Thameslink and Southern timetable reduction from 26th July 2021

[Bald Rick]

Yes - saw yesterday that a St Albans stopper was whooshed because of a ~14 minute delay.

Indeed it was - and Mrs BR benefitted from that!

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes - saw yesterday that a St Albans stopper was whooshed because of a ~14 minute delay.

Meanwhile, this is the scene at London Bridge right now with people trying to cram on (unsuccessfully) to an (8 car) Brighton fast.

Ouch. Have they got spare 12 cars sitting around? I know the Sutton loop is only eight car but what about Gatwick to Bedford? If there are spare 12 cars then it would make sense to replace any eight cars on Bedford or Cambridge to Brighton trains.

 

[Timmyd]

Ouch. Have they got spare 12 cars sitting around? I know the Sutton loop is only eight car but what about Gatwick to Bedford? If there are spare 12 cars then it would make sense to replace any eight cars on Bedford or Cambridge to Brighton trains.

The crowding on my Suttons in recent days has led me to switch to bus+tube in the mornings, which is a bit ironic. Has felt genuinely uncomfortable at times. I had two trains skipping my stop after 45 minute gaps in the past week, but even without that, peak trains after the scheduled 45 minute gap are (unsurprisingly) very busy now.

On an even more depressing note, NRE seems to show the cancellations running through to September now, which rather puts the lie to this appalling company’s insistence that it is reviewing them weekly.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Took a stroll St Albans to Harpenden and trained it back (as one does) - mid afternoon at circa 1600 and amazed how busy the train was for one short local journey.

 

[Hadders]

Took a stroll St Albans to Harpenden and trained it back (as one does) - mid afternoon at circa 1600 and amazed how busy the train was for one short local journey.

Things definitely seem busier this week. Travelled on the 07:51 from Stevenage to King's Cross this morning (one of the peak extras). Shock horror - had to sit next to another passenger, first time that's happened since all this started!

 

[Richardr]

I was looking at the trains north from London to Arlesey this morning, and it looks like there are all sorts of cancellations - leaving a gap of two and a half hours after the train arriving just before 11am.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Any whispers/rumours/inside information about when the full timetable might be reinstated? From August 16th (?) there is no longer a need to isolate if fully vaccinated. I would imagine most train crew are fully vaccinated, so - is there any reason why the full timetable can't start again on that date?

 

[Bald Rick]

Any whispers/rumours/inside information about when the full timetable might be reinstated? From August 16th (?) there is no longer a need to isolate if fully vaccinated. I would imagine most train crew are fully vaccinated, so - is there any reason why the full timetable can't start again on that date?

Depends what you mean by ‘full timetable’. If you mean the timetable originally advertised to run in this period, my guess is September. If you mean the pre covid timetable, my guess is never.

 

[Bishopstone]

I was looking at the trains north from London to Arlesey this morning, and it looks like there are all sorts of cancellations - leaving a gap of two and a half hours after the train arriving just before 11am.

Yes, to understand the worst of the current service it’s instructive to check the live departure boards for Arlesey in the north, and Salfords or Littlehaven in the south, all of which made for grim reading earlier this afternoon.

I had my first central London client meeting since lockdown today, and was delayed on the return by ‘Not Enough Staff’ creating a 20-minute gap in fast London Bridge to East Croydon trains. In addition to the planned Bedford-Gatwick cancellations, multiple Peterborough-Horsham and Cambridge-Brighton services had been scrubbed, with only the Bedfords running well.

It’s like deja vu all over again.

 

[riceuten]

And we were told passengers would never come back…

That wasn't exactly a typical day

 

[JonathanH]

In addition to the planned Bedford-Gatwick cancellations, multiple Peterborough-Horsham and Cambridge-Brighton services had been scrubbed, with only the Bedfords running well.

That stands to reason - if Bedford to Gatwick is cancelled then Bedford to Brighton really should be running well.

