When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[Harpers Tate]

I wonder why Esk Valley survived?

Local "hardship". Namely the relative inacessibility by buses of many of the places served. It was key to much of the "Beeching" closures that alternatives were, or could be made, available, and indeed the (then) National Bus Company received subsidies to enhance services (eg between Malton and Whitby) for a fixed period after closure (5 years IIRC).

 

[yorksrob]

That's lovely for you but most people will not think that way. Someone living in Redcar who fancies taking the children to Whitby on Saturday will look up train times and go "It's two hours to Whitby by train with a change or it's forty-five minutes in the car. Kids, let's get in the car!". The same is true across the Teesside.

Not as lovely for me, nor is it for the other end to end passengers when the train's full and standing.

A lot of families prefer the car because they can take all the junk with them. There are also a lot of people who travel without families or cars for whom public transport is preferable, and as you've illustrated yourself, the bus isn't stunnungly atractive in comparison to the train.

Of course the big difference between the two isn't that Middlesbrough is at one end compared with Ashford it's that you could leave somewhere like Rye and then be in London in just over an hour. Meanwhile the train from Whitby in that time would still be at least twenty odd minutes away from Middlesbrough. Heck you could potentially be in Brussels or Paris before our intrepid passenger from Whitby has even made it to London! The Marshlink has the advantage

of being one change from London. Whitby doesn't.

The Marshlink is in the London commuter area (and it held its own in terms of passenger usage when it London was an hour + to Charing Cross) so you would expect it to have a quick trip to London.

Given good connections and a decent interval service, someone from Whitby could still have a reasonable journey to Newcastle (or even Leeds or Manchester).

 

[Marton]

Nunthorpe was never Ormesby. That was Marton.

it is actually situated in what was Ormesby parish, but nearer Marton.

 

[ainsworth74]

Nunthorpe was never Ormesby. That was Marton.

it is actually situated in what was Ormesby parish, but nearer Marton.

Aha I knew one of them had changed their name but didn't have time to look it up properly. Thank you

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Interestingly just looked at getting to Whitby had they beaten Stourbridge for Welling (if they beat Eastleigh).

It wouldn’t be possible to get there for kick-off (you’d have to drive to York/Leeds) and if we could, we’d have to go to Scarborough and get the bus.

Suffice to say such late journey options from London of a Saturday are just shocking.

 

[deltic08]

IMO the line should be closed east of Nunthorpe, except for any parts the NYMR might be willing to take over.

Having recently visited the area, I observed that Great Ayton has frequent bus services, which go to the centre of the village (the station is a mile away). The villages further along the line have perfectly adequate roads nowadays and could be provided with a subsidised minibus service for a tiny proportion of the subsidy needed to maintain the railway.

For end to end journeys between Middlesbrough and Whitby, the direct bus along the A171 is far quicker, and it might well be commercially viable to increase the frequency without the subsidised competition from the railway.

You can't have visited the Esk Valley then as Great Ayton is not in this valley. The villages are in the valley and the main road to Whitby is on high ground where the roads are impassible in Winter. That is why schoolchildren go by train to Whitby because it is both faster in Summer and more reliable in Winter as it avoids steep roads in and out of villages.

There’s little wrong with the track. And everything wrong with the alignment. It’s called the Esk Valley Line for a reason.

So is the Calder Valley line for a reason but that doesn't mean 45mph and below speed limits. Alignment is better than 45mph between Battersby and Grosmont so if as you say the track is in good condition why not allow 60mph where possible. It is only vehicle crossings restricting rail to 10mph that are the Achilles heel. Some are ungated crossings for access to only one house. It would probably be cheaper to purchase the houses when they next come on the market and demolish them or only have pedestrian access and close the vehicular access than upgrade them to barriers.

 

[deltic08]

Just read the article in Modern Railways. Sounds like they are already spending too much on the line - a MOM on one service everyday!
Mentions opening a Roseberry Parkway - surely this has to replace the current Great Ayrton?! Last thing the Whitby people need is yet another stop!

Yes I agree, but this is intended to be a P&R for Guisborough not Ayton with Nunthorpe terminators extended to Parkway.

 

[deltic08]

The car is better and more convenient for most and there are good bus links between the main settlements. It is not unused but it will never see enough usage to warrant significant expenditure.

There already is one and they've been active for donkeys years.

http://www.eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/index.html

Good bus links? I wouldn't say good. Between main settlements yes but that doesn't include villages in the valley as far out as Egton or even Danby.

