Thameslink ‘Core’ major disruption (04/04)

[ChiefPlanner]

I suspect an "industry review" of the incident will hopefully discuss some of the possible ameliorations , as well as the handling of the particular circumstances, including passenger handling issues.

 

[choochoochoo]

that wouldn’t be very helpful when pulling into Farringdon on the AC….




there is, albeit the balise equivalent, at Farringdon. Bear in mind that sometimes you need to do the southbound power change over at City.

I thought the balise only did the auto power changeover. Would it still not be possible to have an APC as belts and braces, if the auto changeover is successful the VCB resets during that process. If it wasn't successful, you'd not be able to take power and realise something was up (most likely your pantograph)

Won't solve the issue at City, but stops it happening at Farringdon. Maybe Siemens can go to the wreckers yard and salvage the 313 dual voltage alarms system !!

 

[zwk500]

Won't solve the issue at City, but stops it happening at Farringdon. Maybe Siemens can go to the wreckers yard and salvage the 313 dual voltage alarms system !!

There haven't been many problems with trains from Farringdon, the issue is usually trains from Smithfield sidings pulling into City TL. So why fix something that isn't the problem whilst leaving the actual problem unsolved?

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it still not be possible to have an APC as belts and braces, if the auto changeover is successful the VCB resets during that process. If it wasn't successful, you'd not be able to take power and realise something was up (most likely your pantograph)

I’m not following the logic, are you saying an APC at City TL Southbound?

That wouldn’t stop a train continuing, as I thought the VCB would only cut the 25kV? Which wouldn’t help in the situation here, where a train on Dc has its pan up.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I suspect an "industry review" of the incident will hopefully discuss some of the possible ameliorations , as well as the handling of the particular circumstances, including passenger handling issues.

Well given its not the first time its happened doesn't appear anything was learned previously.

Anyhow from OTT 9V66 just tipped out at BFR and gone through Northbound as 5V66 so the OLE is clearly not damaged guess that the beauty of the rigid bar.

 

[choochoochoo]

I’m not following the logic, are you saying an APC at City TL Southbound?

That wouldn’t stop a train continuing, as I thought the VCB would only cut the 25kV? Which wouldn’t help in the situation here, where a train on Dc has its pan up.

APC at Farringdon would help but apparently not the major problem.

I only drive 700s on AC so am amazed they don't throw a fit with two power sources, when they throw a tantrum for much less. - But understand APC at city would be useless in this case.

Now I'm wondering if they'd let you drive off the yard with a shore supply cable also attached ?

What I think it does show is that whoever signed off these units didn't do a robust testing of them before entering them in service. Are there any examples where you'd need a pan up at the same time you're drawing DC whilst in motion ?

 

[Tomp94]

What happens with the drivers in situations like this where they forget to put the pantograph down and chaos across the network follows. Nothing? A tea with biscuits meeting with a manager? A refreshment free meeting with a manager? More training?

 

[Class2ldn]

There's no reason why a driver would put the pan up coming out of smithfield, its all dc so no need for it. It can happen if you come in to city from blackfriars and stop and turn back.
Seems an odd one to me if its come out of smithfield.

 

[zwk500]

What I think it does show is that whoever signed off these units didn't do a robust testing of them before entering them in service. Are there any examples where you'd need a pan up at the same time you're drawing DC whilst in motion ?

If you wanted to do a traction change on the fly, as is done by Overground trains on the West London Line.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well given its not the first time its happened doesn't appear anything was learned previously.

Unfortunately time passes - managers etc move on , and so on. One would hope a review and more is carried out.

A very , very expensive and extensive disruption - even post COVID.

 

[zwk500]

Well given its not the first time its happened doesn't appear anything was learned previously.

Anyhow from OTT 9V66 just tipped out at BFR and gone through Northbound as 5V66 so the OLE is clearly not damaged guess that the beauty of the rigid bar.

Several trains worked through in both directions on the northbound line to clear the Core and balance stock or drivers. A line block of both through platforms (with isolation of the 3rd rail) at Blackfriars has now been taken to sort out the damaged pantograph ready to move the unit out of the way.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If you wanted to do a traction change on the fly, as is done by Overground trains on the West London Line.

Go back far enough - pre "Overground" there was an unofficial West London line lost pan "club" - I had 3 313's lose them at VS888 signal (I think) - not to mention EPS* and the odd other operator. The H&C viaduct had a few dings on the brickwork......an expensive business.

 

[Class2ldn]

APC at Farringdon would help but apparently not the major problem.

I only drive 700s on AC so am amazed they don't throw a fit with two power sources, when they throw a tantrum for much less. - But understand APC at city would be useless in this case.

Now I'm wondering if they'd let you drive off the yard with a shore supply cable also attached ?

What I think it does show is that whoever signed off these units didn't do a robust testing of them before entering them in service. Are there any examples where you'd need a pan up at the same time you're drawing DC whilst in motion ?

The trains are not on dual power.
They are either in AC or DC , they don't draw power at the same time

 

[Bald Rick]

Go back far enough - pre "Overground" there was an unofficial West London line lost pan "club" - I had 3 313's lose them at VS888 signal (I think) - not to mention EPS* and the odd other operator. The H&C viaduct had a few dings on the brickwork......an expensive business.

plenty post overground with the 378s too!

 

[choochoochoo]

The trains are not on dual power.
They are either in AC or DC , they don't draw power at the same time

That I get. But why doesn't the train alert the driver that it's got 2 power sources trying to feed the BUS.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Several trains worked through in both directions on the northbound line to clear the Core and balance stock or drivers. A line block of both through platforms (with isolation of the 3rd rail) at Blackfriars has now been taken to sort out the damaged pantograph ready to move the unit out of the way.