The issue would appear to be that one of the east coast routes should be subject to planned cancellations as well to enable the other to run well but that is a more complicated amendment to implement and the routes can't easily be cross covered.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, to understand the worst of the current service it’s instructive to check the live departure boards for Arlesey in the north, and Salfords or Littlehaven in the south, all of which made for grim reading earlier this afternoon.

I had my first central London client meeting since lockdown today, and was delayed on the return by ‘Not Enough Staff’ creating a 20-minute gap in fast London Bridge to East Croydon trains. In addition to the planned Bedford-Gatwick cancellations, multiple Peterborough-Horsham and Cambridge-Brighton services had been scrubbed, with only the Bedfords running well.

It’s like deja vu all over again.

Indeed been a shambles today with numerous cancellations on the Horsham-Peterboroughs all day although have been substitute stops using 9T's at the 9R stations but you can only find out whats happening by looking at Tiger Rail as no information on Thameslink website. Can't see with the (r's cancelled outright and third week into this Thameslink still can't resource the Horshams. Something doesn't add up when other operators like GA and SE don't have any issues at all. Govia receive the biggest subsidy under the EMA's so I do hope someone in D of T is leaning on them to get on top of this before September and that GTR are required to update at least weekly what is happening.

 

[bramling]

Things definitely seem busier this week. Travelled on the 07:51 from Stevenage to King's Cross this morning (one of the peak extras). Shock horror - had to sit next to another passenger, first time that's happened since all this started!

So the 365s are needed after all?!

 

[Aictos]

So the 365s are needed after all?!

Not really as they just use the GatEx Class 387s for those services as most driver depots sign Class 387s whereas some driver depots probably have had their Class 365 knowledge expire.

 

[southern442]

If you mean the pre covid timetable, my guess is never.

That's quite a dramatic thing to say. Several infrastructure upgrades are already being discussed for ramping up suburban frequencies, just as an example - albeit we won't see any of these for at least another 10 years, but that certainly isn't never.

 

[bramling]

Not really as they just use the GatEx Class 387s for those services as most driver depots sign Class 387s whereas some driver depots probably have had their Class 365 knowledge expire.

The question is whether there are enough red 387s to reinstate the full number of peak extras planned for the original May 2020 timetable, should demand come back quicker than expected.

 

[Bikeman78]

The question is whether there are enough red 387s to reinstate the full number of peak extras planned for the original May 2020 timetable, should demand come back quicker than expected.

I heard a rumour that the 379s will move to King's Cross at some point. I agree that having a fleet of 40 class 365s sitting around is daft. I can't even remember why they were withdrawn. Possibly a bit off topic for this thread.

 

[bramling]

I heard a rumour that the 379s will move to King's Cross at some point. I agree that having a fleet of 40 class 365s sitting around is daft. I can't even remember why they were withdrawn. Possibly a bit off topic for this thread.

They were essentially withdrawn thanks to a combination of
1) the services they run having been largely deleted from the Covid timetables
2) the collapse in Gatwick traffic causing 387/2s to be less utilised than pre Covid - and possibly the Gatwick rebuilding being a factor too?
3) to curry favour with the DfT by reducing the number of trains needing to be leased
4) the 365s are slightly less flexible, lacking features like bodyside cameras and SDO, though this wasn’t an issue on the services worked.

Obviously the first two of these factors are somewhat transient and unknown, however it would prove difficult to reinstate the full May 20 timetable now due to the driver shortage, so using the 387/2s as a short-term measure on those peak extras still running isn’t such a bad plan, but it will come unstuck if demand recovers quickly.

 

[Bikeman78]

They were essentially withdrawn thanks to a combination of
1) the services they run having been largely deleted from the Covid timetables
2) the collapse in Gatwick traffic causing 387/2s to be less utilised than pre Covid - and possibly the Gatwick rebuilding being a factor too?
3) to curry favour with the DfT by reducing the number of trains needing to be leased
4) the 365s are slightly less flexible, lacking features like bodyside cameras and SDO, though this wasn’t an issue on the services worked.

