Train drivers overpaid?

[43066]

Sorry to soak your bonfire, automation is inevitable, it's just a matter of time, the attraction of reducing the wage bill is too tempting.

Sorry to soak your bonfire… Automation in any meaningful sense on the railway is several decades away... Simply because the wage bill is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost. In 2022 I still sign a route with Victorian semaphore signals.

Automation will eventually be an issue in many sectors. I’m not sure that train driving is anymore vulnerable than the next.

 

[DM1994]

I think just the basic comparison of things like speed, weight, knowledge etc is enough to justify this. A bus is what? 20t? You could be a freight driver with a loco pulling 1500t. Doing 70mph in the middle of nowhere in all weathers or doing 30mph around town when you can stop in seconds.
Bus drivers probably as previously mentioned do deserve more pay and respect but I wouldn't try and say a train driver is overpaid in comparison.

 

[Stigy]

I think just the basic comparison of things like speed, weight, knowledge etc is enough to justify this. A bus is what? 20t? You could be a freight driver with a loco pulling 1500t. Doing 70mph in the middle of nowhere in all weathers or doing 30mph around town when you can stop in seconds.
Bus drivers probably as previously mentioned do deserve more pay and respect but I wouldn't try and say a train driver is overpaid in comparison.

I agree. Also, anyone who can drive a car is already halfway toward being a bus driver if they were to apply, because as a car driver, we’re licensed, and as such “should” understand the Highway Code and be well versed with it. A trainee train driver will have no experience of driving trains, and likely won’t have any prior operational railway experience. It’s all learned from scratch.

 

[Amnesiac]

S

Sorry to soak your bonfire, automation is inevitable, it's just a matter of time, the attraction of reducing the wage bill is too tempting.

Not in our lifetime. They can't even sort HS2 properly, which is another conversation for another time but equally as big of an investment and infrastructure change as automating the entire rail network. Even the DLR isn't really driverless and was designed to be automated!

 

[whoosh]

Discussing with a colleague this morning who said it was a travesty that train drivers are paid over twice what bus drivers are paid -bus drivers have to manoevre their vehicle in conflicting traffic whereas train drivers just have to know when and how to start and stop. I couldn't contradict her - is a loco cab and more complicated that a bus cab these days? Is it just comparative union strength which is responsible?

Tell her to apply.

Tell her if she wants the money of a train driver carrying upto ten times the amount of people as a bus, then she'll have to work hard getting the job that pays twice as much.

 

[43066]

The latter isn’t *quite* true, signalling and control is something of a dark horse as well for certain people. As an aside, I’ve always thought NR signallers are significantly underpaid, especially those working in the busy centres.

This is true, to be fair. Also for various control type roles.

 

[Horizon22]

This is true, to be fair. Also for various control type roles.

Agreed - I have no desire to be a driver, am not one, and certainly haven't failed to be one!

Whilst not overpaid neccessarily, being relatively high-paid does have its own issues; drivers who actually really don't like the job but are enticed by the money, have the intelligence / skills / personality to pass the pyschometrics & interviews but can't handle the work-life balance / shifts / workload type and are then somewhat "trapped" due to the money.

 

[43066]

Agreed - I have no desire to be a driver, am not one, and certainly haven't failed to be one!

Yes - I was being a bit tongue in cheek there .

Whilst not overpaid neccessarily, being relatively high-paid does have its own issues; drivers who actually really don't like the job but are enticed by the money, have the intelligence / skills / personality to pass the pyschometrics & interviews but can't handle the work-life balance / shifts / workload type and are then somewhat "trapped" due to the money.

Agreed.

 

[Stigy]

Agreed - I have no desire to be a driver, am not one, and certainly haven't failed to be one!

Whilst not overpaid neccessarily, being relatively high-paid does have its own issues; drivers who actually really don't like the job but are enticed by the money, have the intelligence / skills / personality to pass the pyschometrics & interviews but can't handle the work-life balance / shifts / workload type and are then somewhat "trapped" due to the money.

To an extent I agree, but there are other jobs on the railway which transfer well from being a driver. Control/signalling/MOM roles can all pay on a par with what a driver gets. Largely still shift based, but arguably more sociable booking on/off times.

 

[Horizon22]

To an extent I agree, but there are other jobs on the railway which transfer well from being a driver. Control/signalling/MOM roles can all pay on a par with what a driver gets. Largely still shift based, but arguably more sociable booking on/off times.

Well indeed, but "driver" always seems to be the headline role in the media, gets the most attention in terms of applications and wider discussion, whilst other roles are secondary or rarely discussed in these forums.

Whilst you could walk in off the street as a signaller, it is somewhat less likely than a driver, and you're also unlikely to see people do that in control roles unless its from another applicable industry (emergency services, aviation etc.) which might have part of it whilst these other equally well-paid roles also require an equally niche set of skills and personality.

As you say one good thing is it tends to be a standard early/late/night or 12h pattern which is definitely more sociable.

 

[Magdalia]

I look at this from an economist's perspective.

The job can be awfully fatiguing and there's some shift swings that your body just can't adapt to. Not many are cut out for that assault.

Unsocial hours attract a significant premium. Most train drivers have to work nights, very few bus drivers have to work nights.

there's a reason it takes a bus driver a week to get a licence, a train driver 12-18months.

Jobs with high barriers to entry also attract a pay premium. The difference in time taken to complete training is very significant.

The rail industry higher barrier to entry also works in another way: it is much easier to set up a bus operating company than it is to set up a train operating company. As a result, it is easier for new bus operators to enter the market and undercut existing operators with lower wages and conditions for employees.

 

[387star]

Not in our lifetime. They can't even sort HS2 properly, which is another conversation for another time but equally as big of an investment and infrastructure change as automating the entire rail network. Even the DLR isn't really driverless and was designed to be automated!