Only taken them 5hrs to get to that point. Presumably have to get fitters from somewhere to BFR to remove whats left of the pan.

 

[Class2ldn]

That I get. But why doesn't the train alert the driver that it's got 2 power sources trying to feed the BUS.

Because it doesn't, its not like the 319s, when they come into city or Farringdon they have to switch one off to get into the other, in the cab if you have to do it manually you have to switch the power source you are in off first, if you were to leave it off and not put it into the other mode it would eventually go into load shed as the alternative power source is not available until you select it so its never got 2 sources avaliable at the same time , you have to switch one off to get the other.
Its very rare you'd need to do it manually hence probably why they didn't think it necessary to have an audible reminder of some sort

 

[zwk500]

Only taken them 5hrs to get to that point. Presumably have to get fitters from somewhere to BFR to remove whats left of the pan.

4hrs, Incident happened about 16.20 and last train through before the line block was 20.30.

EDIT: 5V55 has now moved off according to OpenTrainTimes, so there'll be a few checks first and then normal working can resume hopefully within 5.5hrs of incident start.

 

[SynthD]

Can the exit to the sidings have the same balise, or a cowbell that would be hit by a pantograph?

The sidings have four planned movements today, with none in the rest of the week and only one in other Mondays. Why?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Can the exit to the sidings have the same balise, or a cowbell that would be hit by a pantograph?

The sidings have four planned movements today, with none in the rest of the week and only one in other Mondays. Why?

Probably to do with engineering works at the weekend meaning some units needed to be stabled in Smithfield Sidings, which normally I think only one unit stables there instead of 2 or perhaps an adhoc ecs may have been ran today which does sometimes happen.

 

[Supercoss]

time For a simple
"Pan Down" sign to replace the current European symbol "=" style ?

 

[A0wen]

Well its happened twice in the last 12 months and whilst its low probability its impact is very high which is why there should be a robust contingency plan that keeps trains moving to alternative destinations. TLK telling people to use LNWR to MKC for a service to Bedford is just farcical they should be turning the service around at Kentish Town even if it has to be thinned. The railway says its putting the passenger first but it isn't.

Not really - don't forget the Northern Line is part closed at the moment and that's the only way to get from St P to Kentish Town, whereas there are direct links to Euston from both St P and Farringdon.

I assume they were also directing passengers onto GN services to Hatfield / Welwyn GC for St Albans or Harpenden, Stevenage / Hitchin for Luton and Sandy for Bedford?

 

[43066]

Can the exit to the sidings have the same balise, or a cowbell that would be hit by a pantograph?

Had to laugh at the cowbell idea!

time For a simple
"Pan Down" sign to replace the current European symbol "=" style ? View attachment 112527

Trouble is, if someone simply misses it because they’re rushing/not concentrating it won’t help (note: I’m not commenting on what happened today, just that passive systems such as signs will always be subject to the vagaries of human error).

 

[PG]

Had to laugh at the cowbell idea!

+1
Actually daft as it sounds (unintended pun) maybe it might be effective!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They also need to brief the staff better on helping passengers.

There was one gateline bloke at Farringdon this evening who was telling passengers that London Bridge was a ten minute walk away... Possibly Usain Bolt could do it in that time, but the rest of us - no chance...

 

[387star]

Ah explains my southern making extra calls at Ifield and littlehaven. The Southern service had a GX OBS who did not announce the short platform at Ifield so passengers missed their stop anyway. Really comes across as a cowboy outfit sometimes.

This pan thing has happened a few times and smithfield siding being DC is asking for trouble! Easy for a driver to get stressed in the core as every second counts down there when resolving faults!

 

[londontransit]

Just did a write up on the pan-demotion that ensued in Black Friars Lane! That was at least £13,000 down the pan, smashing pantographs to bits ain't cheap, not to mention the fall out from the incident which must have been extremely costly.

Thameslink overextends itself

Who needs train pantographs especially when one is south of the River Thames? Exactly! It’s the reason for having BIG warning signs at Farringdon pleading that drivers check to see they’ve retracted their pantographs in order to enjoy the delights of the substantial 3rd rail system – the world’s largest such network which is largely peculiar to those counties in the south of England. If the pans aren’t down, well that’s how a pandemonium begins! Thameslink had one on the 4th of April 2022 when train 5V55 the 16.10 ex Smithfield opted for a trip southward with its pans up!

 

[westcoaster]

That I get. But why doesn't the train alert the driver that it's got 2 power sources trying to feed the BUS.

Because that is not possible, you are either in AC mode or DC mode.

time For a simple
"Pan Down" sign to replace the current European symbol "=" style ? View attachment 112527

Or the same instructions to leave the siding as it is to enter it.

 

[nap666]

+1
Actually daft as it sounds (unintended pun) maybe it might be effective!

How about the equivalent of the highways height sensor, that lights a flashing red signal if the pantograph breaks the beam. Cheap but effective

 

[Bikeman78]

Well its happened twice in the last 12 months and whilst its low probability its impact is very high which is why there should be a robust contingency plan that keeps trains moving to alternative destinations. TLK telling people to use LNWR to MKC for a service to Bedford is just farcical they should be turning the service around at Kentish Town even if it has to be thinned. The railway says its putting the passenger first but it isn't.

They put in Redhill to Horsham shuttles which worked well for the first two hours but then fell apart and didn't recover through to end of service. Hopefully the Bognor trains stopped additionally although that's hit and miss in my experience. I'd never risk waiting at Littlehaven during disruption.