Just read the article in Modern Railways. Sounds like they are already spending too much on the line - a MOM on one service everyday!
Mentions opening a Roseberry Parkway - surely this has to replace the current Great Ayrton?! Last thing the Whitby people need is yet another stop!

What is a MOM? Someone who has children?

 

[ainsworth74]

Good bus links? I wouldn't say good. Between main settlements yes but that doesn't include villages in the valley as far out as Egton or even Danby.

Sure. But there's about three cats, a couple of sheep and maybe the odd person out in those villages and guess what? Nearly everyone that lives there will have a car and even if you had a London Overground level of service would probably mostly drive anyway. Particularly considering that some of the stations don't even really serve the settlement they claim to!

There is no justification for closing the line but you're not going to find a justification for spending significant sums on upgrades from looking at the intermediate villages.

What is a MOM? Someone who has children?

Mobile Operations Manager. They're basically Network Rail's first responders to an incident and have all sorts of skills in their kit bag to help deal with and recover from incidents (whether it's something fairly benign like a loss of points detection or something more significant like a derailment).

 

[yorksrob]

Good bus links? I wouldn't say good. Between main settlements yes but that doesn't include villages in the valley as far out as Egton or even Danby.

Indeed. Even end to end, a seventy minute bus journey doesn't strike me as particularly enticing.

 

[Bald Rick]

So is the Calder Valley line for a reason but that doesn't mean 45mph and below speed limits. Alignment is better than 45mph between Battersby and Grosmont so if as you say the track is in good condition why not allow 60mph where possible. It is only vehicle crossings restricting rail to 10mph that are the Achilles heel. Some are ungated crossings for access to only one house. It would probably be cheaper to purchase the houses when they next come on the market and demolish them or only have pedestrian access and close the vehicular access than upgrade them to barriers.

The alignment is absolutely not fit for 60 mph throughout between Battersby and Grosmont. There are some sections on that stretch that would be, but equally there are plenty of stretches that are not. Indeed, there are some sections with alignment not fit for 45mph, hence some of the speed restrictions.

Also, as mentioned previously, there is only one level crossing that has a speed restriction of 10mph for passenger trains, and that is in one direction only, and right next to a station.

It might well be cheaper to buy out each property than to upgrade to barriers at some crossings, but spending half a million+ to save, at best, half a minute, on a section of track that would be used by, at best, 200,000 passengers a year, is not going to cut the mustard.

 

[deltic08]

The alignment is absolutely not fit for 60 mph throughout between Battersby and Grosmont. There are some sections on that stretch that would be, but equally there are plenty of stretches that are not. Indeed, there are some sections with alignment not fit for 45mph, hence some of the speed restrictions.

There absolutely are places where 60mph is possible between Battersby and Grosmont. I didn't say throughout, I said where possible.
Removal of low speed limits is not all about saving time. It is about unnecessary brake wear and increased fuel consumption that adds up over time. Going faster means not going slower.
This weekend is Whitby Goth Weekend. Visitors are expected to spend £1m between them towards the local economy. I wonder how many arrived by train and how crowded were they? Did Northern anticipate this by providing longer trains I wonder?

 

[Greybeard33]

You can't have visited the Esk Valley then as Great Ayton is not in this valley. The villages are in the valley and the main road to Whitby is on high ground where the roads are impassible in Winter. That is why schoolchildren go by train to Whitby because it is both faster in Summer and more reliable in Winter as it avoids steep roads in and out of villages.

I have driven along the Esk Valley and I am well aware that Great Ayton is not in it! My point was that Great Ayton is the only sizeable settlement near the line between Nunthorpe and Whitby, and is well provided with bus services that actually serve the centre of the village, unlike the railway.

Do you know how many schoolkids regularly take the train to Whitby? And how many days last winter all the roads from the Esk Valley to Whitby were impassable yet the train ran to schedule?

 

[deltic08]

I have driven along the Esk Valley and I am well aware that Great Ayton is not in it! My point was that Great Ayton is the only sizeable settlement near the line between Nunthorpe and Whitby, and is well provided with bus services that actually serve the centre of the village, unlike the railway.

Do you know how many schoolkids regularly take the train to Whitby? And how many days last winter all the roads from the Esk Valley to Whitby were impassable yet the train ran to schedule?