Obviously the first two of these factors are somewhat transient and unknown, however it would prove difficult to reinstate the full May 20 timetable now due to the driver shortage, so using the 387/2s as a short-term measure on those peak extras still running isn’t such a bad plan, but it will come unstuck if demand recovers quickly.

I meant why didn't they keep all 40 and carry on running to King's Lynn etc? They would possibly have needed a few 387s to run peak trains to Peterborough. It seems odd to bin a fleet of recently overhauled 25 year old trains. There was talk of them running out of Paddington but that plan was binned years ago.

 

[Ianno87]

I meant why didn't they keep all 40 and carry on running to King's Lynn etc? They would possibly have needed a few 387s to run peak trains to Peterborough. It seems odd to bin a fleet of recently overhauled 25 year old trains. There was talk of them running out of Paddington but that plan was binned years ago.

There is a question also about how soon 12-car operation of the Ely/King's Lynn fasts will be needed again. Currently, 8-cars is reasonably generous, especially for weekday demand.

 

[bramling]

I meant why didn't they keep all 40 and carry on running to King's Lynn etc? They would possibly have needed a few 387s to run peak trains to Peterborough. It seems odd to bin a fleet of recently overhauled 25 year old trains. There was talk of them running out of Paddington but that plan was binned years ago.

That is actually quite an interesting question, but the answer is likely to be that pre-Covid there were something like 26x 387 diagrams on a weekday (or maybe 27 I forget). Add in the 17x365 diagrams and it makes 43x diagrams, so there wouldn't quite have been enough 365s, and I don't think you could quite have squeezed enough efficiency out of a common fleet to have made it work. In theory this could have been topped up with a very small handful of 700/0 workings, however this fleet is itself stretched so you could only do that by releasing a few of those units from elsewhere.

Again in theory you *could* put all 40x 365 back on GN and top up with a very small number of something else, however there would now be multiple issues caused by doing that
* SDO north of Royston
* Lack of DOO monitors north of Royston
* Possibly some element of backlash from user groups, specifically the vociferous Fen Line one, about older trains

As a long-term plan they could certainly have chosen to do things this way, and plan the infrastructure work around it. Indeed proper platform lengthening would have been superior to SDO. However they didn't choose to do it this way, perhaps because of the plan to use 365s on GWR. Also likewise the original plan to use 377/5s.

Bringing things slightly more on-topic, *were* the reduction in peak requirements permanent enough to allow a reduction of about 6x peak diagrams, yes the 40x 365 fleet would match perfectly to GN's needs, subject to the above infrastructure issues. However you'd be needing to fit bodyside cameras, and find a solution for Littleport and Watlington short platforms.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Earlswood and Salfords further changed this week with a Gatwick Apt to Redhill shuttle operated by TLK on top of the Crawley (Horsham) - Peterborough service which provides lousy connections at Redhill. Hopefully only for this week whilst Horsham blockade on but was no advanced warning until it was posted on website.

 

[JonathanH]

provides lousy connections at Redhill

My guess is that they are short of places where they can reverse a Thameslink unit other than in the timeslot they have come up with. Unfortunate, yes, but trains already in the timetable take precedence.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

That is actually quite an interesting question, but the answer is likely to be that pre-Covid there were something like 26x 387 diagrams on a weekday (or maybe 27 I forget). Add in the 17x365 diagrams and it makes 43x diagrams, so there wouldn't quite have been enough 365s, and I don't think you could quite have squeezed enough efficiency out of a common fleet to have made it work. In theory this could have been topped up with a very small handful of 700/0 workings, however this fleet is itself stretched so you could only do that by releasing a few of those units from elsewhere.

Again in theory you *could* put all 40x 365 back on GN and top up with a very small number of something else, however there would now be multiple issues caused by doing that
* SDO north of Royston
* Lack of DOO monitors north of Royston
* Possibly some element of backlash from user groups, specifically the vociferous Fen Line one, about older trains

As a long-term plan they could certainly have chosen to do things this way, and plan the infrastructure work around it. Indeed proper platform lengthening would have been superior to SDO. However they didn't choose to do it this way, perhaps because of the plan to use 365s on GWR. Also likewise the original plan to use 377/5s.