Recently there was an article in the Evening Standard saying driverless trains are near impossible on the London Underground due to the narrow tunnels needing to be widened to house emergency escape routes

 

[ComUtoR]

Jobs with high barriers to entry also attract a pay premium.

Do we really have a "high barrier" ? Although there is a shift towards English/Maths as standard; there isn't really any other real barriers. Train Driving is a job where you don't need any qualifications and all training is provided. Yes, there is a rather soul crushing 'barrier' with the psychometric testing but the recruitment is relatively open.

 

[notadriver]

Can anyone think of a decent come back for me to say to my coach driver colleague (an ex teacher) who thinks I get £50k for striking and pushing some buttons ?

 

[Dieseldriver]

Can anyone think of a decent come back for me to say to my coach driver colleague (an ex teacher) who thinks I get £50k for striking and pushing some buttons ?

You could quite simply ask them why they’re not getting paid 50k for striking and pushing buttons?

 

[baz962]

Can anyone think of a decent come back for me to say to my coach driver colleague (an ex teacher) who thinks I get £50k for striking and pushing some buttons ?

Remind them that when they break down, they can sit in a layby and have a smoke.

 

[43066]

Can anyone think of a decent come back for me to say to my coach driver colleague (an ex teacher) who thinks I get £50k for striking and pushing some buttons ?

“Those who can’t, teach”.

 

[whoosh]

Can anyone think of a decent come back for me to say to my coach driver colleague (an ex teacher) who thinks I get £50k for striking and pushing some buttons ?

"I can't believe you've thrown in scribbling on a white board from 9 'till 3 with an hour for lunch, to play with a steering wheel for less money. And worse hours.

Are you a bit bitter about it...?

I hate going on strike. It's tough. I have to turn off the heating in my swimming pool at home."

 

[16.19]

Discussing with a colleague this morning who said it was a travesty that train drivers are paid over twice what bus drivers are paid -bus drivers have to manoevre their vehicle in conflicting traffic whereas train drivers just have to know when and how to start and stop. I couldn't contradict her - is a loco cab and more complicated that a bus cab these days? Is it just comparative union strength which is responsible?

Here we go

 

[The North Briton]

Have we had the relative abilities and responsibilities of ultra large crude carrier Masters yet?

Ah, but doesn't the pilot do the difficult bits?

 

[Llanigraham]

The latter isn’t *quite* true, signalling and control is something of a dark horse as well for certain people. As an aside, I’ve always thought NR signallers are significantly underpaid, especially those working in the busy centres.

A comment that was made by several "friends" when I started as a signaller was "Well all you do is press buttons all day! So why do you earn so much?"
They were quite surprised when I showed them photos of the Box and all it's levers and buttons and then a photo of all the Rule Books I was expected to know inside and out, and no, I wouldn't be coming out for a meal on Saturday night because I had to leave for work at 0415 for my Sunday morning shift.

 

[ExRes]

Ah, but doesn't the pilot do the difficult bits?

Quieten down there please, you could have all the anchors down by midnight ........

 

[Magdalia]

Do we really have a "high barrier" ? Although there is a shift towards English/Maths as standard; there isn't really any other real barriers. Train Driving is a job where you don't need any qualifications and all training is provided. Yes, there is a rather soul crushing 'barrier' with the psychometric testing but the recruitment is relatively open.

Yes. Economically it is the time that training takes that makes the barrier to entry, not the entry requirements to get on the training programme.

 

[ILoveLamp]

The amount of double deckers that have the top section driven into a low bridge... enough said

 

[AverageJoe]

I’ve been a bus driver and now on trains.

Anyone with a car licence is already more than half way there to driving a bus, in fact I’d say dealing with passengers was the hardest part.

Driving trains takes a lot more skill, knowledge and concentration and I consider it more difficult.

Bus drivers should be paid more just like many other sectors should.

Anyone in a safety critical role carrying 100+ passengers and working awkward shifts should be well paid imo.

 

[Seejwalker]

Don’t even start me on if they’re overpaid compared to signallers hahaha

 

[66701GBRF]

Like with a lot of jobs of this nature. You are paid for what you have to know, and what you have to know (and do) when it goes wrong. Not necessarily what you have to physically do day to day. If your bus driver friend thinks driver's are over paid send them a link to the rule book as a start.

 

[T-Karmel]

Can anyone think of a decent come back for me to say to my coach driver colleague (an ex teacher) who thinks I get £50k for striking and pushing some buttons ?

I beg you pardon? I'm on £70k!

 

[Watershed]

The level of train drivers' pay has little to do with the (numerous) challenges of the job, and everything to do with the basics of economics - supply and demand.

There is a continuous and relatively high demand for drivers, as train operators simply can't run any sort of service without them, and people continuously retire and move to other roles or companies. Crucially, there is also competition between train operators for qualified drivers, so operators would haemorrage drivers if they didn't pay competitively with other operators.

On the other side of the equation, it takes a long time to train drivers, and it's not possible to obtain or maintain the necessary competence unless you actually work for a train operator, so people can't just pay for their own training (as happens in the airline industry). Therefore, even though hundreds or thousands of people apply for each role, the supply is low.

High demand and low supply - together with unions ensuring that train drivers act in unison rather than as individuals - quite foreseeably results in high pay.

So it's not really a question of train drivers being "overpaid"; they are simply paid the market rate. And other roles have a lower market rate because the circumstances are different.

You might not agree with it morally, but this is simply a manifestation of capitalism in action!

 

[baz962]

Don’t even start me on if they’re overpaid compared to signallers hahaha

Signallers are definitely overpaid. Stare at TV screens all day and drink tea