But can you go from Ayton to Whitby by through bus or any of the villages in between?
I know it is more than one road bus as there was talk of a 3 coach unit being needed not so many years back.
I don't think last Winter had any affect on roads or rail but the Beast from the East did disrupt roads the year before. I can find out definitely on Monday.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

What's wrong with the X93, it's faster and much more frequent (every 30 minutes)

 

[markindurham]

Not sure whether to laugh or cry here - a supposed pro-rail forum having folk advocating using alternative transport instead of the train.

Freedom of speech, yes, one gets that, but even so...

 

[70014IronDuke]

I was referring to a suggestion, or even an implication, from another contributor that linespeeds should be improved because they delay the NR inspection trains (generally referred to as yellow trains due to their livery).

I suspect said train makes two visits a year to the line, and I was stating that using the potential benefit to the inspection trains as a contributory reason for upgrading the line would not help the case in any significant way. The phrase ‘doth not butter the parsnips’ (which I have stolen freely, and without credit, from the comedian Joe Lycett, although it may not be his own work) is a similar phrase to ‘doesn’t cut the mustard’.

Sorry for trying to be a bit too verbose!

Ah. OK. Understood now - quite agree. Thanks.

... Heck even remodelling Middlesbrough station (which would indirectly benefit the Esk Valley Line) would make more sense financially than sticking another passing loop in the Esk Valley. ...

Could you elaborate on this one pl?

Great Ayton station doesn't serve Great Ayton! It's about a mile down the road!

Indeed. I suppose moving, or a new platform close to the village, would cost too many millions these days to justify?

 

[Meerkat]

Not sure whether to laugh or cry here - a supposed pro-rail forum having folk advocating using alternative transport instead of the train.

Freedom of speech, yes, one gets that, but even so...

Pro rail can be wanting quality over quantity, having rail concentrate on the things it does well rather than just wanting as many miles of railway as possible.

 

[yorksrob]

Pro rail can be wanting quality over quantity, having rail concentrate on the things it does well rather than just wanting as many miles of railway as possible.

Ah, the old Beeching fallacy. All turned out to be nonsense of course, because people tend to want a train to their destination, not some town miles away the management decide is profitable to serve.

 

[Meerkat]

Ah, the old Beeching fallacy. All turned out to be nonsense of course, because people tend to want a train to their destination, not some town miles away the management decide is profitable to serve.

This isn’t the thread for a Beeching argument but he was mainly correct. Loads of the closed stations weren’t convenient for their towns/villages and had minimal services.
Bus services not being funded the same way as basket case rail services is not a good argument for rail subsidy.

 

[yorksrob]

This isn’t the thread for a Beeching argument but he was mainly correct. Loads of the closed stations weren’t convenient for their towns/villages and had minimal services.
Bus services not being funded the same way as basket case rail services is not a good argument for rail subsidy.

Whitby station, on the other hand, is extremely convenient for Whitby, so such an argument doesn't run.

Railways are good at getting people to where they want to go in real life. Not some fantasy world dreamt up by transport planners.

 

[Meerkat]

Whitby station, on the other hand, is extremely convenient for Whitby, so such an argument doesn't run.

Railways are good at getting people to where they want to go in real life. Not some fantasy world dreamt up by transport planners.

The line clearly isn’t good at getting people to Whitby and the Esk Valley or it would be busier.
The same applies to many rural lines.
And even if they were ‘good’ that doesn’t mean buses couldn’t do it better.

 

[deltic08]

Just get the X93, it's faster and much more frequent (every 30 minutes)

As I have said before on this forum, not everybody can travel by bus. I flew with the Macaws and Red Arrows in the 1960s but the only time ever that I have felt motion sick is on the Ripon-Harrogate bus!

 

[ainsworth74]

But can you go from Ayton to Whitby by through bus or any of the villages in between?

Not really but, again, the overwhelming majority of people in those villages have cars or already have a link to their actual most useful major centre of population via bus.

I know it is more than one road bus as there was talk of a 3 coach unit being needed not so many years back.

And guess what! 99% of the people that mean a three car unit would be useful get on at stations between Middlesbrough and Nunthorpe. Because that's where the demand exists.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry here - a supposed pro-rail forum having folk advocating using alternative transport instead of the train.

I am pro-rail but I'm also in favour of not throwing the limited available funding resource at a line where the benefits are minor compared to throwing them at various other projects which a much higher rate of return for that investment. You wan to triple or quadruple the UK rail budget then we can have a conversation about upgrading the Esk Valley Line extensively but that seems highly unlikely no matter what government is in power.