Bringing things slightly more on-topic, *were* the reduction in peak requirements permanent enough to allow a reduction of about 6x peak diagrams, yes the 40x 365 fleet would match perfectly to GN's needs, subject to the above infrastructure issues. However you'd be needing to fit bodyside cameras, and find a solution for Littleport and Watlington short platforms.

Wasn't some of the reasoning for using 387s on the GN because of their 110 mph capability and that they are easier to have ERTMS installed than older units, such as the 365s?

As for the Fen Line Users Assoc. I guess that GTR had grief from them the moment GA put 379 units on their peak hour Kings Lynn services.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Any whispers/rumours/inside information about when the full timetable might be reinstated? From August 16th (?) there is no longer a need to isolate if fully vaccinated. I would imagine most train crew are fully vaccinated, so - is there any reason why the full timetable can't start again on that date?

I'd be interested in that, in particular the restoration of the Kentish Town/ Orpington service that was cut much earlier in the year than the current changes. The Bromley South lines have both been running at 50% for most of the year (South Eastern having axed the Bromley South Stoppers)

 

[Bikeman78]

Earlswood and Salfords further changed this week with a Gatwick Apt to Redhill shuttle operated by TLK on top of the Crawley (Horsham) - Peterborough service which provides lousy connections at Redhill. Hopefully only for this week whilst Horsham blockade on but was no advanced warning until it was posted on website.

Not cross platform in either direction either. Have to go from platform 2 to 0 or 3 to 2. I wonder what is the minimum turn round time for a 12 car? With an extra stop at Earlswood or Salfords they would typically have eight minutes at Crawley.

I wonder what will happen if there is a Thameslink meltdown this week. Hopefully the buses from Horsham will extend to Three Bridges rather than dump everyone at Crawley.

 

[Bishopstone]

‘Why aren’t people buying £4k season tickets and going back to City offices?’ etc.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Not cross platform in either direction either. Have to go from platform 2 to 0 or 3 to 2. I wonder what is the minimum turn round time for a 12 car? With an extra stop at Earlswood or Salfords they would typically have eight minutes at Crawley.

I wonder what will happen if there is a Thameslink meltdown this week. Hopefully the buses from Horsham will extend to Three Bridges rather than dump everyone at Crawley.

10 minutes is the minimum turnaround time for a 12 car 700.

6 minutes for a 12 car Southern 377.

 

[bramling]

Ouch. Have they got spare 12 cars sitting around? I know the Sutton loop is only eight car but what about Gatwick to Bedford? If there are spare 12 cars then it would make sense to replace any eight cars on Bedford or Cambridge to Brighton trains.

Yes there should be some spare 700/1s. I think the May timetable was something like 43 out of 55 in use, and that's before the trimmings. However stabling is likely to be an issue, there's only so many places where the 700/1s can stable. Bedford in particular is a problem as it's only Jowett Sidings plus the Wash Road which can take a 12-car. So unfortunately it isn't simply a case of dropping a 12-car onto an 8-car diagram.

AFAICR there are now no 8-cars booked to work anything from the core through to the GN side, there used to be one 700/0 to Peterborough on Saturday evening / Sunday morning but can't remember if this still happens. Otherwise GN is solid 12-car, though of course 700/0s do appear as substitutes.

The whole Thameslink operation is extremely complex to plan, not helped by most of the 700/0 routes not going near either of the two depots (Cambridge to Maidstone and Welwyn to Sevenoaks would have eased this slightly). So for the time being I think there's no avoiding some element of 700/0 on longer distance services in order to get them where they need to be maintained.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

AWC restoring more services from yesterday yet TLk struggle on a daily basis to resource even the reduced timetable whilst other LSE operators have taken no action to adjust there current timetables. No mention of when they see getting back to the May timetable or even a mention of the disruption they are causing which I get isn't directly in there control but a bit of communication wouldn't go amiss.