simple electric current? Track circuit operating clips are just a bit of metal, after all.

Light vehicles may not make sufficient electrical contact for the low voltage track circuits. Track circuit clips make a point contact and will breakthrough contamination. Lightweight multiple units have track circuit actuators to ensure they operate track circuits reliably.

Going off topic a bit, but that’s why a lot of class 03s back in the day ran round with a match wagon attached

 

[Dai Corner]

Poor wording on my part. I was implying a full check of the work site plus say 500m beyond rather than the closed section which indeed could be much longer. Depending on the equipment and vehicles used plus the point of access since items could drop off in transit ideally the section between the worksite and the point of access would be included but realistically not always practical.

I'd imagine an unattended trolley could roll for miles if the gradient was sufficient.....

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I'd imagine an unattended trolley could roll for miles if the gradient was sufficient.....

No gradient at Challow, it isn’t known as Brunel’s billiard table for nothing!

 

[alxndr]

I'd imagine an unattended trolley could roll for miles if the gradient was sufficient.....

The brakes are applied unless the handle is depressed to disengage them. It's the first thing you should check before use and as soon as you put one on the line.

 

[pdeaves]

No gradient at Challow, it isn’t known as Brunel’s billiard table for nothing!

In the general case, though, trolleys with something wrong with the brakes can roll for a long way (see the Tebay (I think) incident a few years ago).

 

[The Lad]

Going off topic a bit, but that’s why a lot of class 03s back in the day ran round with a match wagon attached

It was more to with gaps between track circuits where the 03 wasn't long enough to work either track circuit

 

[paynecw]

I was on this set along with a few other rail workers. It was not a nice experience- a-because I was travelling home after a night shift and b- the noise(I was in the lead coach) was horrendous and I was not alone in believing we were about to come off the rails. That in addition to watching the same set of horses in a field for the best part of 2½ hours

 

[PG]

I was on this set along with a few other rail workers. It was not a nice experience- a-because I was travelling home after a night shift and b- the noise(I was in the lead coach) was horrendous and I was not alone in believing we were about to come off the rails. That in addition to watching the same set of horses in a field for the best part of 2½ hours

Welcome to the forum
You might wish to contact one of the helpful moderators to see about amending your username as I suspect it is very similar to your own email address and therefore leaves you open to widespread spam etc.

I don't suppose you got a chance to look at the front of the train when you eventually alighted did you?
I'm still wondering if, as has previously been suggested, the PW trolley which was struck was fully on the line or not? i.e. may not have been on the rails but at the track side slightly encroaching the train envelope?

 

[83G/84D]

@Romsey in post #18 has advised its axle counters. Most trolleys won't activate track circuits as they are too light.

They generally do operate track circuits if they have equipment loaded on them.

 

[paynecw]

Welcome to the forum
You might wish to contact one of the helpful moderators to see about amending your username as I suspect it is very similar to your own email address and therefore leaves you open to widespread spam etc.

I don't suppose you got a chance to look at the front of the train when you eventually alighted did you?
I'm still wondering if, as has previously been suggested, the PW trolley which was struck was fully on the line or not? i.e. may not have been on the rails but at the track side slightly encroaching the train envelope?

Thankyou for the welcome. Unfortunately I didn't get to see the damage. I was very tired and didn't think about having a nose. My mind was set on getting home. The noise at the time was definitely that of an object going underneath the set, an opinion later shared by my fellow rail colleagues when we met up in one of the coaches. Finally , I may follow your advice to amend my username, I'm not too IT savvy so not sure how I go about it

 

[Llama]

Going off topic a bit, but that’s why a lot of class 03s back in the day ran round with a match wagon attached

Surely the 03s had accompanying conflat wagons because of their short wheelbase meaning they could more easily 'gap' track circuits and disappear, rather than due to their lack of weight.

 

[td97]

Network Rail safety update and incident summary at

Safety Advice NRA21-16 – Trolley strike at Challow | Safety Central

Some alarming quotes are:
"it [the train] could have been derailed"
and
"[the p-way trolley] was the only one in use by the team that night"

 

[Deepgreen]

PW is short for permanent way, the old term for track.

Not just track itself - ballast and the ground surface (to what depth I'm unsure) are included, for example. It's essentially the formation where the track sits (including the track itself), which is pertinent when equipment is used on and off the rails in situations like this.

 

[pdeaves]

"[the p-way trolley] was the only one in use by the team that night"

That raises questions. You could understand if 100 trolleys were used and one got overlooked; how is it possible to miss the only one during the post-work clear-away?!

 

[TSG]

That raises questions. You could understand if 100 trolleys were used and one got overlooked; how is it possible to miss the only one during the post-work clear-away?!

Counterintuitively, I'm not sure that's as true as you think it should be. If the LCV process is done properly it doesn't matter how many trollies are used. Anything where there is a lot of complexity and risk tends to have strict controls and oversight in place, and people are often more willing to buy into the need for using them. It's the 'it's only a little job, we don't need to bother with all those forms, we'll be done in half hour' attitude that often causes trouble. In the absence of controls it's easy to lose who is accountable, even for a simple job. If the possession was close to overrunning the COSS/PIC may have been on the phone being pestered by the ES for the third time while the gang were loading the van. Fred saw Bob go back through the gate to get his half of the trolley. Bob thought Fred would be moving the other bit of the trolley while he was having a piss in the bushes. And so it goes

 

[alxndr]

Counterintuitively, I'm not sure that's as true as you think it should be. If the LCV process is done properly it doesn't matter how many trollies are used. Anything where there is a lot of complexity and risk tends to have strict controls and oversight in place, and people are often more willing to buy into the need for using them. It's the 'it's only a little job, we don't need to bother with all those forms, we'll be done in half hour' attitude that often causes trouble. In the absence of controls it's easy to lose who is accountable, even for a simple job. If the possession was close to overrunning the COSS/PIC may have been on the phone being pestered by the ES for the third time while the gang were loading the van. Fred saw Bob go back through the gate to get his half of the trolley. Bob thought Fred would be moving the other bit of the trolley while he was having a piss in the bushes. And so it goes

I agree with the majority of the message, but worth pointing out that although it is physically possible for one person to carry a half trolley, it would be unlikely as they're so heavy and bulky. You wouldn't really want to be lifting one in a van on your own if you could wait 20 seconds and have someone help you (and depending on your height/strength and the height of the storage space you might not manage it).

 

[Horizon22]

As suspected, there were processes in place and they weren't accurately followed and communication was likely lacklustre. "Count them all out & count them all back" comes to mind.

 

[TSG]

I agree with the majority of the message, but worth pointing out that although it is physically possible for one person to carry a half trolley, it would be unlikely as they're so heavy and bulky. You wouldn't really want to be lifting one in a van on your own if you could wait 20 seconds and have someone help you (and depending on your height/strength and the height of the storage space you might not manage it).

Even more unlikely I'd be carrying it as you can tell! I'll stick to carrying the Fluke thanks .