Could you elaborate on this one pl?

Middlesbrough requires remodelling to enable full bi-direction working through the exisitng two platforms and probably the construction of a third platform (the latter is part of a local authority scheme see here). The current layout is quite inflexible which can cause problems and can cause late running services to snowball and knock on delays into other trains.

Indeed. I suppose moving, or a new platform close to the village, would cost too many millions these days to justify?

You could move it so it's a little bit closer but we're talking about a village of about 5,000 people. Surely there is another town out there that doesn't have a railway station that would benefit more from the spending to build Great Ayton another station?

 

[deltic08]

The line clearly isn’t good at getting people to Whitby and the Esk Valley or it would be busier.
The same applies to many rural lines.
And even if they were ‘good’ that doesn’t mean buses couldn’t do it better.

This is utter nonsense. The railway is a fantastic way at getting people to Whitby. It is the infrastructure that is inadequate now allowing more trains, especially charters that can carry 600 at a time, that have difficulty reaching and stabling in Whitby. As has been said before, the line via Malton and Pickering should also have been left open by Beeching as this was a better route from the south and greater population centres, but he didn't have the nounce to understand this. He didn't understand contributory income either otherwise more seaside branchlines would have remained open.
Tell me how buses could do it better then? Certainly not better for the school children otherwise NYCC would send them by bus instead.

 

[deltic08]

And guess what! 99% of the people that mean a three car unit would be useful get on at stations between Middlesbrough and Nunthorpe. Because that's where the demand exists.

My answer was to a question about how many school children are carried needing at least two carriage trains not about Boro'-Nunthorpe as the flow is in the wrong direction at these times of day.
If flow between Nunthorpe and Boro' was that good surely the service would be more than 1tph?

 

[Ayman Ilham]

As I have said before on this forum, not everybody can travel by bus. I flew with the Macaws and Red Arrows in the 1960s but the only time ever that I have felt motion sick is on the Ripon-Harrogate bus!

Good point, which is why the railway needs improvement so it can actually be faster and better than the bus services! People need a reason to use the train over the bus so they can have regular service on the line and not just 4 trains a day!

 

[scarby]

The snag with Whitby really stems from it being the survivor from a much more extensive network - as mentioned, it only survived because it was deemed closing it would cause "severe hardship" to some communities.

At least the increase in services from next month offers a welcome addition so the service doesn't grind to a halt in the early evening.

Whitby station has also much improved - it really looked in a sorry state some years ago, and is now neat and tidy with the welcomed re-instatement of a second platform.

The NYMR services also transport bona fide day trippers to Whitby from (mostly) Pickering, even if admittedly not that many use public transport to get to Pickering if they're not already staying there.

 

[markindurham]

Good point, which is why the railway needs improvement so it can actually be faster and better than the bus services! People need a reason to use the train over the bus so they can have regular service on the line and not just 4 trains a day!

So how do you propose speeding up the route? There was a fool who wanted to reinstate Malton to Whitby, basically demolishing the NYMR, who reckoned that tilting trains could be used...

It's a rural route serving several small stations, running through a twisty valley. It's simply not practical to speed it up much.

 

[yorksrob]

Not really but, again, the overwhelming majority of people in those villages have cars or already have a link to their actual most useful major centre of population via bus.



And guess what! 99% of the people that mean a three car unit would be useful get on at stations between Middlesbrough and Nunthorpe. Because that's where the demand exists.



I am pro-rail but I'm also in favour of not throwing the limited available funding resource at a line where the benefits are minor compared to throwing them at various other projects which a much higher rate of return for that investment. You wan to triple or quadruple the UK rail budget then we can have a conversation about upgrading the Esk Valley Line extensively but that seems highly unlikely no matter what government is in power.



Middlesbrough requires remodelling to enable full bi-direction working through the exisitng two platforms and probably the construction of a third platform (the latter is part of a local authority scheme see here). The current layout is quite inflexible which can cause problems and can cause late running services to snowball and knock on delays into other trains.



You could move it so it's a little bit closer but we're talking about a village of about 5,000 people. Surely there is another town out there that doesn't have a railway station that would benefit more from the spending to build Great Ayton another station?

I've seen passengers at stations between Nunthorpe and Middlesborough left behind because they couldn't get on the train towards Whitby. The capacity is needed all along the route.